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Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted April 14, 2003 05:05 PM |
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By the way Tony --
The fact that we're concerned about the looting DOES NOT mean we think Iraquis are stupid, ill-advanced, backward, incapable, or any such thing. Being a tribal sort myself, I resent the very implication that your inference implies. So stop picking on PH or you will have to be punished. Tangle with him you have to tangle with me 'cause I'm his kid sister dude. 
Let me elaborate. I would throw you the challenge of imagining what would happen in Denver or Los Angeles if the police forces suddenly vanished into thin air. In fact we already know what happens when there is unrest here. Except that here, instead of just looting, we Americans tend to single out a few people, brand them Pariahs and try to beat them to death with rocks and sticks... and this happens even when the police are standing right there. Oh yeah. And don't forget, when we're through looting buildings over here we tend to burn them down too just for the fun of it.
Sure don't see any of that going on over there now do we.
So the fact that we're concerned about the looting should be taken as no insult to anyone, not even you.
So anyway, just what IS your point Tony????????
(Sorry if I'm sounding a little crabby -- it's just that I'm, well, a little crabby today. I really am usually very nice. Just ask the others.
But you really do sound like you're picking a fight over nothing with all that "Liberal" reference stuff when there's nothing to argue about. It's just that the whole reason I came to this forum was because I gave up trying with my "Conservative" relatives around here because every other word was "Liberal" this and "Conservsative" that and everybody was so dang busy trying to pidgeonhole every single little comment that nobody was listening to anything anybody else had to say or why. PLEASE, pretty please, don't get people started on that here. It's just not productive.)
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bort
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Discarded foreskin of morality
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posted April 14, 2003 05:54 PM |
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Well, seeing as how the US and the UK (and Australia and Poland and apparently now a few Spanish troops as well) currently control most of Iraq, I'd say that the current answer to the original question is : No.
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FIREOFTRUTH
Bad-mannered
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posted April 14, 2003 06:50 PM |
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can we really
economically speaking we are in bad shape how dare the president ask for money to go to war when we need it for schools, jobs, hospitals, social security for the retirees. we are in a deficit and how the hell are we going to give money out to the iraqi people to help them when we are bad going to worst here economically speaking. we spend so much money in the military and on wars instead of what really matters like education. this country is so ridiculous war like country. anyways bush is out of control he is already threatening syria that if they dont stop helping iraq he will have to attack them too that is just stupid. something like that could turn the whole middle-east against us. how about north korea they already now how warmonger like bush is and they are not playing. if they hear anything bad coming from the u.s. like sanctions they will take that as a declaration of war. believe me people we dont want to go to war with them because it will turn into another vietnam and thousands of soldiers will come back in body bags. but hey if you still want to support the worst president in u.s. history go ahead. go and support all of his wars but they will come out of your pocket because of taxes and other deductions that will increase because of the bad economy. bush ---enter swear words here---.
~Edited by Nidhgrin~
FireofThruth,
Please limit the use of swear words, you're giving me a hard time cleaning up your posts after you log off...
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FIREOFTRUTH
Bad-mannered
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posted April 14, 2003 06:59 PM |
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we are the weapons of mass destruction
we still havent even seen any of those chemical or biological bombs where are they were they even there in the first place or was it another mess-up from the u.s. to use that as an excuse to go and try to conquer iraq if they really wanted to liberate a country from a dictator then why didnt they go to cuba or colombia but since there is oil in iraq it is all a matter of profit. the u.s. wont just go in and leave they will expect a payment in return from free or really cheap oil thats how. i just hope that since we want them to have a democracy another dictator comes up and the people vote for him and he's probably going to play it off until a certain time that he will proclaim his hate to the u.s. and the u.s. ends up with nothing for their greed i'll be laughing the day that happens. this is just the beginning of something ugly.
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted April 14, 2003 07:44 PM |
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You have just repeated Donald Rumsfeld.
I have? *contemplates suicide*
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But these troops are NOT policemen. They may have to help out in the short run, but then if they were already, arent you the same guys who would be screaming that they are there to conquer and control?
Point 1: If the troops on the ground are not policemen, the MP's in the army are. They should be enforcing some law and order backed by "grunts" if extra emphasis is needed.
Point 2: The british army has long trained it's troops for subtle but firm control of civilians through our experiences in Northern Ireland. Some hint of using similar tactics/troops would have been nice. The troops sent to Iraq are not ones usually associated with NI, they are assault troops. Their job is all but over now.
Point 3: I can recognise the difference between enforcing some temporary stabilty through military arms (done carefully and diplomatically of course) and conquering and controling thank you.
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Havent enough of these "innocents" already payed with their lives while Saddam was in power. Now some government buildings and some private homes of the regime's sympathisers are raided and you equate this as being on the same level or worse???????
First piece of advice READ WHAT I SAY! I said and I quote myself here....
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I'm not saying it's as bad as sadam's regime
See? Missed it or just blatantly ignored it?
Secondly, this is chaos, ineviatably people will use such chaos to get back at old enemies, Hussain supporters or not. It's and old trick you can trace to WWII, the Inquisition Witch trials and beyond. I did not say that all of hussain's supporters were innocents, I referred to the fact that in chaos and anarchy innocent people die just as often as guilty.
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I guess you are just saying this to show how you feel about America.
Yes I criticise MY OWN GOVERNMENT to get at america, you're a damn genius! *rolls eyes*
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How many millions of American lives have been spent on foriegn soil for their freedom?
If memory serves me it was 210,000 in WWII, less than 100,000 in WWI and a few other wars with less than 100,000. France and britain (and her empire) lost over a million men in WWI and Britain (and empire) alone lost over 220,000 in WWII. Don't try playing the numbers game, it won't work. Nor will whining about how we europeans won't tow the american line all the time because we "owe" you for WWII.
Do you think you might let us off after a time? What 100 years so we can get off these comments before I die? Better not make it 220 odd years or you'll still owe france for winning the revolution for you.
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SirDunco
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted April 14, 2003 08:10 PM |
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Gothmog,
Again you can't compare the US and Britsh army to the Nazis(eventhough i'm storngly against them I don't to such extreems). The reasons why people in europe greeted them were: 1. some of the people actualy belived the Nazi theory
2. Better to live then to die in a comcentrations camp...
Um yet the Iraqis(liberated ones) say that they want the americans out. They say they want to rule themselves themself. So it isn't some much of "greeting" the coaliton forces as they see an oportunity to set up their own goverment and administration.
Peacemaker, I see that you compared those too spontaneusly but persoanly the thing reminded me more of the fall of communsitm when people took down the satues of Stalin and Breznev...
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Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted April 14, 2003 08:48 PM |
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Starting at the bottom going up...
Yes, Sir Dunco, perhaps your analogy is better...
PH, well obviously you don't need me rushing to your defense (I already knew this of course) but as usual, you are in possession of more facts than practically anybody here!!!!!
FOT -- I also share many of your concerns. I too have thought we could very easily start WWIII by doing what we have done.
bort -- just what WAS the original question, anyway???
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TonyJT2471
Bad-mannered
Adventuring Hero
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posted April 14, 2003 11:01 PM |
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PH...American lives
I think you are forgetting there is more to the world than just Europe that American soldiers have fought, ones still alive today to recant the stories. No number game here. Don't worry, I'm sure more U.S. soldiers will end up dying over there again in the same fashion. Thanks for belittling the sacrafice they made...(sarcasm).
By the way, at least when France overturned the last major of the revolution, we were thankfull. (And yes, we all know France at the time had other objectives like opposing Britian then just some ideolougue of freedom, but that was besides the point for the US, like I said, we were gratefull.) And I am STILL gratefull for that and apreciate it....THANK YOU FRANCE!!!!!
So it's ok for France to intervene in a war of liberation, but not the U.S. and U.K., etc....?
Now come on, let's be reasonable and true to at least ourselves here guys, you know I'm not out to get anyone here, I'm just stating my opinion based on facts here.
And yes, I know the Iraqi's don't want the coalition forces there, and they will be gone soon enough, its just that they were happy to see Saddam gone and would trade that for a few weeks of coalition troops being in their country (we tried to scare Saddam out, but that didn't work, paper and pen are only so mighty).....we all know that just a few months after WW2 even the French were sick of the obnoxious US soldiers :-) so I could understand.
I didn't come to this thread to start a fight, pidgeonhole anyone, or anything else for that matter.
Just the fax, ma'am! (Sends everyone a facsimile.)
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The_Gootch
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Kneel Before Me Sons of HC!!
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posted April 14, 2003 11:10 PM |
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It's bad to play numbers when you don't know them
Lemme see...about 300k in WWII...less than 100k in WWI...58K in Vietnam...53K in Korea...nothing else even comes close to adding up to a million Tony.
If you want to get that magic number of 1 million american lives lost in wars, you're gonna have to include our own civil war(about 660k).
In all fairness, take a look at the numbers of Russian, German, French, and British troops and civilians that died in WW II alone. You'll find those numbers absolutely mind-boggling.
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Wolfman
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Insomniac
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posted April 14, 2003 11:16 PM |
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Hey everyone!
I have been away for a few days and I watched the news, but I was wondering if anyone else had heard on CNN about WWIV?
They keep saying things like is this "Is this WWIV?" But the real question is: What happened to WWIII?
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bort
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Discarded foreskin of morality
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posted April 14, 2003 11:23 PM |
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The original question was "Attack Iraq?"
There is a conservative think tank version of history in which WWIII was the cold war and WWIV has been going on basically since the collapse of Soviet Bloc communism (some say earlier) but we (the west) simply didn't know it. The argument is that terrorists from several places around the world declared war on the US and Western Europe many years ago but that we didn't realize it was a war until recently.
I'd refer to that as a load of bovine feces.
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bort
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Discarded foreskin of morality
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posted April 14, 2003 11:25 PM |
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Quote:
Lemme see...about 300k in WWII...less than 100k in WWI...58K in Vietnam...53K in Korea...nothing else even comes close to adding up to a million Tony.
Don't forget a couple of hundred between the two gulf wars, a few dozen or so in Afghanistan, Private Bob in Grenada and Private Jim in Panama. Oh and a whole bunch died of the flu or something like that in the Spanish American War.
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Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted April 15, 2003 12:08 AM |
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bort --
Oh, THAT original question. You meant THE original question. <HEE HEE> I thought that question had grown academically cold and that we were now participating in "The Thread Formerly Known as Attack Iraq..."
TONY --
Like I said, sorry for being so crabby. Far be it for me to chastize you like that since I'm usually crawling all over everybody to play nice in our little Monday-Morning Sandbox here.
GOOTCH --
Hey buddy! Missed you! Don't you have some unfinished business with a French Polar Bear or something???
*Gootch sees Peacemaker, turn & runs fast in the other direction toward New Shop as she sprints after him geekily with open arms, making little Gootch-smootch noises*
--WAIT!!! COME BACK!! WHERE ARE YOU GOING???
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted April 15, 2003 12:22 AM |
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Quote:
I think you are forgetting there is more to the world than just Europe that American soldiers have fought, ones still alive today to recant the stories. No number game here. Don't worry, I'm sure more U.S. soldiers will end up dying over there again in the same fashion. Thanks for belittling the sacrafice they made...(sarcasm).
My point is not belittling american involvement, my point is that all those who died fighting for freedom in various wars down the ages (and esp WWII) died for the freedom of the people of the world. They did NOT die so their descendants could spend the next 60-100 years acting like this sacrifice means we should forever moderate our genuine cirticism, or forever ensure we are following america on foreign policy in case we get accused of "betraying" those who died.
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By the way, at least when France overturned the last major of the revolution, we were thankfull
Eh? What exactly counts as thankful in your mind! Europe has spent the last 60 years remembering the dead and living combatants of ALL nations from WWI and WWII and keeping the graves of british, canadian, polish, american etc troops in pristine condition. Every year events like Arnhem and the D-Day landings are comemorated with great reverence by those europeans who were liberated by them.
So I guess your main objection is that we didn't send you a damn statue huh? My sincerest appologies, my nation should feel ashamed of itself. Please let's get a little more realistic huh? What would you WANT us to do more? Have you ever even BEEN to france or europe to see the ceremonies of rememberance? Or even stood at war cemetaries kept perfect by caring europeans? The resepect shown in my personal experience by people like the dutch for relatives of allied soliders was humbling.
My main objection to the likes of the "you'd be speaking german if it wasn't for us so why are you now defying us" type of comments is:
1) When last I checked none of the european nations sat on their backsides and let america do all the fighting for them. All europeans helped fight WWII for example, and to make that kind of comment surely belittles their contribution?
2) Those that fought and died did so for democracy, not to allow americans to remind europeans every few minutes of how much we owe you. It's insulting to those who fought and died to suggest such a thing.
But anyway.......
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So it's ok for France to intervene in a war of liberation, but not the U.S. and U.K., etc....?
Oh dear, find me a quote of mine to support such a statement before you atribute such thoughts to me.
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Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted April 15, 2003 12:29 AM |
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(Returns, out of breath)
*Damn, he got away again...*
Anyway, I have my own useless statistics to toss in here -- yes, Soviet Russia alone lost 23 million (nearly a whole generation of men) and unfortunately two thirds of its industrial infrastructure during WWII. They were fighting with rocks and sticks and bare feet wrapped in rags in the snow a bunch of the time.
I'm afraid Gootch and bort are right; we Americans are really comparatively a bunch of softies. Sometimes I wonder if we would be as eager to seek war as a solution if we'd had some of the same experiences as others.
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Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted April 15, 2003 12:38 AM |
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Oh, PH! We were posting at the same time. Thanks for expressing a particular little pet peeve of mine. Anybody who thinks this little escapade is not largely motivated by American self interest and that the whole dang world owes us something just cause we're so perfect and have saved the world singlehandedly for the umpteenth time just isn't playing witha full deck.
My, I am a bit loose-tongued today, aren't I?
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Wolfman
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Insomniac
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posted April 15, 2003 12:48 AM |
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You do seem to be talking a lot today.
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Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted April 15, 2003 02:28 AM |
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Wolfman!
--love the new signature! Aristotle -- a man after my own heart (or so I'd just love to think...)
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privatehudson
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Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted April 15, 2003 02:42 AM |
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Quote:
a man after my own heart Quote:
Funny that, so were the aztec priests of old........ 
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Lith-Maethor
Honorable
Legendary Hero
paid in Coin and Cleavage
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posted April 15, 2003 05:20 PM |
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thinks for a second
Quote:
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a man after my own heart
Funny that, so were the aztec priests of old........
HAHAHAHAHAHA muhahahahahahah you made my day, man...
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