|
|
TonyJT2471
Bad-mannered
Adventuring Hero
|
posted April 18, 2003 11:18 AM |
|
|
LOL
Quote:
It must take some realy evil man to do what Saddam has! To starve kids that has no gain to it! I wish I could cut his throat myself!
I think that's perhaps the most reasonable post on this entire thread.
____________
|
|
grunancross
Famous Hero
King of the Underdark
|
|
posted April 18, 2003 11:57 AM |
|
|
Heck yah I mean people say Bush is Good...Bush is bad,....Blah blah blah can of horse **** who gives a crap the real thing is that bum sadam...so damn insane He should of never been alot a passport to life he is a disgrace nothing good came from him nothing and when they get him the whloe world will be a better place
Grunan Cross
____________
|
|
TonyJT2471
Bad-mannered
Adventuring Hero
|
posted April 18, 2003 12:02 PM |
|
|
Look out Grunan
You suggested that the war has nothing to do with US greed and agression and just about how awfull Saddam is.
They're gonna be after you soon.
____________
|
|
grunancross
Famous Hero
King of the Underdark
|
|
posted April 18, 2003 12:09 PM |
|
|
I think I dont care who kills his *** as long as he is dead people who dont value life dont deserve to live...bush is at least getting some one to do it...so in the end all the lives that he wasted will have peace..**** that dude him and hitler are like maybe alot a like
____________
|
|
Khayman
Promising
Famous Hero
Underachiever
|
posted April 18, 2003 12:25 PM |
|
|
Tony,
My Commander-In-Chief needs your home address. 
On a serious note, I always look forward to viewing this topic. Great posts from everyone, by the way. In my limited internet access time, I always enjoy reading everyone's thoughts and opinions. You are all very intelligent and bring about many valid points. Very cool!
Take care and be safe. See you in a few months.
____________
"You must gather your party before venturing forth."
|
|
TonyJT2471
Bad-mannered
Adventuring Hero
|
|
posted April 18, 2003 12:39 PM |
|
|
Lets see what people were posting a while back....
Quote:
ummm...PH, the czechs have decided not to support an attack..the govermnet that is.
-Me:"Oh no, the Czecks won't help the U.S., U.K., etc, well, better forget about the whole thing, we really needed them  "-
But here is a small food for thought...the ONLY country in the WORLD where over 50% of the popluation supports the war is no other that 'the great imperialisticly, capitalisticly corrupted, can't teel nazis from people, states of america'
-Me:"Better check some polls again buddy. Hmmm, I make an offhand comment about nazi's and I get bamboozeled by some HC person who wasn't even invilved in the discussion and this guy calls me a nazi for being an American? WOW!, Gotta love the double-standards here!"-
here the support is 25%, in czech republic 12%, germany 15%,france 13% ect.ect. I see that the US doesn't see that thare arwe MILLIONs of people arrround the world (INCLUDING THE US) protesting in 10 and 100 thousands(if not millions) agains this supid pointless war?!
NO the US are law only to themselves. Qiute interesting that adolf bush doesn't see this.
-Me:"Of course we are "law ot ourselves"...(I think understand that???) Someone has to have the balls to uphold international laws...and oh yeah, I cant think of a single other nation going to the UN for aprovall to defend itself, much less of any getting a 15-0 vote on a Security Council issue that clearly states "seious consequences"."-
look go there start a war but when it starts to last over 3 moths and you have more and more body-bags comming home each day and protests breaking out and ur popularity dropping under 30% then you will understand this.
-Me:"Wow...way off the mark on this one. I need say no more."-
where is this headed to? who is next after iraq? South Korea, Iran? France, Germany? the americans don't care.
Well its a country where you can wrap ur house in a nazi flag but when u wrtie an article in the NEw york times agains the goverment and the war u get fired for "lack of space" and "needing to save money"...
-Me:"Since when did South Korea, France and Germany become enemies of the US? And you need to read the New York Times man.....read it and you will know what I mean."-
So, anyways, now that all these garbage statements have proven false as of lately, time for you folks to hit the drawing board and start inventing new slander and hyperbole.
____________
|
|
grunancross
Famous Hero
King of the Underdark
|
|
posted April 18, 2003 12:45 PM |
|
|
I guess anyone that disagres whit the U.S. or bush is a "Evil Dooer"! Every "Normal" Contry has to do was best fer them...and who say we even know all ther is to know...In the end Sadam is on the Verge of pushing dasyies and least the worms will have a use for him!!!!
____________
|
|
Damacon_Ace
Famous Hero
Also known as Nobris Agni
|
|
posted April 19, 2003 05:53 AM |
|
|
Quote:
I guess anyone that disagres whit the U.S. or bush is a "Evil Dooer"! Every "Normal" Contry has to do was best fer them...and who say we even know all ther is to know...In the end Sadam is on the Verge of pushing dasyies and least the worms will have a use for him!!!!
In one sense that is true, but in another sense it is not. While Bush likes to impose American law on other countries, ones like the UK and Australia who helped Bush in the war are no considered 'Evil Do-er's' in Bush's eyes.
____________
No one knows my true nature here...
|
|
dArGOn
Famous Hero
|
|
posted April 19, 2003 07:10 AM |
|
|
Quote
“Well I must say dArGOn, it's about time you got out here and gloated! What took you so long?
I have been trying not to gloat…though a few of us on this thread deserve to. It is so completely obvious how many posters here have been proven incorrect, yet there deep depth of denial gives great pause. I came back here after a week or so hoping to see some growth…some maturity….but alas it all remains the same. The appeasers, the cynics, the hand wringers, the chicken littles, could of stood up like men and said “you know what… I was wrong, I miscalculated, I misjudged”. But apparently no one at this time has the ego strength to take such a virtuous course.
Let me set the example. I was wrong in my calculation that chemical weapons would be used. There are at least 8 reasons why this could of not occurred ranging from there were/are no chemical weapons to command and control was so effectively decapitated that they were unable to organize the chemical warfare.
Quote
“It hardly takes the genius of say Lee or Napoleon to thrash silly an army with equipment almost twice as old as their users........ Brave troops? Yup, brilliant commanders? Nope.”
Hmm I seem to remember you remarking a few weeks ago that all the predictions were wrong about this being a quick war and saying that there was massive surrenders and fleeing from battle. Alas we now know they were massive, yet now you seem to switch sides and say that the enemy was not strong to begin with….so which is it?
I am amazed at how misinformed you are given your background. I can only assume that your lack of connection to media outlets as you described a few weeks ago would lead to such an incorrect conclusion. I have on a daily basis watched in-depth analysis from a vast array of military experts who have demonstrated clearly that the tactics employed were amazing.
Lets start at the beginning. First a military role of liberation is hundred fold more difficult then a military role of conquering/occupying. The previous is not only risky but makes any military action much more exhaustive and complex. The later is much more effective as you can blow everything up that you want without a care. The coalition was only able to advance initially on a very small southern front….really quite poor conditions to have such a limited front. The tactics of Saddam were barabarian from the suicide bombers, to using human shields, to faking surrenders…all of these made combat difficulty level rise a great deal.
IN short order the Coalition secured more then 95% of Iraq’s economy…truly heroic and unheard of given Saddam’s past scorch earth practices. Dam’s and bridges were quickly safeguarded. The human intelligence on the ground combined with the technological intelligence was truly breath taking. The behind the scenes work and general spying were unprecedented. The coalition skipped right by many battles and surged towards the heart of the country in true “The Art of War” colors….towns were ignored or surrounded to make the taking of Baghdad quick. POW rescue attempts went on without a hitch.
The tactics employed were creative, flexible, novel, and shocking. Modern warfare took blitzkrieg to a whole new level. This was particularly bold because modern warfare in this type of situation would of dictated massive bombings for 2 months and then ground troops (Kosovo, Gulf war, etc)…What we saw in Iraq was a brilliant execution of both ground and air at the same time. With the combined shock and awe and the lightening speed ground attack this was a great Rumsfield theory and tactic…to which he caught major flack in the first weeks and preceding of the war….only to be proven that his strat was amazing. The psyche ops, combined with shock/awe, and rapidity of ground forces very well accounted for more then 2/3 of Iraqi army surrendering, capitulating, and deserting….again remarkable.
Follow that up with immidate humanitarian aid, low civilian casualties, and low colaition casualties and you have a stratagy that will be studied for years to come so others can emulate it.
Quote
“Only an idiot would have claimed they could stop American forces outside or before bagdhad....”
Well I guess you would be saying that most of the appeaser crowd are idiots as many of them predicted that the USA didn’t have enough forces, didn’t plan well enough, were surprised, didn’t think ahead, would take months/years, etc, etc
Quote
“Let us hope a better job is done in Iraq than Kossovo or Afghanistan post war.”
Hmmm Afghanistan is doing very well particularly compared to prewar. Kosovo is also doing very well in comparison though the UN sure hasn’t got them enough electricity and everyone really botched the ethnic payback when who we were supposedly defending became the aggressors and started murdering who we were warring against to begin with.
Quote
“I was more interested in learning how people with opposite views on this justified their point of view.”
Admirable goal Wub. I don’t know about where you live, but here an average individual is bombarded with the liberal mindset. The liberals control our education/schools, news media, books, magazines, and movies. A conservative learns very quickly what the “other” viewpoint is and how to see the flaws. It is truly amazing how the liberal/conservative population is so balanced in America given the onslaught of one sided messages…you would think those powerful education/media influences would make the liberal demographics outnumber conservatives in quick order.
Quote
“So if you think your posts here are worthless because you can’t convince the other(s) anyway, remember that there are also people such as me who may not post much but like to see both points of view defended.”
It gets frustrating at times. So much plain evidence that isn’t accepted. I vary from thinking there are healthy and wise skeptics such as yourself to thinking that the world is full of idiots who can’t tie their shoes without a government official assisting them.
Quote
“the European media may be more objective than the American”
I have seen the reports….so I doubt that. I think of all nations that have “equal” coverage UK probably has the most balance…but Europe’s general coverage is warped according to what I have seen. US media focuses mostly on US advances and victories as well as terrorist attacks by Saddam. Most European media seems to focus on civilian casualties and second guessing coalition forces. Most Middle East media is just a joke….they are but puppets of Baghdad Bob and anti-americanism…pretty comical.
Quote
“I was thinking some of the same things about comments of how "brilliant" our military strategists are...I concur that this bug-squashing did not take a great deal of genius”
Hmmm that wasn’t what the European, Middle East, and USA liberal pundits were saying in the first week and preceding of the war…huge casualties predicted….months/years war would last, etc.. Funny how when the war is a huge success so many of the cynics (not you PM) suddenly switch tactics and claim that Iraq was a rag tag army.
Quote
“to see how political all these free presses are, no matter what country they are from. In they end they all seem to tow there countries party line.”
Good point…but something profound to consider….towing the country line IS FREE SPEECH. Free speech means to say whatever you like without the government dictating what is said. I think many times myself and others get free speech confused with objective media. Free speech is guaranteed in democracies….objective media is up to the individual media outlet.
Quote
“What are you talking about? Saddam and Bush go together like garlic and peanut butter. They are not even remotely the same...”
Extraordinary analogy. Comparing Bush to Saddam means one of two things…you are certifiable and need a secured room with soft colors on the wall…or you are completely uneducated past compare. Heck I sincerely dislike Chirac, Schroeder, etc…but I have enough intelligence to not equate them with Hitler, Stalin, whoever.
Quote
“When Hitler invaded the European countries…..He did it for "world peace" as well.”
What you been smoking bud? What kind of trash history is taught in your school….did Baghdad Bob write it? I would think so. Yes Hitler’s goal was world peace…roflol….you are hilarious man.
Quote
“I'd like a signed picture of the Info Minister too! That guy is a comedy legend!”
The guy is great….he provided endless entertainment. We all miss him
Heard something hilarious on David Letterman….”you know the USA is doing something right when France is against us”
Quote
“After all, they had plenty time to prepare for the war, not to mention manufacturing a few war heads, adding the Iraqi labels”
Speak it Baghdad Bob…speak it loudly.
Quote
“And about the tanks. Common. They JUST MARCHED ON BAGHDAD. OF COURSE there were tanks sitting around. And that's exactly what I watched them do, for hours, was just sit around.”
That makes to much sense…remember you are talking to Gothmog (AKA Baghdad Bob). In fact I think we have stumbled upon something very important…everyone is wondering where our fearless, pathetic Information Minister is…and now we all know he is in HC. Glad to see Baghdad Bob survived I vote we keep Gothmog around for comic relief. Gothmog could you please start quoting Baghdad Bob so we won’t feel so much sadness upon his departure. Just quote memorable lines such as "God will roast their stomachs in hell at the hands of Iraqis." Or when the colaition took Baghdad airport….."There are no American infidels in Baghdad. Never!"“
Quote
“SO THAT WAS ALL ORCHESTRATED??? Common.”
Well stated post Peacemaker…unfortunately too many people are blinded by hate and prejudice to see their own nose.
Quote
“A few days of Iraqi's looting their own country (mostly government buildings full of stuff Saddam and his regime spent the people's money on for themselves)
-OR-
decades of genocide, constant warring, unbridalled cruelty to dissadents of the regime and no freedom?”
Well put!
Quote
“With liberty and freedom come responsibility, a responsibility to act in accordance to law and civility, something the people of Iraq have not yet tasted....give those poor folks at least a few days before we accuse them of failing...they are intelligent, well-educated people, who just need a little help getting on their feet. Let's help them instead of bash them (and the coalition troops). “
Eloquent and to the point…excellent post TonyJT2471. I am so pleased that someone else explains the clear facts so that I don’t have to exhaust myself
Quote
“After all Rome wasn't built in a day, and neither will the new democratic Iraq.”
Precisely….I am amazed at how much criticism there has been about the disorder in Iraq….of course there is disorder…there is always disorder during/after a war…particularly when people have been so repressed by a dictator for over two decades.
Quote
“The allies have the ability to stop this chaos”
To make this statement this soon in the liberation…shameful….completly ignorant of the history of war in relation to this. Granted we would all like to see a perfect war where there is no disorder/chaos after military intervention…but time to face reality of life.
Quote
“C'mon, 3 days now at most of this after whats been going on for decades, give us a break. You know just as well as anyone that order will be restored and you can't try and pretend that the coalition forces are the stormtroopers that there to police a new facist Iraq. 3 days!!!!”
I don’t think appeasers in denial will get the basic facts of life…but nonetheless well stated.
Quote
“you'll still owe france for winning the revolution for you.”
Huh…how about a reality check on that statement. Not only is that factly incorrect, but we paid the French for their help…so I guess we wouldn’t be owing them anything.
Quote
“I'm afraid Gootch and bort are right; we Americans are really comparatively a bunch of softies. Sometimes I wonder if we would be as eager to seek war as a solution if we'd had some of the same experiences as others.”
What??? How dare minimize all the American deaths and suffering! America has suffered plenty throughout history thank you very much.
|
|
dArGOn
Famous Hero
|
|
posted April 19, 2003 07:31 AM |
|
|
Quote
“Thousands of Iraqi's are being slaughtered by the second! The U.S. forces have been shooting at random civilians for target practice as the war goes on. No one can stop them! They are bloodthirsty animals bent on genocide of Iraqi people. They are already posting stolen goods from the many houses they have raided all over the country of Iraq to be sold on E-Bay. Reports indicate a new pipeline has been laid from Baghdad directly to New York to supply the oil that American forces invaded Iraq for to fuel baby-torturing death camps. In other news, it appears as though America has hands down approved a bill that supplies Isreal with 1,000 nuclear weapons that are to be launched at every Arab city within 28 days. Coalition forces are ordered to shoot anyone who looks at them "funny" or yells "kinda loud" at them or around them.”
LOL…LOL…LOL….that was awesome
Quote
“definately watching too much FOX.”
Ah Fox news…the only breath of fresh air in American media in over 50 years….finally fair and balanced…no more brainwashing and spinning.
|
|
Wolfman
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Insomniac
|
|
posted April 19, 2003 07:31 AM |
|
|
Quote:
Quote
“What are you talking about? Saddam and Bush go together like garlic and peanut butter. They are not even remotely the same...”
Extraordinary analogy. Comparing Bush to Saddam means one of two things…you are certifiable and need a secured room with soft colors on the wall…or you are completely uneducated past compare. Heck I sincerely dislike Chirac, Schroeder, etc…but I have enough intelligence to not equate them with Hitler, Stalin, whoever.
I assume you did not understand what I said, someone else compared Bush to Saddam. And since I don't know anyone who thinks garlic abd peanut butter are good togetherI said that.
Chirac=Chiraq=iraq "is there a little simalarity there I think there is"(my buddy Uncle Buck said this)
Quote:
Quote
“I'd like a signed picture of the Info Minister too! That guy is a comedy legend!”
The guy is great….he provided endless entertainment. We all miss him
Yes, we do I call for a moment of scilence to remember him...ok back to the topic.
Quote:
Heard something hilarious on David Letterman….”you know the USA is doing something right when France is against us”
I saw that too, #4 on the top ten. But did you see Saddam on Letterman? Or Saddam #2?
Quote:
Quote
“After all Rome wasn't built in a day, and neither will the new democratic Iraq.”
Precisely….I am amazed at how much criticism there has been about the disorder in Iraq….of course there is disorder…there is always disorder during/after a war…particularly when people have been so repressed by a dictator for over two decades.
Are you really surprised? What did you expect then? Liberal fools in the US, such as Jeneane Awfulo and Susan Saranwrap
Quote:
Quote
“you'll still owe france for winning the revolution for you.”
Huh…how about a reality check on that statement. Not only is that factly incorrect, but we paid the French for their help…so I guess we wouldn’t be owing them anything.
WWI anyone?
Quote:
Quote
“I'm afraid Gootch and bort are right; we Americans are really comparatively a bunch of softies. Sometimes I wonder if we would be as eager to seek war as a solution if we'd had some of the same experiences as others.”
What??? How dare minimize all the American deaths and suffering! America has suffered plenty throughout history thank you very much.
Well put dArGOn! Havent most countries?
____________
|
|
dArGOn
Famous Hero
|
|
posted April 19, 2003 07:35 AM |
|
|
Quote
"I assume you did not understand what I said, someone else compared Bush to Saddam. And since I don't know anyone who thinks garlic abd peanut butter are good togetherI said that. "
I understood your point and was agreeing with the analogy...in fact I found it hilarious and to the point. I then went on to critique those who think Bush and Saddam are equal....but I can see how I wrote it that you might think I was critiquing you....I skipped to quickly from complimenting you to critiquing others
|
|
Wolfman
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Insomniac
|
|
posted April 19, 2003 07:36 AM |
|
|
Quote:
Ah Fox news…the only breath of fresh air in American media in over 50 years….finally fair and balanced…no more brainwashing and spinning.
I don't watch just one news, for a few reasons, FOX has been accused of putting special effects in the tapes of Baghdad being bombed and CNN witholds info, so I watch all the stations:FOX CNN MSNBC ABC CBS...
____________
|
|
Wolfman
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Insomniac
|
|
posted April 19, 2003 07:39 AM |
|
|
Quote:
Quote
"I assume you did not understand what I said, someone else compared Bush to Saddam. And since I don't know anyone who thinks garlic abd peanut butter are good togetherI said that. "
I understood your point and was agreeing with the analogy...in fact I found it hilarious and to the point. I then went on to critique those who think Bush and Saddam are equal....but I can see how I wrote it that you might think I was critiquing you....I skipped to quickly from complimenting you to critiquing others
oh ok that's better, I feel most complimented.
____________
|
|
TonyJT2471
Bad-mannered
Adventuring Hero
|
|
posted April 19, 2003 07:57 AM |
|
|
Oh my Lord!
I almost pissed myself and passed out upon reading the last several posts....there are people who post on this board that are actually intelligent! (Of course it helps you guys agree with me and reference my quotes )
Anyways, I apreciate the other viewpoints, it would just help if they were analytical instead of what I usually get from liberals (trust me, I live in Eugene,Oregon, hippie-socialist capital of the world!) But not ALL liberals.
Free speech rocks!
____________
|
|
TonyJT2471
Bad-mannered
Adventuring Hero
|
|
posted April 19, 2003 08:07 AM |
|
|
News stations
Yeah, I watch them all, too (MSNBC, CNN, FOX, ABC, CBS, etc).....BUT......
I have to admit Fox News is by far the most balanced and accurate.
Here in America, we have access to PBS...on this station (as much as I dislike state-run media, I only watch the foriegn news) we get to watch prime-time Al-Jazeera and Abhu-Dhabi TV news networks. WHAT A JOKE!
No wonder these people hate America and Isreal. You should have seen how excited people in Palestine were about the war and how they believed Saddam woudl kill the Americans and believed that this was a parrallel to their peoples crisis with Isreal.
This is what heppens when state run media operates and freedom of the press is SUPRESSED.
Maybe in our future efforts all we need to do is take out those state media TV stations and beam in news from the US and the rest of the world.
____________
|
|
TonyJT2471
Bad-mannered
Adventuring Hero
|
|
posted April 19, 2003 08:10 AM |
|
|
I almost forgot about the BBS!
I cant watch it here...but their website is by far the most informative of any I have ever visited. The amount of untainted factual information is beyond comprehension after veiwing other news sites.
____________
|
|
privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
|
|
posted April 19, 2003 12:54 PM |
|
|
Quote:
have on a daily basis watched in-depth analysis from a vast array of military experts who have demonstrated clearly that the tactics employed were amazing
I disagree entirely. The quality of troops and their commanders can only be tested by facing a challenge equal to them, ie commanders of like quality, troops with equal equipment etc. Hannibal was a good commander, but his greatest victories were against incompetent Roman politicians. When he faced a decent Roman general and legions used to his tactics at Zama he himself got thrashed. Now had we beaten an army armed with the majority of it's tanks more recent than 1955 or with generals who were actually interested in fighting rather than being paid off, then THAT would be an millitary achievement.
Quote:
IN short order the Coalition secured more then 95% of Iraq’s economy
I remember, you saved their Oil and their bridges and allowed 5000 year old irreplacable art and history to be looted and smashed.
Quote:
The tactics employed were creative, flexible, novel, and shocking
How? The armoured tactics were used on the ground in the last war. The Racing for key objectives whilst leaving small units in other areas to gaurd against counter attacks has been a basic tactic for a long time, Napoleon for one tended to use it a lot, and the british used it heavily in NW europe during WWII.
Quote:
This was particularly bold because modern warfare in this type of situation would of dictated massive bombings for 2 months and then ground troops (Kosovo, Gulf war, etc)
Rather stupid to compare either of them. What has been shown is that the Iraqui army had extremely few tanks left to fight the various battles. Large scale tank attacks usually turned out to be less than 20 Iraqui tanks, and those they did have were ancient. The main threat in this war, unlike others came from the infantry based forces of Hussain's regime, not something easy to destroy with bombing so that would be entirely pointless.
Quote:
With the combined shock and awe and the lightening speed ground attack this was a great Rumsfield theory and tactic
Oh please, combined air/ground attacks are nothing new. The only sole reason why they have not usually been as quick in the past is that usually both sides are evenly balanced....
Quote:
only to be proven that his strat was amazing
Don't follow you there. Necessary certainly given that nothing else would work. Amazing? Hardly, not either new or particularly brilliant either.
Quote:
Hmmm Afghanistan is doing very well particularly compared to prewar
Oh really? Putting such a cut-throat bunch of ex terrorists in power is a good idea is it?
Quote:
Kosovo is also doing very well in comparison though the UN sure hasn’t got them enough electricity and everyone really botched the ethnic payback when who we were supposedly defending became the aggressors and started murdering who we were warring against to begin with.
All we achieved in kossovo was to
A) Help bring down milosevic by humiliating him
B) Swap one bunch of ethnic murdering and violence for another
C) Install some small amount of order where our troops can, but this hardly covers anywhere of serious size. The rest of the country is rife with ethnic hatred.
Hardly sucess of the century.
Quote:
Hmmm that wasn’t what the European, Middle East, and USA liberal pundits were saying in the first week and preceding of the war…huge casualties predicted….months/years war would last, etc.. Funny how when the war is a huge success so many of the cynics (not you PM) suddenly switch tactics and claim that Iraq was a rag tag army.
You're clearly watching more than me seeing as how I didn't notice these pundits. But For myself, all I ever said was IF the RG put up a stand in bagdhad and slugged it out they could inflict heavy casualties. They didn't.
Quote:
What you been smoking bud? What kind of trash history is taught in your school….did Baghdad Bob write it? I would think so. Yes Hitler’s goal was world peace…roflol….you are hilarious man.
If I may interrupt your rant, you seem to have caught missing the point disease I believe he was saying Hitler CLAIMED in his speeches and press to be after world peace or a world crusade against communism.
Quote:
To make this statement this soon in the liberation…shameful….completly ignorant of the history of war in relation to this. Granted we would all like to see a perfect war where there is no disorder/chaos after military intervention…but time to face reality of life.
Really? I thought we had no trouble wiping the floor with the enemy's army? Fact is the troops on the ground after the fall of bagdhad took some time to install some sort of attempts at order, time in which disasters happened to places like the museum. We've got the wrong troops there to install order for a start (in the british case) and we're not showing any signs of sending them either. Now THAT is shameful.
Quote:
Huh…how about a reality check on that statement. Not only is that factly incorrect, but we paid the French for their help…so I guess we wouldn’t be owing them anything.
And you gave us those destroyers, planes and tanks etc free of charge naturally *rolls eyes*. And we still ended the war financially bankrupt despite the other european powers escaping such problems.
And please, I know my facts of the revolution, you would have lost or been severely delayed in winning, or got much less land without french naval intervention and the Dutch/Spanish declaring war on us in Europe. Cornwallis surrended at yorktwon because
A) The army facing him was twice his size..... 1/2 of it was FRENCH
B) His supply ships had been either sunk or scattered by the FRENCH navy
C) His reinforcements had been forced to march to his aid rather than sail due to the American/FRENCH fleet sitting outside the town, delaying them by long enough to make him believe they were not coming at all.
I could go on, but I reccomend you read a book entitled "what if" by Pan Books. It contains a chapter on the revolution and details ways in which small changes could have reveresed the outcome of the war. Many of those are specifically french natured. I could I guess quote it, but I'm busy Try getting the facts before you declare someone's argument factually wrong.
Quote:
What??? How dare minimize all the American deaths and suffering! America has suffered plenty throughout history thank you very much.
I would believe PM point had something similar to do with the fact that with the exception of the revolution, Civil war and 1812, when you have fought wars it's always been on someone else's soil, far from home and far from the minds of those at home. It's similar to the british prior to WWI as we had never fought in or over Britian for many centuries and what wars we did fight were continental ones so the people at home were less affected by them in a direct way.
There's a whole world of difference between fighting on the other side of the globe, removed from the majority of your people (bar relatives dying etc) and actually having the war going past your front doorstep. The horrors of war and seeing immediate death in France would have been something almost everyone would have seen. In america it would be restricted to armed forces personnel, nurses etc, but not the majority of the people.
So whilst america's family's have faced much trauma like any nations do when fighting a war, America itself as a land area has not had the traumatic experience of say France in having seen war come right to their doorstep, or the British when bombs were raining down during the blitz, or the Germans were they were bombed day and night, or the Russians were their very soil was burnt and their very cities flattened to slow the enemy.
Not that I'm bashing your country here, but I'm just saying that america suffered, but other countries suffered more for their liberty.
Quote:
Ah Fox news…the only breath of fresh air in American media in over 50 years….finally fair and balanced…no more brainwashing and spinning.
I do hope that's sarcasm I hear in your voice.
____________
We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
|
|
bort
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Discarded foreskin of morality
|
|
posted April 19, 2003 02:32 PM |
|
|
Quote:
I disagree entirely. The quality of troops and their commanders can only be tested by facing a challenge equal to them, ie commanders of like quality, troops with equal equipment etc.
I'd argue that the true test of a commander is making damn sure his troops never face a challenge equal to them. Strategy is simple really -- make sure that at any point in the conflict, your troops have a much better chance of putting holes in the other guys than they have in putting holes in your troops. If your commander ever puts you in a situation where your quality really needs to be tested, he's not a very good commander.
|
|
Wolfman
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Insomniac
|
|
posted April 19, 2003 03:00 PM |
|
|
Ain't it the truth!
____________
|
| |
|
|
This Popular Thread is pages long: 
