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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: Fortress Strategy.
Thread: Fortress Strategy. This thread is 6 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 · «PREV / NEXT»
JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted August 11, 2011 09:30 AM

When did you last have Air with a Beastmaster?

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted August 11, 2011 09:33 AM

He has exactly the same chance to get it as overlords and rangers, nothing different.
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted August 11, 2011 09:44 AM

Yes.
For those Air Magic has the lowest chances possible that skills can have to appear. You are doing yourself no favour to waste a skill slot with Air Magic, even if it will pesent itself to pick, as long as you have access only to a level 3 guild, and the Air Magic spells won't do you any good.
You have to try to get Water and Earth.
Sure, Mass Haste isn't all bad , but you have to get spell and skill, and what you desperately need most is a can opener for town sieges - Air Magic won't hand it to you.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted August 11, 2011 09:52 AM
Edited by Salamandre at 10:03, 11 Aug 2011.

Yes, it is universally known that without chain lightning fortress can't win. Come on...
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted August 11, 2011 10:20 AM

Huh? Chain Lightning? What are you even talking about?
The point is that Air Magic is not only pretty rare, useful spells (both in terms of Fortress's Mage Guild and army set-up) don't favor even trying to get it.

If you see that differently you are invited to name your reasons. If you can't do that I don't see a discussion here.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted August 11, 2011 10:27 AM

Quote:
as long as you have access only to a level 3 guild, and the Air Magic spells won't do you any good.



Quote:
Huh? Chain Lightning? What are you even talking about?



That's what I am talking about but of course it was sarcasm.

I can see only one reason to refuse air, only if it is offered same time as earth (very unlikely), but I would still hesitate. In any other conjuncture I take it, no matter the other skill. Air and tactics are a must for fortress. If you know the probabilities on when the magic skills are offered, you have greater chance to get air, sooner or later.

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angelito
angelito


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
posted August 11, 2011 10:36 AM

JJ...come on...have you ever played any competitive games with or against fortress?

If so, you would know how important mass haste for fortress is.

Mass haste is the main reason for any town to get air magic. Or do you think CragHack is trying to get it because of mass precision?
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B0rsuk
B0rsuk


Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
posted August 11, 2011 11:18 AM

Not that even advanced precision would be bad on cyclops kings, against Fortress.
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted August 11, 2011 11:44 AM

Crag Hack is a Barbarian, and Stronghold is a different town. Mass Haste for Stronghold is imperative.
Also, Stronghold Guild has better chances to get Haste than Fortress Guild.

For Fortress Mass Haste is a Chimaera when you start a game.
You can't build your strategies on improbable things, and when you play a Beastmaster, Mass Haste is something that you can't rely on to get. You'll build the level 1 mage guild very early, so you will see immediately whether you have Haste or not. If no Haste is there, wasting a skill slot and 3 level-ups for a mass spell that you need to acquire somewhere, seems foolish anyway.
If the Guild DOES have Haste, you still must be offered Air Magic, but even if you get it offered, depending on the rest of spells offered, it's still a wasted pick: with Earth Magic being the most common of the lot, chances are your opponent has Mass Slow.
Usually Water and Earth will do you more good.
If you play a Beastmaster, your strength is in Defense, and the strength of your creatures is Defense as well. Damage, however, isn't. Also you will have not that much mana, so you have to use your magic first and foremost to avoid being hampered. You can stand a hit or two, but it's imperative, that you can use your level 5 and level 7 - you can't allow them being Blinded or slowed.

On a bigger map, when you have a chance to visit more guilds and spell shrines and Ddoor is in, and you have all important skills and one slot left open - should the chance be there to get it, fine.

Otherwise - if you really think you need Air Magic to win with Fortress you shouldn't play it, because you will lose a lot of games.

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heroes_player
heroes_player


Known Hero
posted August 11, 2011 11:49 AM

You guys should not forget about mass prayer, it will replace mass haste as well..

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted August 11, 2011 11:51 AM
Edited by Salamandre at 11:52, 11 Aug 2011.

There are several heroes coming with haste, others with scholar. There are shrines. There are towns around. There are pandora boxes, scrolls. There are dragon utopias and tomes. There are witch huts, universities, conflux towns.

The probability a beastmaster can't get haste and air on any decent map is really very low.
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted August 11, 2011 12:03 PM

If I read something like "on any decent map" I stop discussing.

What you are saying is: "I play only maps where everyone can get everything, because all other maps suck."

Fine. Play those maps. Get Air Magic. Brilliant strategy. Well done. End of story.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted August 11, 2011 12:11 PM
Edited by Salamandre at 12:14, 11 Aug 2011.

By decent map I mean a map where all those objects were not banned, just to make you feel right. Do you agree those are common objects on any random or regular map? If so, what are we arguing about?
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted August 11, 2011 01:19 PM

Quote:

The probability a beastmaster can't get haste and air on any decent map is really very low.


That's what you want to show with the fact that there MAY be a couple of things available that MAY allow you to get
a) Haste and
b) Expert Air Magic

with really high probability, and that's just not true. If a map allows you to say, "Hey, I KNOW that this map will hand me Expert Air Magic and Haste, and at a point when it really counts, so I can base my overall strategy on having Mass Haste readily available when necessary", something is definitely wrong with the map or with your take on it.

Knowing about probabilities and finding the best way to go, is part of good play. If the maps are set up that way that they obscure probabilities and make everything equally likely, it becomes a different game - in that case you must consider the possibility of Barbarians aquiring the Clone spell, which may well be devastating - or Mass Berserking you in the wrong moment.

In that case most considerations about strategy and Tactics are moot anyway: "Your hero can't get Water Magic? Your Mage Guild has only 3 levels? No problem. Chances are there is a Conflux and a Grail somewhere on the map, so you can get every magic you want, and since chances are that you will find lots of power and knowledge boosters and artifacts, your Barbarian will be a formidable caster on any decent map."

FACT is, however, that on any map, that I would call decent, your average Beastmaster is much more likely to get Earth and Water than Air, and fact is also, that the chances to get useful spells out of Earth and Water are WAY better than those to get useful Air spells.
Consequently, I'll base my strategies on the PROBABLE, and not on wishful thinking.

There ARE Heroes that come with Haste, there ARE Scholar heroes as well which I MAY be able to hire or not, there ARE Witch Huts that MAY teach Air Magic or not - BUT I CAN'T PLAY FOR IT, anymore than I can play for a month of Gorgons.

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PinkFlamingo
PinkFlamingo


Adventuring Hero
posted August 11, 2011 06:59 PM

You could play aggressively with Bron.  Fast expand (get Wyverns asap).  Hire several heroes to completely scout available areas and pick up any free stuff.

Water and Earth magic.  Taking over nearby neutral towns should be priority.  Try to get Dragon Flies early on so your scouts have more movement and higher chance of retreat.  


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pdesbois
pdesbois


Adventuring Hero
posted August 11, 2011 07:54 PM

"Water and Earth".... Try to offer those to Leonidas.

Next thing you'll hear is "THIS-IS-SPARTAAA!"

Teleporting Hydras and Gorgons...

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Pewu
Pewu


Hired Hero
posted August 12, 2011 02:41 PM

I just want to say something.
Fortress is my favourite town to play.

The units are nice, the race of Lizards is just awesome and very original.

About strategy:

Gnolls are quite strong being a 1st level creature - when they are in a big group, they can just broke someone's legs

Lizardmen are good in the expansion - They have good skills, and they are very good for a 2nd level.

Dragonflies are very fast and this is a good skill, they also can weak a unit of your enemy.

Basilisks can turn into stone, and they are quite strong.

GORGONS. They are my favourite units in the whole game! They can destroy a unit with a huge HP, cause they have a dead sight.

Vyverns are not that bad, but they also aren't that good. I always upgrade them, cos they can poison, it's a very good ability.

Hydras are slow, but in combat they are great, they can attack 3 units at the same time - great for me.

At first, I click 'wait' when the dragonflies can move. After that they can weak a unit and then just come back to the place, from where the dragonfly started. After that, I can shoot the weak enemies with strong lizardmen. If I have a Vyvern, I just poison another units, and then Gnolls attack the weaker enemies, at the end I attack with Gorgons the stronger enemies, and at the end, I just kill weaked, poisoned and turned-into-stone enemies with my Hydras.


Sorry for my english.
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precedens
precedens

Tavern Dweller
posted August 12, 2011 03:46 PM

most of tactics including serpent flies requires to split them in 2-3 stacks (if you have space, gnolls usually are done in lategame) and rush for block ranged units/apply weakness on stronger units.

also hydras attack all units around, not 3 units ahead (that cerberuses do). fortress is most underestimated by casual players, played by expert ones this castle can clear whole map with 1-3 hydras and stacks that follow upcoming weeks.

fortress so far is most powerful castle, but cons like 3lv mage guild and low speed units are making it most challenging to play (my opinion).

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angelito
angelito


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
posted August 12, 2011 05:19 PM
Edited by angelito at 17:21, 12 Aug 2011.

Quote:
Crag Hack is a Barbarian, and Stronghold is a different town. Mass Haste for Stronghold is imperative.
Also, Stronghold Guild has better chances to get Haste than Fortress Guild.

For Fortress Mass Haste is a Chimaera when you start a game.
You can't build your strategies on improbable things, and when you play a Beastmaster, Mass Haste is something that you can't rely on to get. You'll build the level 1 mage guild very early, so you will see immediately whether you have Haste or not. If no Haste is there, wasting a skill slot and 3 level-ups for a mass spell that you need to acquire somewhere, seems foolish anyway.
If the Guild DOES have Haste, you still must be offered Air Magic, but even if you get it offered, depending on the rest of spells offered, it's still a wasted pick: with Earth Magic being the most common of the lot, chances are your opponent has Mass Slow.
Usually Water and Earth will do you more good.
If you play a Beastmaster, your strength is in Defense, and the strength of your creatures is Defense as well. Damage, however, isn't. Also you will have not that much mana, so you have to use your magic first and foremost to avoid being hampered. You can stand a hit or two, but it's imperative, that you can use your level 5 and level 7 - you can't allow them being Blinded or slowed.

On a bigger map, when you have a chance to visit more guilds and spell shrines and Ddoor is in, and you have all important skills and one slot left open - should the chance be there to get it, fine.

Otherwise - if you really think you need Air Magic to win with Fortress you shouldn't play it, because you will lose a lot of games.
I'm not sure what kind of games/maps you have played so far, but I have yet to find a map where a spell like haste isn't present. Be it home town, second/third town, magic shrine, tome etc..
If you really think, air magic on a beastmaster is a wasted skill, then I repeat my former line: I guess you have NEVER played competitive games with or against fortress.
I can tell you that I have played a LOT of games...and yes, MANY of them online.
And when you get mass slowed as fortress, and have nothing to counter that, your game is over. You will just get killed by range attacks. The main forces of fortress are the mighty Moos and the Hydras, depending on rules additional the wyverns. If the moos and the hydras won't get involed in hand to hand attacks, you're lost.
If you're slowed, your moos will get attacked by low level units to prepare your big tanks for the second NO RETAIL hit.

Against Tower, you will be completely screwed. 3 shooters, gargs for taking retail, queens for big hit....
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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted August 12, 2011 05:49 PM

Well, he says water is important, so cure is still available. But cure does not get you closer, and fortress needs to be close quite fast, from far away it is a puppet.
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