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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted June 17, 2014 10:22 PM |
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Edited by artu at 22:30, 17 Jun 2014.
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When you say something as mainstream as "men and women should be paid equally", in a modern society, feminist or not, 99 percent will agree with you, anyway. But let's take a more specified example, let's say a feminist defends a quota to be applied in workplaces, that at least 30 percent of employees should be female and this is the practical way of fighting with the taboo of women working some types of jobs. In this case, some people will object to that, because now it is against what they understand from equality: All men and women applying to the job should be treated fair, right? And what about the rights of the employer in the capitalist sense, he should be free to choose who ever he wants, or does he?
This is just an example. Life will throw many more at you:
- Give peace a chance, but I want my right to remain armed all the time.
- Of course, people are equal. But it's Allah's will that wife obeys the husband, are you trying to take away our religious freedom from us?
- Hey, what about the wages of pregnant women? Will they be considered on leave?
- Sir, this club is a traditional club for gentlemen and has been so for the last 300 hundred years. We are a private institution and we have our right, not to accept members. If women want to have a wine tasting club so much, they can establish their own.
Etc, etc, etc...
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 17, 2014 10:36 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 22:36, 17 Jun 2014.
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What reasons - except for the sociopathic "I don't care about people" - are there for not being a feminist? You'd think that the idea of individuals not being restricted by their gender should have a pretty broad appeal in modern cultures.
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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OhforfSake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted June 17, 2014 10:44 PM |
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Not everyone identifies there's a problem to begin with. Especially in those first world western countries with a lot of government protection and general freedom it can be hard to imagine the problem being around them. When it comes to countries abroad, especially third world countries, the issue goes in under a more generalized need of help that isn't only about women being oppressed, but lots of different horrible stuff altogether.
I agree that everyone should be treated equally, but I don't identify myself as a feminist for that reason. For I am beyond that.
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Living time backwards
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Nitramar
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 17, 2014 10:48 PM |
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Edited by Nitramar at 22:51, 17 Jun 2014.
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@artu
Well, I am personally against all gender quotas precisely because they are, as you also say, treating people as non-equals (by treating men and women separately). If there is no better way to solve this "problem", maybe there is a reason why women are underrepresented. You can't put quotas in athletics either just because no women are competing against Usain Bolt for the 100m world record. Equality should be applied mainly to the fair treatment of people in comparable situations (meaning: when it doesn't matter what group they belong to), it does not mean everyone should always be guaranteed the same opportunities to everything, that would be just stupid.
If we follow the premise that all should be treated equally, then religious freedom does not work, true again. But equality of treatment is not the same as complete freedom and does in no way imply it. If a religion exhibits features that contradict the laws then the religion should be practiced without those features, obviously.
I mean, one is allowed to use common sense. You're basically bashing my idea because it would not work perfectly in practice without compromises. Have you ever stumbled across an ideology that did? And even more importantly, are you even defending feminism anymore or are you just attacking (sorry, didn't feel like thinking of a better word) me? I don't mind either way but I just don't see anything about your points applying any better to gender equality than to complete general equality.
In every post, I have talked about equality of treatment, not equal opportunities or even completely equal rights (like, would I want non-pilots to have the right to fly a plane, of course not).
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 17, 2014 10:49 PM |
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OhforfSake said:
I agree that everyone should be treated equally, but I don't identify myself as a feminist for that reason. For I am beyond that.
My position precisely.
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OhforfSake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted June 17, 2014 10:53 PM |
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Nitramar said:
Well, I am personally against all gender quotas precisely because they are, as you also say, treating people as non-equals (by treating men and women separately).
Agreed. They began quotas in my country and I find it ridiculous. If we consider a group of competitors where one to more have a prejudice that removes a factor which otherwise do not affect their competition negatively, it goes to follow that eventually by the free market they're giving themselves a disadvantage. The real questions in my opinion under such circumstances are time and impact.
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Living time backwards
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JoonasTo
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted June 17, 2014 10:57 PM |
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Edited by JoonasTo at 23:00, 17 Jun 2014.
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xerox said:
What reasons - except for the sociopathic "I don't care about people" - are there for not being a feminist? You'd think that the idea of individuals not being restricted by their gender should have a pretty broad appeal in modern cultures.
Plenty, the main reason being that the feminists drive an agenda that furthers the cause of women. They don't give a snow about how men are faring. This should have 50% of the population out of their cause.
And if you support them as a man you're just plain stupid. There is a line where it stops from helping women and goes to hindering men and even the general public. See gender quotas, for example, they're direct causation from feminism and only work to benefit some women at the expense of men and the general public.
I agree with pretty much everything Nitramar has been saying btw.
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DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted June 17, 2014 11:01 PM |
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Edited by artu at 23:23, 17 Jun 2014.
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@Nitamar
What you believe is beside the point, if you are against the quotas for this or that reason and (some fractions of) feminist ideology is not, then they are called feminists and you are not. Hence, there is not one big ideology that can function as an umbrella to everyone, which was my objection to begin with.
There are different names for different ideologies BECAUSE those nuances exist. It's like maps in many scales: The closer you get, more detailed the differences will be presented. Now, if you pick something as mainstream as "little babies shouldn't be tortured to death" you can make everybody agree. Other than that, their differences of ideology will naturally reflect in naming.
@JoonasTo
Both you and Nitramar live in Finland. Northern Europe is like the most advanced area in gender equality policies. I wouldn't exactly call myself a feminist but you happen to look much more empathetic towards their cause, when you live in a Muslim country.
What seem normal to you guys now, had been achieved by feminist movements in the past. So, your objection may be fair if it's something like, "they don't know where to stop" but historically, the feminist movement is a justified movement.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 17, 2014 11:21 PM |
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xerox said:
What reasons - except for the sociopathic "I don't care about people" - are there for not being a feminist? You'd think that the idea of individuals not being restricted by their gender should have a pretty broad appeal in modern cultures.
As Joonas's answer shows, part of the reason is that feminism is horribly misunderstood.
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Eccentric Opinion
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 17, 2014 11:39 PM |
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JoonasTo said:
I agree with pretty much everything Nitramar has been saying btw.
ditto.
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Gnomes2169
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Duke of the Glade
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posted June 17, 2014 11:41 PM |
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OhforfSake said:
I've one question though!
Gnomes2169 said:
women who enlist should be allowed to go to the front lines and fight just like a man who enlisted (I am, in fact, part of this group).
You're a women who wants to go to the front line? 
Gasp, you have discovered my deepest, darkest secret! I am the discovered, I must the escape! No Forfy, sorry to disappoint you, I'm too manly... Er... Male for you to hit on me.
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Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
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OhforfSake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted June 17, 2014 11:42 PM |
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You know there's a rule you can name your discoveries right? I'll name you Forfy's conquest then! 
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Living time backwards
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 17, 2014 11:46 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 23:48, 17 Jun 2014.
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OhforfSake said:
Not everyone identifies there's a problem to begin with. Especially in those first world western countries (---).
Feminism isn't just a "third world" thing. Inequality is a global problem and it certainly exists in Scandinavia aswell. Just a few examples: Men being hugely ahead when it comes to wages, women being more targeted by rape and abuse, men having a tougher time in child custody cases, people being treated based on gender roles rather than as inidivudals etc. These are huge issues in the "first world", in fact, they're probably more acknowledged here since people have the freedom to think more about those issues than basic survival needs.
Quote:
I agree that everyone should be treated equally, but I don't identify myself as a feminist for that reason. For I am beyond that.
Judging by your post in its entirety, I take that as you're "beyond" seeing that people get judged not as individuals, but as a bunch of traits and ideas associated with a gender. Enjoying your privilege?
JoonasTo said:
xerox said:
What reasons - except for the sociopathic "I don't care about people" - are there for not being a feminist? You'd think that the idea of individuals not being restricted by their gender should have a pretty broad appeal in modern cultures.
Plenty, the main reason being that the feminists drive an agenda that furthers the cause of women. They don't give a snow about how men are faring. This should have 50% of the population out of their cause.
Yeah, Mvass is right, this opposition largely steems from people being ignorant about feminism. Feminism isn't just about women, it's about gender-based oppression in general. Thing is, women are in A LOT worse situation than men which is why the primary spotlight is set on them. Also gender quotes is not something widely agreed upon in feminism. Liberal feminists, in particular, oppose it due to being, well liberals, and thus individualists (and giving someone a job because of that person's gender isn't very individualistic).
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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OhforfSake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted June 17, 2014 11:59 PM |
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xerox said:
Just a few examples: Men being hugely ahead when it comes to wages, women being more targeted by rape and abuse, men having a tougher time in child custody cases, people being treated based on gender roles rather than as inidivudals etc.
"Feminism is a collection of movements and ideologies aimed at defining, establishing, and defending equal political, economic, cultural, and social rights for women"
That said. My post was reasons for why not everyone is a feminist. What you wrote has nothing to do with what I answered?
xerox said:
Quote:
I agree that everyone should be treated equally, but I don't identify myself as a feminist for that reason. For I am beyond that.
I take that as you're "beyond" seeing that people get judged not as individuals, but as a bunch of traits and ideas associated with a gender.
HAVE YOU EVER READ ANYTHING I WROTE!?
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Living time backwards
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 18, 2014 12:13 AM |
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OhforfSake said:
xerox said:
Just a few examples: Men being hugely ahead when it comes to wages, women being more targeted by rape and abuse, men having a tougher time in child custody cases, people being treated based on gender roles rather than as inidivudals etc.
"Feminism is a collection of movements and ideologies aimed at defining, establishing, and defending equal political, economic, cultural, and social rights for women"
That said. My post was reasons for why not everyone is a feminist. What you wrote has nothing to do with what I answered?
my you should talk with some feminists instead of relying on the wikipedia definition?
and yeah, you wrote that "maybe people don't care about feminism because it isn't a first world problem", I gave you several examples of where there are problems which feminists acknowledge
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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OhforfSake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted June 18, 2014 12:21 AM |
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No I did not write people don't care about it, because it's not a first world problem.
No I should not rely on a non-wiki definition. Terms have meaning, so if you want to go beyond that meaning, use the proper terms. If you want to fight for equality then I think it's a good choice too, just like fighting for anyone oppressed. I said I'm beyond it, partly as a joke, but also because I think equality should stretch beyond than that which is only for women and someone who claims he's a feminist is focused on the fight for woman's right.
In this thread e.g. meroe said she doesn't care about how a convicted rapist gets treated in jail or nitramar mentioned a lot of different human subgroups and how they should all be treated by being part of the group that is humans, while I'd extend it beyond humans.
In fact I've already written this before in this thread..
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Living time backwards
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Tsar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
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posted June 18, 2014 12:22 AM |
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Is there a reason why women should get equal pay?
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted June 18, 2014 12:23 AM |
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Is there any reason they shouldn't?
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 18, 2014 12:23 AM |
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if they're doing the same job as well as a guy does, why not?
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 18, 2014 12:27 AM |
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Edited by xerox at 00:27, 18 Jun 2014.
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terms are important in the way they are used in discourse, and feminist discourse includes both men, women, sexuality, race etc
it's up to the employer to decide on wges but he or she's an snow if s/he does pay based on gender
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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This thread is pages long: 
