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Cat
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Gonna Get Dirrty...
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posted July 26, 2002 11:30 PM |
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Gore Vidal is a US citizen, and he largely agrees with the opinion thayt a propaganda war is wht is going on here (I notice my prayers went unoticed...).
I will tell you what I mean by "peacekeeping". In the name of peace, so much has been done in the 20th centuary by so called "super-powers" (not just US, but largely) that coming from anybody else would have been seen as an act of terrorism. Not to meantion the Iran-Contra affair, which was highly disgusting.
As it is, the British PM himself is a scoundrel of the highest order.. I pull no punches of nationality when I feel somebody is unjust and disgusting. "History is written by the winners".. yet it seems the winners are chosen before anything is done.
The capture of Bin Laden is not worth the death of a single innocent. Scatter bombs do not discriminate. The small child, playing with his toys in a field, who has just been told off by his mother and is sulking. He is killed, and his mother is never able to take back her last words to him, a scoulding. The women's liberation leader, attempting to improve conditions. The peasant who mistakes an unexploded scatter bomb for a foot parcel. These people are all as real as every last person killed in the september 11th plane crash disaster. They all walked on the same earth and breathed the same air.. how is this right? It is not:- and Bin Laden cannot be blamed for all of this.
We have armies. Anybody (no offence here) who signs up for the military, signs up to die. It is always a possibility. Alan Silitoe once wrote that anybody who signs up for the army should be locked up for trying to commit suicide. Extream, but a common thought amongst the people I grew up with. If there must be fighting, it should be army for army... not the senseless slaughter to try and fill a void inside.
A man, and an organisation, who think killing will do anything but create martyrs on a grand scale is insane. Insanity cannot be fought with terror campaigns, with blood campaigns. Bin Laden cares not for the dead of a thousand contries, it will not scare him, nor make him weaken. A fanatic cannot be moved by blood, rather he will make a monument of the bloodbath, a grand martyr of each dead body, to drive his followers on.
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 Diwethaf Gloau Sylw y Gymreag
http://aozos.com/phpBB2/index.php
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arachnid
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted July 27, 2002 01:24 AM |
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some famous scottish inventions and ideas.............
adhesive postage stamps
anaesthetics
Bank of England
penicillin
the decimal point
documentary films
Encyclopedia Britannica
engineering sciences
fax machines
first cloned mammal flailing machines
geosciences
golf
historical novels
hypodermic syringes
marmalade
mackintosh raincoats
microwave ovens
colloid chemistry
tubular steel
pneumatic tyres
Peter Pan
radar
polarization
cure for scurvy
King Arthur
Halloween
refrigerators
iron bridges
the steam engine
telephones
thermos flasks
the telegraph
television
sulphuric acid
paraffin
Whisky
US Navy
Economics
On the whole point though, i thinks its really hard to be emotionally involved and caring if its not happening to you or your country. Its just another horrific thing you see on tv, like the fact that Aids which has already killed 19 million people is going to to kill 71 million people in Africa. I mean thats fact is seems so unbelievable it staggers belief, if you have to care and think about every tragidy that happens you would end up insane pretty quickly.
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Conn
Responsible
Famous Hero
God slayer
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posted July 27, 2002 03:12 AM |
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Since we're on the inventions subject....
Let me introduce you to a virtually un-known fact(outside Romania). The inventor of the plane were not the Wright brothers, it was a Romanian guy named Traian Vuia, and he did it in 1893.
Now, there is an explanation for why he isn't known...During those times, in Europe the French Academy was considered the best intelectual gathering around, and anything related to France was very popular here. So, this guy builds a "plane" (well, it looked more like a helicopter...). The main idea, he managed to get it to fly, under mechanical power( steam engine). So, he sends an enthusiastic letter to the french academy. The stuck-ups there read it and send back a reply : " Mechanical flight is not possible." So, the guy was dissapointed and gave up( no one said he was the brightest pebble on the beach, and besides, sometimes even the most brilliant of minds can make the stupidest mistakes...)
OK, now you can just skip over this and get back on topic...Just felt i want to say this...
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 Whatever does not kill us, only makes us stronger
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dArGOn
Famous Hero
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posted July 27, 2002 03:18 AM |
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Celfious thanks for your reasoned post. Man I felt like people were reading a language they didn’t understand for how out of context they responded to my post. You made some very strong points.
Bartrex great post also.
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dArGOn
Famous Hero
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posted July 27, 2002 03:22 AM |
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Edited By: dArGOn on 26 Jul 2002
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Dar_Kraven…yeah you totally understood my point…I definitely want the world to revolve around the US tragedy...and where exactly did I state that in my post??? Also where did I say pity US??? You read English correct? The point…now listen closely… was that ALL humans should treat another’s loss with dignity and respect…NOT mock it. Ok are we on the same page now?
Lews_Therin wait a second…you are trying to compare starvation to an intentional slaughter of innocent lives??? People that are starving are to be helped as I and many others have tried to assist in…but to compare starvation to a malicious attack is quite irrational.
Weapon technology is amoral…it is how it is used that determines its morality. In my opinion USA has for the most part saved thousands upon thousands of lives through this allegedly corrupt technology.
I really have to question where you get the “killed twice the number of civilians” line…that is just blatantly incorrect.
“Hysterical”….where was I hysterical??…again a very simple point was being made…DON’T MOCK ANOTHER PERSONS TRAGEDY. To use your example…I would have to be making a joke out of the civilians who died in the war on terrorism.
As far as I am concerned “fundamentalist” religion has nothing to do with anything. Fundamentalist Christians don’t want to kill people nor do fundamentalist Muslims….only the whacked out the extremist (which is very different than a fundamentalist) of any group perpetrate that kind of evil. Fundamentalist technically means someone who believes in the fundamentals of a religion….and I know for sure that the fundamentals of Christianity NEVER encourage killing innocent human beings and to the best of my knowledge neither do the fundamentals of Islam.
Athimus_Phaeni….quote ”I was hoping that the 4th plane crashed in White House or Statue of Liberty.”…what sort of twisted person are you?
In regards to USA inventing things…now when did I state that means we are the only ones who invented anything? Many nations and people have made awesome inventions that are not from the US….my point was the USA has made NUMEROUS inventions to the world. In fact since you are reading this I take it that you are using a computer and the internet…both American inventions…so if you hate the US so much please cease and desist using any of our evil inventions.
How perceptive to think that USA intentionally tried to kill Afghan citizens….please try to educate yourself on war and history…there are ALWAYS innocent casualties…which are to be avoided at all costs…but to blame US for them is just dumb as it is impossible to fight a war without innocent people being hurt. Could you please note for me ONE SINGLE war where innocent people were not harmed????
Anti-American….that is quite pitiful….I am not anti any nation, including Brazil, that supports peoples right to liberty and freedom.
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dArGOn
Famous Hero
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posted July 27, 2002 03:26 AM |
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Nivek we have very different views on US politics..but that is great in the USA as in other free countries we can express divergent opinions. Bush is doing amazing work in my opinion and I think we should support Israel…but that is me. I agree with your perception about why some hate the US…bring down the big guy….it is still frustrating to see how irrational some USA haters can be.
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted July 27, 2002 03:51 AM |
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I see that no-one has yet proved OBL planned the attacks.
There are some interesting points made here. That Brazillian guy needs shooting in my opinion though.
Pro Americans: Please realise that I am not trying to get at you, but your government backs a country that rampages around it's land rocketing and shelling towns with abbandon.
There is a reason why you are not liked you know. It's kind of similar to the british attitude in colonial times: sail a gunboat into the area fire a huge shell at some natives and wait for them to hand over their land. You act superior and smug as a nation (please note the difference between nation and individual), and do as you please in foreign policy which pisses off a large part of the world. Don't get me wrong anyone would do it if they had your power, but you can't expect to support a country like Israel and then expect the Islamic world to be your Friend.
Also america is using this war as an excuse to fight battles it should have won long ago - eg Sadam in the gulf. Define terrorism? The american public have long supported the IRA and it is only recently that the government banned fund raising for it. The british government have slyly backed and supported the Protestant terrorists in N. Ireland Can we expect bombs to rain down on these countries?
If you want to talk about living in fear how about the people of Afghanistan who have hated their rulers and then are bombed by the US? Or the people of Iraq?
The UN is largely a European background WHAT? it is based and was formed in the US and the US and Russia has dominated it for years!
I am not anti USA at all and to prove it here is my opinions to the anti Americans:
Some of you need to stop being so bloody anti america for the sake of it!
The US has contributed a lot to the defense of freedom and yes it does abuse it's power but what country hasn't. Brazil is hardly a powerhouse of democratic ideals now is it?
To state that US citizens should die in larger numbers is just snowing ignorant and rude. The US citizens are innocent of the crime that is laid before them, it is the Government that your complaint is with. Go and crawl back under the stone you came from Athimus_Phaeni i would rather never have to hear you again if that is your honest opinion.
Try to keep your criticisms to facts please as they make a better argument. You can't just say all Americans are thick and expect the rest of the forum to lie down before your wisdom. Prove your statements or stick to what you can prove like the funding of a serious threat to world security like Israel.
Anyway sorry for the essay it's just both sides have some valid points and both are not seeing them in the other. Try to see both sides of the coin guys it stops you being blinkered
PS
Oh and the British invented the computer with a machine developed by Babbage, and then a machine developed in the 1940's for the enigma machine.
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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dArGOn
Famous Hero
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posted July 27, 2002 03:55 AM |
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Conn…it would be nice if technology had evolved to the degree that no innocent civilians are hurt…but to believe we are any where near that point is quite idealistic and out of touch with reality.
“US brought it on themselves”….oh I love that crap…where do you get off with statements like that?
Personally I wish USA didn’t havet involve itself in other nations affairs…but you know we have something here called responsibility. We have a responsibility to nations that don’t have the power to be free by themselves. Please go ask Afghan woman if they are happy we freed their country…how would you like to be treated like insignificant cattle as they were under the Taliban rule. Try to ask the people suffering genocide in Kosovo if they wanted our assistance. Try asking the nation of Kuwait if they enjoyed having their country overrun by Iraq. Yes we are truly evil people to sacrifice our own lives to help others be free.
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted July 27, 2002 03:58 AM |
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you have a good point m8 but with Kuwait it is more likely that the real reason was both oil (therefore money and votes) and prestige. After all there are pleanty of other trouble spots the west ignores and you have to look into why the west chose those particular areas to free people
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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Sandro
Known Hero
amongs The Undead
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posted July 27, 2002 04:30 AM |
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You know.... it's somethin' like a "spreading Virus"....
After dumping Afgahnistan, then Pakistan, and India... it's the route where he retreat...
I live and born in Asia... and i am not let him conquer whole asia by using "religion" as a shield or "race" as a weapon..
Can't he just sit and watch TV or playing videogames ?
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Darion
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted July 27, 2002 04:42 AM |
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Question:... Do you think that the with invasion of Afghanistan, and if we had captured OSBL right away, that the "war on terrorism" would have stopped?
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Sandro
Known Hero
amongs The Undead
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posted July 27, 2002 04:56 AM |
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No Darion... it's a "Spreading Virus"... battle of Good and Evil... Evil will still exist in this world in many form..
lol!
No i mean.. he teach his son to hate American.. and he still have right-hand-man or somethin' like that. He still have a tons of followers. etc..etc...
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dArGOn
Famous Hero
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posted July 27, 2002 05:15 AM |
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Private Hudson. You are right...we didn't help Kuwait for purely selfless motives. But most things that are done in life have multiple purposes. Say a doctor. He/she wants to heal people but they also enjoy good money. Having multiple motives doesn't diminish some good motives.
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted July 27, 2002 05:37 AM |
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yeah I know that, I also know that we have to choose as the west cannot bail out everywhere. I just wish we chose more on need than greed.
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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Athimus_Phaeni
Famous Hero
Final Fantasy Fan
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posted July 27, 2002 05:44 AM |
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You didnt get my point of view, so i deleted my post and i am out of this thread.
I hope to meet you in other ones that do not mix ethics with governaments(of countries) attitudes.
See you...
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Edit:
For Celfious(next post):
When having a strong(maybe too much)point of view you can be either loved or hated. That is a problem.
And... about my avatar: I dont like it, I am using it only because I am searching for a better one.
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But I won't be
Burned by the reflection
Of the fire in your eyes
As you're starying at the sun
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Celfious
Promising
Legendary Hero
From earth
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posted July 27, 2002 06:07 AM |
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Errgg.. Your avatar looks so mean now. To bad I'm a semi nice guy or I would pull the focus out on you.
I didn't like your post so much, I have it saved to show how mean people can be.
I have a strong point
None of you are representitive's. In this issue were nothing but people thinking or trying to know everything.
We msut realize, that we're not supreme and godly enough to know the awnser's, and at the same time, have human commpasion. Just beacuse I'm american, and your brazilian dosnt mean we're not human's.
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Conn
Responsible
Famous Hero
God slayer
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posted July 27, 2002 01:21 PM |
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Quote:
Conn…it would be nice if technology had evolved to the degree that no innocent civilians are hurt…but to believe we are any where near that point is quite idealistic and out of touch with reality.
Then i guess the decision takers should plan their strikes more carefully then, shouldn't they? For some of the "mistakes", i have a hard time believing that theyare just that...But, that may be just the cynicism(sp?) in me...
Quote:
“US brought it on themselves”….oh I love that crap…where do you get off with statements like that?
Well, for one thing it is my personal opinion...As to where do i come with it, you explained and (partially) agree with it just below...
Quote:
Personally I wish USA didn’t havet involve itself in other nations affairs…but you know we have something here called responsibility. We have a responsibility to nations that don’t have the power to be free by themselves.
That sounds very nice, but who decides who needs "liberation"? Isn't that decided purely on interest, by any chance? Try and be fair, i can tell you of at least three more areas where intervention would be justified, and no one(US or any other country) even says a word about it...That is what i find disgusting, masking the fact that they are protecting their interests under the "freedom" demagogy...
Quote:
Please go ask Afghan woman if they are happy we freed their country…how would you like to be treated like insignificant cattle as they were under the Taliban rule.
And who are the Talibans? Not the Mujahedins(sp?) that during the soviet war were called "heroes" and trained by the US?
Quote:
Try to ask the people suffering genocide in Kosovo if they wanted our assistance.
Now this is one of the "interventions" i found the most disgusting...Let me ask you something: do you know that back in the begining of the 90's the situation was reversed? And the albanians were killing hte serbs in their own country? And that the serbs were afraid to live in their homes, on lands wwhere they had lived for hundreds of years? Where was the UN then? What did the US have to say about it? Eh? Nothing? DOn't believe anything you hear on tv...I live in Romania, just next door to Serbia, so i think i know how things are better than you...DOn't get me wrong, i'm not defending Milosevic, or his actions, the guy is an extremist, and i hate all extremists, i just see both sides of the coin.
One more thing on the subject. Minorithies have rights, sure. But up to what point? If the situation was so bad for the albanians, why didn't they just go home to their country? If after living there for centuries, they didn't consider themselves serbs, then it follows reason that they should move back to their own country, doesn't it? Ahh, but Albania has a very bad echonomical situation, and they had it good in Kosovo...Well, then, they at least should show some repect for the conutry that clothed and fed them, not go around complaining. The situation created there was equally their fault.And, who was making the most trouble after things had settled down a bit? It woudln't happened to have been the "albanian military police", wouldn't it? I think that tells a lot...Plus, Kosovo is an ancient serbian territory, and it has been that since the migratory slav tribes settled there...There are churches from before 1000 ad...How would you like if the chinese residents of the US would ask for Washington, to make their own separate state? You wouldn't like, i'm sure of that, so why should the serbians like it?! If Yugoslavia(at that time) had been part of NATO, no one would have said a word about what's happening there...When the "peacekeeping" troops came first, all the represenative of the states involved said " we don not intend to make a separate state out of Kosovo". Now what's happening? Elections for a local government? Give me a break...What happened there was an invazion, under the mask of peacekeeping, and it created a higly dangerous precedent. But i can tell you one thing: if ever this situation occurs in Romania, and i see UN or NATO troops here, i will be the one shooting them.
Quote:
Try asking the nation of Kuwait if they enjoyed having their country overrun by Iraq. Yes we are truly evil people to sacrifice our own lives to help others be free.
And i am sure that oil was not the major reason for that, yeah...
I think so many people, both in the US and outside of it, would be so much more happy if you kept your troops in your country...No more unneccesary deaths, no more complaining...
As for your "responsabilitie", i swear that the first time the echonomical or political interests don't come first, and the US intervens in a part of the world where it has nothing to gain, just to set things right, i will write ten pages praiseing the USA and giving reasons why it should be the ruler of the world.
You say you don't understand why some people are anti-US against all reasons. Well, what i would like to know is why some poeple are pro-US against all reason...
And just to make a thing clear: i have nothing against americans as human beings, on the contrary, i have friends amongs them, with whom i get along very well. What really makes me sick is the way the foreign policy has been and still is conducted by the US political leaders...
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Whatever does not kill us, only makes us stronger
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Celfious
Promising
Legendary Hero
From earth
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posted July 27, 2002 02:55 PM |
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From now on, I will not read this thread! It's a sensitive area (argument) and everyone think's this, or that.
The bottom line is the argument on both side's cant be decided by anyone but a goddly figure.
The right awnser, will never reveal itself in this argument. IMO, your all(since I cutmyself out of it) getting angry, then posting back to get your point across.. Over and over unitl everyone's sick of it.
I wish you would understand what I'm saying.
--end
And at this very moment, one other on earth is thinking the same, exact thing.. I can feel it!! Just kidding
That was my edit
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mastergenie
Adventuring Hero
Genie taking the Smeg!!!
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posted July 27, 2002 02:55 PM |
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Laugh!
Obviously this will never be solved here. This reminds me of the age-long evolution vs creation discussion, as everybody has their own views and opinions, and will not even consider listening to what everybody else would say about it.
Yes, Terrorism is bad and must be stopped.
Yes, What happened on Sep 11th was a tragedy beyond belief... but lets not be-little the deaths and sacrifces made on that fateful day by arguing our points so strongly just so we can have the satisfaction of feeling that we are right and everybody else is wrong.
Dargon and Celfious: Why bother wasting your breath on everything you're saying if you know all you're going to get back is scorn.
Anyone else who cares enough to read this: Why bother wasting your time replying to Dargon and Celfious when you know that they're never going to change their stance on this issue.
Time's a'wastin. AUSSIES RULE!!!!! =Þ
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 ~maStERgENiE~
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Cat
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Gonna Get Dirrty...
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posted July 27, 2002 03:51 PM |
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This thread is pages long: 
