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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: Fortress Strategy.
Thread: Fortress Strategy. [ This thread is 6 pages long: 1 2 3 4 (5) 6 ]
PinkFlamingo
PinkFlamingo


Adventuring Hero
posted August 13, 2011 02:35 PM

Quote:
Quote:
Jollyjoker:  I think you may be missing the bigger picture.  Statistics aside considering that the difference of getting cure/dispel with Water Magic vs. Air Magic with Haste is roughly the same especially when you consider neutral towns, Haste is arguably better to combat mass Slow because after you get mass Slowed, you will take some hits, but once initiative goes to you, you can mass haste and will get an extra turn.  
But the same thing will happen against you next turn.
You can't put statistics aside. HoMM is a statistics game. The better you play, the more you have to play with the probablities, except when they are stacked against you. With Fortress there is no reason to forego opportunities like Mass Cure, Mass Bless, Mass Weakness, Mass Forgetfulness in order to get Mass Haste - not to mention Mass Shield, Mass Slow, Mass Stone Skin.
With Mass Haste you'll just swap Slow and Haste, since opponent is bound to have Mass Slow. On the other hand opponent may have Mass Haste - then having Mass Haste yourself won't be that good.
Fortress has the defensive power to be able to afford this, provided you can make Earth and Water count.

Of course everyone must play the way they like. "Hunt for Air Magic". Fine. If that was all there is with the game, it would suck.


Mass Bless and Mass Weakness doesn't really matter when you can't reach them to begin with.  Forgetfulness is fantastic, but there's a good chance you won't get it.  At least with level 1 spells, you can decide then and there what kind of magic you want.  

And yes, the same thing CAN occur during their turn, which means you have to utilize your initiative all the more intelligently.  But think about it this way.  Mass haste to counter mass slow is the perfect counterattack.  You will most likely get to reach their monsters during that turn AND you get an extra turn.  It doesn't get much better than that.  If you mass dispel/cure, you might not get an extra turn because if you're playing against let's say Castle or Dungeon, their fastest unit is still faster than your Dragon Fly.  

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B0rsuk
B0rsuk


Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
posted August 14, 2011 12:16 PM
Edited by B0rsuk at 12:22, 14 Aug 2011.

Sorry, I can't resist.

http://mightandmagic.wikia.com/wiki/Mage_Guild_%28H3%29

For Fortress, base chance of getting:

Teleport - 4/10
Forgetfulness - 17/100

Therefore, chance of getting at least one of them:
1 - ((1 - 4/10) * (1 - 17/100)) = 1 - (6/10 * 83/100) = 249/500 . Almost fifty-fifty. Water magic for the win.

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Salamandre Online
Salamandre


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted August 14, 2011 12:27 PM
Edited by Salamandre at 12:27, 14 Aug 2011.

They are only good when sieging a castle, which is not allowed in multiplayer for various reasons. So, unless you play single, haste beat them both, because same effect, but cast only once.

Teleport: move at x location = same effect with haste
Forgetfulness : disable shooting ability = move near them = haste.

And when playing single, you will certainly pick them both, as most of single maps require all magic skills.
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B0rsuk
B0rsuk


Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
posted August 14, 2011 12:28 PM

Wait, what ? Sieges not allowed in multiplayer ? Surely it can't be that silly ?

What if I just teleport Hydras to enemy shooters on my first move ? Is that bad too ? No painless way of removing them.
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Salamandre Online
Salamandre


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted August 14, 2011 12:31 PM
Edited by Salamandre at 12:33, 14 Aug 2011.

Sieges only prolong a game for x hours. A multiplayer game is about who is stronger on a neutral battlefield, and behind a wall there is not really balanced. Obviously the player refusing to meet in open field knows that he will lose. The other player will have to wait for overwhelming force, it is only matter of time.
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B0rsuk
B0rsuk


Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
posted August 14, 2011 12:35 PM
Edited by B0rsuk at 12:36, 14 Aug 2011.

So I'm going to build the guild next turn, I don't want to come out, and this makes me a loser ?


No wonder Fortress is considered a bad faction, when the rules screw them up so much. Blood Obelisk, Glyphs of Fear, Carnivorous Plant... Can I have a link to a set of most popular multiplayer rules ?
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Salamandre Online
Salamandre


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted August 14, 2011 12:39 PM
Edited by Salamandre at 12:52, 14 Aug 2011.

Nothing to do with what you will build. Once you lose access to map facilities, mines, experience and exploration, you can't win. When you hide, you lend all those to the other player who will get only stronger and stronger, while you wait behind the walls. If you hide only for a turn because you want to build something, there is no problem.

Myself I did not care about this rule. If the other player choose to hide behind the walls, he is the perfect training target for endless hit and runs, which will convince him to forget this idea next game. After all, the attacker can take advantage of the siege and block the gate as well, while casting spells.

I think the common rules are no DD/Fly, no sieging and a few others directly related to rmg templates (fight misplaced guards etc).

Fortress is considered one of the strongest factions.
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B0rsuk
B0rsuk


Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
posted August 14, 2011 12:52 PM

Nevermind, I've found some:

http://heroesland.ucoz.ru/publ/wcl_rules/1-1-0-502

I was right to (mostly) stay away from multiplayer since Heroes 2. So much of the game basically thrown away... and I see people not allowing Trading Posts even. I wonder what else. It would be funny if it wasn't sad.


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dimis
dimis


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Digitally signed by FoG
posted August 14, 2011 12:53 PM

Not that it has much to do with the Fortress Strategy, but the calculations are not ok. The reason is simple, the events are not independent. To see easier why the formulas are wrong, just imagine the question of asking what is the probability of receiving at least one of the spells among (and here list all the spells - or to make it even clearer, all spells but say 4). Just by applying the formula the outcome is less than 1, when in fact we know that the answer is precisely 1, since at least one among all those listed is going to appear in the guild for sure.

Also, I didn't check the numbers at the link in the wiki, but if these numbers are different from the ones posted by Ecoris in his thread, then these numbers are simply wrong. I didn't know about that wiki, but not everything seems to be right; e.g. the description on the Probability of learning Offense is not entirely correct.

Just pick Air.
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Salamandre Online
Salamandre


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted August 14, 2011 12:57 PM

B0rsuk: those zillions of rules are mainly for templates. On fixed maps, people used to play with no rules at all back in time. Even DD/fly were allowed. And it was fun.
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted August 14, 2011 01:15 PM

Don't you think that if you were right the game was bad? That one spell with the most unlikely skill would beat everything else. In that case the game was foolish and it was even more foolieh to play it.

Thank whomever this is not the case.

Playing with different rules alters the game and everything based on altered game rules is moot anyway.

Quote:
"Just pick Air."
Sure. Just win the lottery.

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dimis
dimis


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Digitally signed by FoG
posted August 14, 2011 01:18 PM

I miss your avatar. It suited you.
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Salamandre Online
Salamandre


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted August 14, 2011 01:32 PM
Edited by Salamandre at 13:35, 14 Aug 2011.

JJ, if the game was mainly working based on those slim chances, people would not still play it so massively after so many years. As I said, there are other ways to acquire a skill, not only by level up. And even by level up, you can overcome the low chances once you know when and how. It is a complex game, with hundred of ramifications possible.
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted August 14, 2011 01:58 PM
Edited by JollyJoker at 13:59, 14 Aug 2011.

Not, if everything would depend on getting one spell and one skill. That would make the game ridiculously stupid.

Thankfully it's not. If you can Fortress only with Mass Haste, you miss something.

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Elric
Elric

Tavern Dweller
posted August 14, 2011 05:15 PM
Edited by Elric at 17:17, 14 Aug 2011.

Quote:
(JollyJoker)
P.S.: It doesn't look like you ever played AGAINST Fortress led by Tazar that cast Mass Shield on him, with you not having Expert Water Magic to dispel.
Make the Math yourself. Let's say he's level 16, which will give him an additional 12% to his 15% coming from expert Armourer: 27% damage reduction. To that we add 30% damage reduction for Mass Shield.

57% damage reduction. Now consider the high defense value that  will reduce all damage accordingly against your good units. Furthermore ranged damage will be halved due to range, as long as you are out of ranged.
Where does that leave ranged damage?


Shield doesn't protect against ranged attacks.  Additionally, I'm not sure if the "adding percentiles of damage reduction" method would be correct: (1-0.27)*(1-0.3)= 0.511 damage seems more likely.  Anyone more knowledgeable in the internals care to chime in?

Quote:
(B0rsuk) Sorry, I can't resist.

http://mightandmagic.wikia.com/wiki/Mage_Guild_%28H3%29

For Fortress, base chance of getting:

Teleport - 4/10
Forgetfulness - 17/100

Therefore, chance of getting at least one of them:
1 - ((1 - 4/10) * (1 - 17/100)) = 1 - (6/10 * 83/100) = 249/500 . Almost fifty-fifty. Water magic for the win.



This calculation looks like an underestimate of the true probability of getting at least one of these spells.  These probabilities are not independent.

For example, if there are four level 3 spells and building a Mage Guild randomly gets you three of them, the chance you get any particular spell is 75%.  But the chance you get at least one of (2 of these spells) is 1, not 1- (1-0.75)(1-0.75).  

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B0rsuk
B0rsuk


Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
posted August 14, 2011 06:41 PM
Edited by B0rsuk at 18:44, 14 Aug 2011.

You are right, the events are not independent. I calculated as if they were. Hmm, but to make correct calculations I would need the exact per slot chance of a spell appearing in the guild.

Anyway, you can DOUBLE the chance of getting Air Magic with Fortress... if you make Witch your main hero ! (Funny how Beastmaster has exactly the same chance of Water and Earth as a Witch)
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un_boeing
un_boeing

Tavern Dweller
posted April 11, 2012 12:20 PM
Edited by un_boeing at 14:00, 11 Apr 2012.

Nice posts everyone.

I have played Heroes 3 for about 8 years now almost exclusively in multi-player mode and I have come to love and respect the mighty Fortress faction.

I think the one mistake that everyone makes is to emphasize that Fortress is a defensive town, which means the biggest advantage it has over the other is defending against a siege. While that holds true, online games usually don't involve a siege...

Please keep in mind that I'll be referring to L or XL random maps on custom templates like Balance, Frozen Dragons, Extreme etc with multiplayer rules (ban Necro/Conflux/DD/Fly/Red Orb, fight misplaced guards etc). This means that the game will last a couple of months at the least, and both players will have enough time and money to recruit their armies in full.

I think the factions that need to defend are the ones that have a very strong ranged damage output (tower, castle, dungeon and rampart; i left out stronghold, as they are by far the weakest town because of the pathetic att-def rating of most its units and the fact that cyclopes are sooo hard to get). Fortress only boasts one archer unit, which, while undoubtedly hardy, doesn't do that much damage (although, did you know that in equal numbers, lizard warriors defeat marksmen, even though marksmen shoot first?). Which means that Fortress MUST attack those other towns' armies...

Now, in order to successfully achieve your goal (winning the final battle), you MUST reach your opponent's army by the THIRD round.If you have Tactics and he doesn't that won't be a problem. If you both have it or he does and you don't (it can happen; plus when he protects his ranged units he tends to clump up the other units around them, so your hydras will be so much the stronger), I believe, from personal experience, that mass Haste isn't necessary at all. Most players don't start the fight against Fortress with mass Slow, and for good reasons: they can't afford you casting Prayer first round and Cure the second, as the broken arrow damage from first round isn't enough to dent your mighty Fortress army and they don't charge at you in the first place (if they do, they'll find your gorgons, hydras and gnolls in their face with either Bless or Prayer...). So, since mass Haste isn't necessary, Air Magic is also NOT necessary.

Don't get me wrong, I always take Air if offered (Haste is great and Counterstrike even better), but it's nowhere nearly as good as Water Magic (Bless, Cure, Dispel, Teleport, Clone, PRAYER). As for Earth, it is easily the best magic school out there (Slow, Shield, Stone Skin, Anti-Magic, Resurrection, TP, Implosion).

I usually play Tazar in Fortress, so my secondary skills ideally look like this: Armorer(duh), Earth, Wisdom, Offence, Logistics(Pathfinding), Water, Tactics and Air/Pathfinding(Logistics)/Resistance/Archery.

Thanks for reading. Any criticism would be much appreciated.

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KingCrimson
KingCrimson


Hired Hero
posted July 16, 2012 05:03 PM

*intones*

Oh thread long dead,
Writhing in pain,
Arise, Arise,
To post again!

Anyway, now that hopefully all that nonsense about Fortress not getting Haste is dead and buried, it'd be nice to get some more conversation going about the town itself.

I find Fortress a perhaps underpowered but incredibly fascinating town. Its units and strategies are quite unique and to me that makes it a lot of fun to play, even if you don't end up winning.

I love their starting power, for one thing. Flies and Wyverns are great to slap on a scout hero who can go off nabbing guarded treasure, mines and sites far and wide while another hero makes use of Gnolls and Lizards, a less remarkable but still effective combination, to take things close to home.

Obviously late game is where they suffer, where the relative weakness of the Wyvern and the Hydra cause them to struggle a bit against other towns. Nothing insurmountable, but the Fortress player will likely have to be of greater skill than his opponent (hence it being a bit underpowered).

One question I have, though, that hasn't seemed to have really come up, is: What are people's thoughts on the Basilisk? I personally love it, but I think that has more to do with it being a cool unit than its power. It's not as good as Crusaders or Vampire Lords, obviously, but it's still useful. Reasonably powerful, and their special, when it works, is fantastic, taking an enemy unit out of the fight for three turns - or until your Gorgons can get there.

I almost kind of feel as though Fortress strategy revolves a bit around Basilisks, Dragonflies and Wyverns relying on their specials to disrupt the enemy until the Gorgons and Hydras can arrive.
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Peterlerock
Peterlerock


Adventuring Hero
posted July 18, 2012 01:39 AM

The best thing about fortress is their heroes, but unfortunatly for the fortress, those beastmasters are not limited to be used by the fortress alone.

Other Great things:
1. Mighty moo. Where's those lvl7?
2. Easiest siege defense against AI (more often than not he stops in the first mud level and dies there, doesn't even go on to the walls).
3. the starting army (gnolls, lizards and a few flies for distraction) can do a lot of stuff.
4. You never really have severe losses of troops. 1-2 flies here, a few lizards there... with other towns I tend to lose lvl1 and 2 units at some point, the beastmaster usually keeps his troops together...
5. Single flies are wonderful for scouts.

Not so great things:
1. Without pathfinding, exploring the map can be a pain in the butt.
2. Mage Guild only lvl3.
3. It's ridiculous that you have to build a resource silo for upgraded moos.
4. Basilisks are not sooo great if they don't trigger their special. They are tough and hit with ok damage, but since basilics and moos have to do almost all the work (the other units don't do the greatest damage too), I would expect a bit more.
5. Hydra is way too slow.

If I could rewrite the fortress, i would add a little damage to lizards, flies and basiliscs, and +1 speed to hydras.

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mckarpow
mckarpow

Tavern Dweller
posted January 08, 2014 03:22 AM

un_boeing said:
Nice posts everyone.

I have played Heroes 3 for about 8 years now almost exclusively in multi-player mode and I have come to love and respect the mighty Fortress faction.

I think the one mistake that everyone makes is to emphasize that Fortress is a defensive town, which means the biggest advantage it has over the other is defending against a siege. While that holds true, online games usually don't involve a siege...

Please keep in mind that I'll be referring to L or XL random maps on custom templates like Balance, Frozen Dragons, Extreme etc with multiplayer rules (ban Necro/Conflux/DD/Fly/Red Orb, fight misplaced guards etc). This means that the game will last a couple of months at the least, and both players will have enough time and money to recruit their armies in full.

I think the factions that need to defend are the ones that have a very strong ranged damage output (tower, castle, dungeon and rampart; i left out stronghold, as they are by far the weakest town because of the pathetic att-def rating of most its units and the fact that cyclopes are sooo hard to get). Fortress only boasts one archer unit, which, while undoubtedly hardy, doesn't do that much damage (although, did you know that in equal numbers, lizard warriors defeat marksmen, even though marksmen shoot first?). Which means that Fortress MUST attack those other towns' armies...

Now, in order to successfully achieve your goal (winning the final battle), you MUST reach your opponent's army by the THIRD round.If you have Tactics and he doesn't that won't be a problem. If you both have it or he does and you don't (it can happen; plus when he protects his ranged units he tends to clump up the other units around them, so your hydras will be so much the stronger), I believe, from personal experience, that mass Haste isn't necessary at all. Most players don't start the fight against Fortress with mass Slow, and for good reasons: they can't afford you casting Prayer first round and Cure the second, as the broken arrow damage from first round isn't enough to dent your mighty Fortress army and they don't charge at you in the first place (if they do, they'll find your gorgons, hydras and gnolls in their face with either Bless or Prayer...). So, since mass Haste isn't necessary, Air Magic is also NOT necessary.

Don't get me wrong, I always take Air if offered (Haste is great and Counterstrike even better), but it's nowhere nearly as good as Water Magic (Bless, Cure, Dispel, Teleport, Clone, PRAYER). As for Earth, it is easily the best magic school out there (Slow, Shield, Stone Skin, Anti-Magic, Resurrection, TP, Implosion).

I usually play Tazar in Fortress, so my secondary skills ideally look like this: Armorer(duh), Earth, Wisdom, Offence, Logistics(Pathfinding), Water, Tactics and Air/Pathfinding(Logistics)/Resistance/Archery.

Thanks for reading. Any criticism would be much appreciated.


I can accept that somebody bases his strategy on mass hate not mass bless, but I can't agree that pathfinding is good skill for Fortress (unless you play a lot on sand).

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