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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: Fortress Strategy.
Thread: Fortress Strategy. [ This thread is 6 pages long: 1 2 3 (4) 5 6 ]
maretti
maretti


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted August 12, 2011 01:39 PM

Chance to get haste in the fortress guild is 53%. Stronghold guild gives 31%. Mass haste is very good with fortress in generel, no doubt.
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted August 12, 2011 02:16 PM

Please. I've played this game online a couple of years.

The question isn't what you WANT to do, the question is what you CAN do. The game is no altar of wishes. You have to play with what you get.
The chances to get Cure or Dispel are way better than the chances to get Haste. The chances to get Water are better than the chances to get Air. The chances to get Earth are better yet.

Then there is Tactics - even though opponent will have it as well, if he could get it.

Also, with Earth Magic having highest probabilities for nearly everyone you can expect opponent to have Mass Slow, and that means that it will be difficult, to say the least to keep the advantage. Add to that that you have a lot of 2-hex creatures and you have a problem to reach opponent even with Mass Haste, once there are obstacles. You will need two turns anyway to reach opponent with your full force.

You have to avoid getting stuck, which means you need Cure/Dispel - and as a mass version. The opponent can shoot for half damage, once, even twice, but that's what you have exceptional defense and Armorer for.

Also, if there ARE more towns, Prayer is way better than Haste.

If opponent knows what he's doing, he'll keep his Level7 out of range of the MGs. Since most of the L7s can Fly or teleport and are faster than even hasted MGs, they have good chances to succeed, depending on obstacles and so on. It's no good to Mass Haste your troops, have the Gorgons fail to reach anything (speed 11) and then get Mass slowed, Blinded or even  Paralyzed, Berserked, and so on.
You must keep magic CONTROL with Fortress, and that means you need Cure/Dispel.

Furthermore, if those "towns" that are on your maps, are somewhat fortified and guarded you will take some losses - more losses than you would like, and Mass Haste or Air won't help you keeping them low.

Lastly, yes, when you already have a prospective magic skill, but not on Expert, depending on how far the game is I would not take another Basic Magic skill - having three magic skills on advanced will cost you dearly. Better to have one on expert.


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Salamandre
Salamandre


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted August 12, 2011 02:23 PM

Quote:

The chances to get Cure or Dispel are way better than the chances to get Haste.


Actually not. They same.


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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted August 12, 2011 02:30 PM

Quote:
Chance to get haste in the fortress guild is 53%. Stronghold guild gives 31%. Mass haste is very good with fortress in generel, no doubt.
Is that true?
Modhomm isn't working on Win7 64 bit, and I have currently only modded files I can't trust, so I can't control that. If your percentage was right, Fortress Haste probability (in the file) would have to be higher than 10, while Strongholds would have to be much lower. Is that true?

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted August 12, 2011 02:36 PM

Quote:
Quote:

The chances to get Cure or Dispel are way better than the chances to get Haste.


Actually not. They same.



No. With that table, the chances to get Cure OR Dispel are way better than the chance to get Haste.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted August 12, 2011 02:40 PM

Are you sure you read in the right column?
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted August 12, 2011 02:47 PM

The percentages for each spell in each town are in the, err, spelltraits, is it, I think. Since there are 5 slots (Tower 6) for level 1 spell, to get the chances you have to go (100-prob)>5 and so on. So if probabilty for a spell in a towmn is 10(& the chance to get it in that town is 45%.

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Fauch
Fauch


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted August 12, 2011 02:48 PM

yes, because he said cure OR dispel, which means either cure, or dispel, or both.

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Aleee
Aleee


Known Hero
posted August 12, 2011 02:49 PM

Well, technically it's true. Chance "to get Cure OR Dispel" is 0.2 for each slot in the guild (if we forget about the fact that these are nonindependent events), while chance to get Haste is 0.1 for each slot.
Even though it doesn't make much sense.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted August 12, 2011 06:03 PM
Edited by JollyJoker at 18:12, 12 Aug 2011.

I would really like to know where the table comes from, because the math is difficult.
Anyway, the problem isn't the spell, the problem is Air Magic, since it's one of the most unlikely skills a Beastmaster can get. The chances to get Air Magic EARLY, are even worse. You CAN of course pick skills to maximize your chances, but your chances to get Earth and/or Water offered are STILL way bigger than Air. Picking them would reduce your Air chances again, so in order to maximize your Air chances you would have to avoid Earth/Water/Wisdom and instead take highly probably Might skills.
If you really get Air offered you must get it twice more, however, and having highly probable might skills makes that unlikely.

So in my book you simply canot play for EXPERT AIR MAGIC with a Beastmaster. That means that you have to be able to win WITHOUT Mass Haste more often than not. (I don't think that I got offered Air Magic with a Beastmaster more often than 1 out of 5 times, and that's much).

Fortress isn't a damage doer, except when the Gorgons kill Level 7 units and the Hydras get to attack more than one target. With Mass Haste or without, you'll always face the ranged damage problem, but it is no general problem, since there are not many units that can really hurt you with ranged damage.

So the actual tactics are town specific. There isn't for example a lot you can do, if you play against Rampart, Tactics is cancelling itself out and you are mass Slowed. Elves will be guarded and there will be no easy way to get to them, Mass Haste or not.

Also, it doesn't matter how good something is. The question is how likely it is to get it.

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B0rsuk
B0rsuk


Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
posted August 12, 2011 07:36 PM
Edited by B0rsuk at 19:38, 12 Aug 2011.

I like probability, I understand it intuitively. If this table is correct:

Base chance of Haste - 0.531
Base chance of Cure - 0.531
Base chance of Dispel - 0.531

Then:

(1 - 0.531) = 0.469  chance of NOT getting Cure
(1 - 0.531) = 0.469  chance of NOT getting Dispel

Chance of (not getting Cure AND not getting Dispel):

0.469 * 0.469 ~ (approx) 0.22

Then chance of getting cure or getting dispel:
1 - 0.22 = 0.78 (approximately).

0.78 > 0.531

-----------

I agree it's  best to stick to Water. Teleport, Forgetfulness. You might find Prayer somewhere.
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angelito
angelito

Hero of Order
proud father of a princess
posted August 13, 2011 06:11 AM

The table is made by dimis iirc...maybe Ecoris did some work too. You can find the original thread here in the library.

And the numbers are fine.

And to say "it is more possible to get cure OR dispel than to get haste, therfore it is better to rely on water than on magic" is just....I can't find a word without insulting anyone...

The way you argue here JJ makes me wonder against whom you played this game online FOR YEARS. I have never seen you around on zone, gamespy or gameranger the last 6 years. Care to elaborate what your player's name was?
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted August 13, 2011 08:33 AM

Not for the first time I wonder whether you have a reading comprehension problem, angelito.

It is better to RELY on it because

1) Water Magic is more probable to turn up AND to get it to expert early enough - the worst thing possible is actually HAVING Haste, HAVING AIR, but being forced into battle with Advanced Air only.
Your chances to get Air and use it on any reasonable, that is normal map that you can finish in a halfway decent time and does not involve more than one starting town and a chain of Towns to conquer somewhere, are SLIM.
Would you deny that? Air Magic has probability 1 for Beasties.
That means, YOU MUST BE LUCKY TO GET IT. And not only must you be lucky to get it, you also must get it offered halfway EARLY - you need another two offerings after the first.
However, you cannot build any reliable strategy on acquiring the most unlikely skill that you can get - it's a strategy game, not the lottery.
Also, the more likely Expert Air Magic gets, the more levels your hero has, which SHOULD mean, that you play longer and your army gets bigger. The bigger your army, the less probably is a win/loss decision in round one or two, not with Fortress anyway.

2) In my experience you have quite reasonable chances to get BOTH Earth AND Water Magic, and not only hand these skills fine level 1 Mass spells - Slow, Shield, Stone Skin, Cure, Dispel, Bless - they also offer Earthquake and of course Teleport - in case it is necessary to take fortified and guarded towns that you cannot take with Flyers alone.

Also Teleport is Fortress' best (probable) spell to inconvenience the opponent, depending on the situation, and you need Water Magic for that.

3) MASS HASTE (and consequently Air Magic) WILL NOT WIN YOU THE BATTLE! Opponent will most likely have Mass Slow, no matter what he plays, if he's not very unlucky or, well, unfocussed or something, and you cannot hope to do more than close the distance with your troops. Chances are that your Beastmaster is lower on Mana than opponent, and worse than being shot at with 2 mediocre shooters for half damage, is standing at the enemy being mass-slowed in the wrong moment and then systematically slaughtered, with opponent picking targets.
You need spells that have a chance to last a couple of rounds, and Mass Haste is the least likely of them.
In fact, if opponent is a good player, it will be difficult to win, NO MATTER WHAT. I mean, you don't win the battle, just because you can cast mass Haste.

4) You need Tactics anyway, MAYBE reducing distance to the enemy (depending on the opposing town Tactics may not be that likely - someone mentioned Tower because of their 3 shooters.
ADIMITTEDLY, against Tower, going first, having a Tactics advantage starting with Mass Haste, will make your day - but Prayer will do that far better, and it's not me who started with other towns and hundreds of ways to get spells.
The only Haste Advantage here is that you wouldn't need Wisdom, which would be an advantage in shorter games - but in shorter games, getting Expert Air Magic would also be a ton of Luck.

5) THAT SAID, you will have reliable chances to get EITHER Cure OR Dispel in your own Mage Guild (and obviously anywhere else as well). With Air Magic being unlikely, this allows you to guard against BEING CRIPPLED - and being crippled in ANY way, not only in speed. This in turn will allow you to reach opponent in turn 2 and with all important units, and that SHOULD be enough, if the rest of your game has been good enough compared to opponent.
Depending on opponent, you can't win everytime anyway - that is to say, you'll lose sometimes even with your best play, since opponent made no mistake and the map simply may suited his town better, having some sort of advantage you can't counter

Fortress won't win in turn 1, but it also won't lose in turn 1. A lot depends on whether you get Death Stare working, and how many targets your Hydras will hit. Basilik's Petrification may help (or not), Dragonflies may be able to Dispel something important - or not. Wyvern may poison a vulnerable target - or not. OPPONENT KNOWS THAT AS WELL. But no matter all that - Fortress must be able to stand a hit or two AND Fortress must not sacrifice their fast fliers prematurely.

Now, with all that said, IF you get Air Magic offered - which is unlikely, but IF, and IF you have Haste in your spellbook, and IF for all you know there is enough time for enough level-ups to get it on expert, and IF you have enough free slots to get another Magic skill, yeah, WHY NOT? It might be a nasty surprise.

But if you run desperately around the map in search of the Haste spell your starting town did not offer this time and of the Witch Hut that will offer you Air Magic, you are not playing Heroes 3, but treasure hunt.

P.S.: It doesn't look like you ever played AGAINST Fortress led by Tazar that cast Mass Shield on him, with you not having Expert Water Magic to dispel.
Make the Math yourself. Let's say he's level 16, which will give him an additional 12% to his 15% coming from expert Armourer: 27% damage reduction. To that we add 30% damage reduction for Mass Shield.

57% damage reduction. Now consider the high defense value that  will reduce all damage accordingly against your good units. Furthermore ranged damage will be halved due to range, as long as you are out of ranged.
Where does that leave ranged damage?

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted August 13, 2011 08:45 AM

I think the issue is pretty simple, is not like going for a skill or another, you just pick it if offered. Myself, I would probably skip if the first magic skill offered is water, because I want air. If it keeps offering me water, I would take it because no better choice.

The problem with dispel and cure is that they are restorative spells, they only set back to what you had while mass haste, if casted at right moment, gives a big advantage.

Of course, the battle can give the opportunity to choose from millions of possible moves or casts, therefore it is impossible to say "water can make you win, or air will never make you win". On the other side, cure or dispel will not help you to defeat the zillions of shooters on the map, so your first goal should be slow, then haste, at least at basic level. And only then, cure or dispel, mainly for final battle. Because there is a long way until final battle.

The question is, would you, JJ, plan a strategy for increasing your beastmaster chances of getting air, or from the beginning of the game, just give up and go for water because air statistics are low?
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted August 13, 2011 09:25 AM
Edited by JollyJoker at 09:52, 13 Aug 2011.

I'm rusty in the game - haven't played it for 5 years or so, only a bit WoG (so it took some time to remember that Shield will deal with hand-to-hand damage only).

A lot depends. On the actual spell selection at any time, the size of the map, the opponent, and of course what I'm offered.
But I would never forgo Water or Earth Magic offered, in order to keep my chances to get air, since I will always aim to get TWO Magic skills, if map size allows to come near level 20 or up.
In fact I think that would be bad play - provided you have good Earth/Water spells or know there are more sources to get them.

If you play your cards correctly you can afford to take a shot or two - I mean the town was made with that in mind, obviously.

Quote:
The problem with dispel and cure is that they are restorative spells, they only set back to what you had while mass haste, if casted at right moment, gives a big advantage.

Of course, the battle can give the opportunity to choose from millions of possible moves or casts, therefore it is impossible to say "water can make you win, or air will never make you win". On the other side, cure or dispel will not help you to defeat the zillions of shooters on the map, so your first goal should be slow, then haste, at least at basic level. And only then, cure or dispel, mainly for final battle. Because there is a long way until final battle.

I disagree with that. Dispel and Cure are restorative only, if you play mechanically, undoing what opponent does.
You have to consider that with a Beastmaster you will be on the low end of mana. I've seen anough fights switching from lost to won because mana was out in the wrong moment or a turn too early.
Mass Dispel is the best spell you can have when you are low on mana - that is, if opponent has decidedly more. Or even if opponent starts casting. You do not need to dispel everything - the opponent slows you? Fine, you crawl on taking the same shots you'd take anyway. The opponent casts Mass Stone Skin? Fine. Crawl on, second shot. The opponent casts Blind or whatever - now Mass Dispel will clean the table and you reach opponent and hit, having saved.
Mass Cure is great to keep something: opponent casts Mass Slow you cast Mass Shield, and next round Mass Cure - you have to trust on your best stat and that is defense.
You'll beat shooters on the map with Dflies, with or without Tactics. They will buy you the time to go in with heavyer stuff. This is true especially for the dangerous Marksmen and Elves who can do a lot of damage, but do nothing handto-hand.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted August 13, 2011 10:21 AM



Air is better, JJ
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted August 13, 2011 11:33 AM

You must get it first, and even then - that's it. Mass Haste. Not much to go with - except that you are sturdy and can take a bit of a punch, right? So if you don't need anything meaningful else except Mass Haste to win, don't you think that I'll win handsomely, with only Cure/Dispel, being MAYBE a turn slower, but fielding stuff like Mass Shield or Mass Bless?

Your only point is that Mass Haste is good - so will you throw away the game when you don't get it?

If you need this for creeping you should reconsider. Dflies are one of the advantages you get as Fortress, since you can creep with maximum hero speed, initially. Later on, against massive neutrals like Titans, regular Haste for +3 hexes won't help you to make either Hydras or Gorgons fast enough to reach Titans - or act before them for that matter, for everything else you'd still need Tactics - and an early Hydra upgrade. Always being mindful of the difficulty and the richness of the map. You'll still depend on Dflies to block them.
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I ran a couple of tests. I still have maps ready where I can level-up heroes up to 15. Since these are special maps for something else the Fortress Might hero comes with Pathfinding and Armorer.

I've made an interesting discovery here.
I made a couple of runs - no Air Magic. I had left the game completely in between, and when I restarted it, the first run gave me Air Magic on 3rd offer or so - early.
I made the upgrades to level 15, getting Expert Air on the last level, got back to Main Menu (!) and restarted the map from there.
I got offered Air Magic again, this time a bit later, but still early enough.
Same procedure - again Air Magic. This time, however I noticed that Basic Air Magic - again - was on offer with Advanced Pathfinding, which had been the case the run before as well.
So I checked a couple of runs more - MAIN MENU, start the map that was still on default: repeat of the pick opportunities: Air Magic would always come with Advanced Pathfinding on offer.
No idea, whether this is known, but it looks like the "skill ladders" are not reset when you just go to the Main Menu and restart the map from there.

When I left and restarted the game, patterns were changed - no Air Magic again, and not for a couple of runs (restart the game any time).

Forgetfulness is another nice Water spell, by the way.

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maretti
maretti


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted August 13, 2011 01:36 PM

Quote:


Air is better, JJ


Hehe,
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PinkFlamingo
PinkFlamingo


Adventuring Hero
posted August 13, 2011 01:49 PM

Jollyjoker:  I think you may be missing the bigger picture.  Statistics aside considering that the difference of getting cure/dispel with Water Magic vs. Air Magic with Haste is roughly the same especially when you consider neutral towns, Haste is arguably better to combat mass Slow because after you get mass Slowed, you will take some hits, but once initiative goes to you, you can mass haste and will get an extra turn.  

Now, I would normally go with Water Magic with Earth but that's mostly because I don't play online, but I do know from experience that a mass haste to counter a mass slow is pivotal.  It's like an uber cure in that scenario.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted August 13, 2011 02:20 PM

Quote:
Jollyjoker:  I think you may be missing the bigger picture.  Statistics aside considering that the difference of getting cure/dispel with Water Magic vs. Air Magic with Haste is roughly the same especially when you consider neutral towns, Haste is arguably better to combat mass Slow because after you get mass Slowed, you will take some hits, but once initiative goes to you, you can mass haste and will get an extra turn.  
But the same thing will happen against you next turn.
You can't put statistics aside. HoMM is a statistics game. The better you play, the more you have to play with the probablities, except when they are stacked against you. With Fortress there is no reason to forego opportunities like Mass Cure, Mass Bless, Mass Weakness, Mass Forgetfulness in order to get Mass Haste - not to mention Mass Shield, Mass Slow, Mass Stone Skin.
With Mass Haste you'll just swap Slow and Haste, since opponent is bound to have Mass Slow. On the other hand opponent may have Mass Haste - then having Mass Haste yourself won't be that good.
Fortress has the defensive power to be able to afford this, provided you can make Earth and Water count.

Of course everyone must play the way they like. "Hunt for Air Magic". Fine. If that was all there is with the game, it would suck.

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