|
|
GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
|
posted October 19, 2015 08:56 PM |
|
|
verriker said:
Bitula said:
I understand this, but it is not a reality any more (it was some decades ago). In current reality (planet Earth 2015) games are bugfests at release and companies are amoral in general. And this trend gets worse. I mean, I find it highly unlikely that a mystical development team backed by a morally correct publisher will magically pop-up in the future who will deliver a bugfree H8 game for you in the near future. So its time to lower our expectations and live with what we have.
well the reality is, there are still far more than enough excellent games like Pillars of Eternity, Age of Wonders 3 etc coming out that respect the end user to prevent the horrible, low-effort unpolished bugfests from ever becoming the norm,
and horrible, low-effort, unpolished bugfests such as Tony Hawk 5 and Heroes 7 clearly continue to be blasted into oblivion by bad press, so I don't think anyone's expectations are soon to change lol
we already have great games, and will continue to be given great new games for our dollar, so obviously crappy new games for our dollar are not something we have any obligation or reason to accept or live with, we're not beggars lol
See, if you read you'd see his point is not that there arent polished on release fames anymore, but that the current trend is "buggy on release"
And no, you arent forced at all, but you have been calling the game snow for months so why did you buy it regardless escapes me lol.
|
|
GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted October 19, 2015 09:18 PM |
|
|
Galaad said:
GenyaArikado said:
But i dont. Go play something else if you want other setting lol.
This is fallacious, for Ashan is taking its dump on the original universe in the first place.
I'm not going to have this conversation with you. I already gave you the only solution for your dilemma that is currently plausible.
|
|
verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
|
|
posted October 19, 2015 09:29 PM |
|
|
GenyaArikado said:
See, if you read you'd see his point is not that there arent polished on release fames anymore, but that the current trend is "buggy on release"
And no, you arent forced at all, but you have been calling the game snow for months so why did you buy it regardless escapes me lol.
and my point is I disagree there is such a strong trend, and certainly that the likes of Heroes 7 are a valid representation of that trend either, it's a very extreme example, that's why it ranks in the lowest 4% of all games listed on Steamspy lol
also, of course I didn't buy it, why would I after already being burned by Heroes 6 lol
____________
|
|
GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted October 20, 2015 05:06 AM |
|
|
verriker said:
GenyaArikado said:
See, if you read you'd see his point is not that there arent polished on release fames anymore, but that the current trend is "buggy on release"
And no, you arent forced at all, but you have been calling the game snow for months so why did you buy it regardless escapes me lol.
and my point is I disagree there is such a strong trend, and certainly that the likes of Heroes 7 are a valid representation of that trend either, it's a very extreme example, that's why it ranks in the lowest 4% of all games listed on Steamspy lol
also, of course I didn't buy it, why would I after already being burned by Heroes 6 lol
Thats not what you said before but w.e. This just means that since you arent a buyer your opinions doest mean snow lol.
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted October 20, 2015 08:18 AM |
|
|
GenyaArikado said:
This just means that since you arent a buyer your opinions doest mean snow lol.
No offense, dude, but that statement explains a lot. However, I'm not going to make any veiled or unveiled references to possible relations between your fondness of the game, your intelligence and that comment (except I just did), I'll just say that you didn't grasp business: YOUR opion means crap because YOU already bought the game which means YOU already gave them your money. HE didn't, so HIS is the interesting opinion, since they want HIS money as well.
Although, there are of course areas the fundamental idea behind this bonmot of yours would be interesting. Say, justice. Only killers could judge a killer. That sounds somewhat spectacular. What, you didn't kill a guy? Sorry, in that case your opinion on me and my kills means nothing.
|
|
Hermes
Famous Hero
|
|
posted October 20, 2015 08:29 AM |
|
Edited by Hermes at 08:32, 20 Oct 2015.
|
What is this nonsense? How does it even connect to what Verriker is saying? The point is, one cannot review the product without testing it by oneself. Period.
Besides, you comment about "you already have them money so your opinion is worthless to them" is just wrong and goes exactly opposite to what business?any business) stands for.
|
|
ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted October 20, 2015 08:40 AM |
|
|
JollyJoker said:
No offense, dude, but that statement explains a lot. However, I'm not going to make any veiled or unveiled references to possible relations between your fondness of the game, your intelligence and that comment (except I just did), I'll just say that you didn't grasp business: YOUR opion means crap because YOU already bought the game which means YOU already gave them your money. HE didn't, so HIS is the interesting opinion, since they want HIS money as well.
Although, there are of course areas the fundamental idea behind this bonmot of yours would be interesting. Say, justice. Only killers could judge a killer. That sounds somewhat spectacular. What, you didn't kill a guy? Sorry, in that case your opinion on me and my kills means nothing.
So buying an unfinished game equals killing someone?
Killing your wallet maybe... *sigh....
Lets settle for a milder approach: someone has tasted an apple. Another person hasn't. Whose opinion would you trust more?
I'll compromise to the general fact that anyone can have an opinion about this game,but a person who is currently playing the game, has a more substancial one,whether it's bad or good.
____________
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted October 20, 2015 08:56 AM |
|
|
Verriker isn't talking about a review of the game - he's making a statement about the BUGGINESS of it. It shouldn't be worth a dispute that you can do that without having had a couple of crashes yourself - reading the bug threads is just enough.
Also, if you've eaten apples - tasty ones, as well as biting in rotten ones - that gives you a certain amount of experience with apples in general and you will register telltale details on the next one they serve you that may save you the experience of having to stomach another foul one. The game is called M&M: Heroes 7, after all. If it was called Heroes of Ashan, while it was a different apple, you still had the buzz of a year pre-release chit-chat and so on - you'd still try and build an opinion about whether to buy or not.
You see, the most silly idea is that only buyers can be judges, because your first thing to judge is whether to buy at all. See the problem with your approach here? If you must buy to judge you are screwed, because what happens if you buy and your judgement is "I shouldn't have bought that"?
Which means, pre-buy-judgement is a necessity, otherwise, as a customer you are screwed.
Any more silly ideas to tout?
|
|
verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
|
|
posted October 20, 2015 09:26 AM |
|
Edited by verriker at 09:31, 20 Oct 2015.
|
GenyaArikado said:
Thats not what you said before but w.e. This just means that since you arent a buyer your opinions doest mean snow lol.
I can confidently promise you I never said I bought this game anywhere, really don't know where you got that idea from lol
ChrisD1 said:
Lets settle for a milder approach: someone has tasted an apple. Another person hasn't. Whose opinion would you trust more?
if the other person has been an apple taster for several years, has constantly checked in on the apple as it grew in its orchard, eaten a fairly big free sample of the apple slightly earlier on as it was close to ripening, dissected and studied the apple in great depth, spoken at length to people who choked on the apple, listened to hundreds and hundreds of the wider audience's opinions on the apple (for good or bad), met many of the people who planted the apple seed, and watched many hours of videos in which people actively consume and barf up little bits of the apple,
I would agree that their opinion may be slightly less substantial, but ultimately I'd say that they'd done so much due diligence that their opinion was completely valid, and that they couldn't be blamed for not rushing down with wads of cash to buy the apple for full price just to confirm what he already knows lol
____________
|
|
ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted October 20, 2015 09:31 AM |
|
|
JollyJoker said:
You see, the most silly idea is that only buyers can be judges, because your first thing to judge is whether to buy at all. See the problem with your approach here? If you must buy to judge you are screwed, because what happens if you buy and your judgement is "I shouldn't have bought that"?
Which means, pre-buy-judgement is a necessity, otherwise, as a customer you are screwed.
Any more silly ideas to tout?
Well next time i will be more cautious. Like i was after heroes 6 ,and didn't spend more than 35€ for this game, with money i actually had to spare in case this game was a disaster.
Who ever said that only buyers can judge?/i said that a buyer has a more rounded up opinion . Even if that is bad or good. And i'm trying hard to be nice here,pls do the same.
____________
|
|
Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
|
|
posted October 20, 2015 09:47 AM |
|
|
Why do you think that JJ's and Genya's concepts of "judgement" are opposites? I think not, just two sides of the same coin. Find the middle ground. JJ is right - in terms of business and in bigger picture the opinion of those who're already "milked" means nothing, it's the opinion of those who're going to be potentially "milked" that matters. Makes you wonder why devs more and more follow the popular trends - in order to "milk" new audience. In terms of marketing, why should you listen to "long-timers" - most of them will buy Heroes just because it's Heroes. Or (I think it was a brilliant move from devs) because of Lost Tales. IIRC, Stevie preordered (!) the game as he heard about Axeoth campaigns.
That said, if a vast % of milked players are dissatisfied, then their opinions should become relevant in order to not lose the playerbase.
But, Genya is also right (as much as it's difficult for me to say that, maybe I misunderstood his initial point). If one hasn't bought the game and tried it for oneself, then how can you form your own opinion, your own "judgement"? Reviews, forum posts etc are highly subjective. Haters gonna hate, lovers gonna love, whom to believe if not oneself? And in terms of development (!) the opinion of those "couch generals" doesn't matter at all - "they haven't even tried the thing they discuss, how can they possibly even discuss this?"
It's like discussing a, let's say, statue, a piece of art which you haven't even seen but only heard of.
Though *some* gonna have a trouble comparing H7 to "a piece of art". ^^
P.S.: my apologies to JJ and Genya if I didn't understand your points correctly.
____________
Let's play poker game, lich-style!
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted October 20, 2015 10:09 AM |
|
|
@Sandro400
Well, your main strategy of a customer is to make sure an item is worth buying, BEFORE buying it, because otherwise you'll end up with a lot of stuff you spent money on, only to learn that you just wasted it on crap.
Now, if you could judge a product only AFTER buying, this would actually be in violation of your interest as a customer to spend your money only on things you actually like or need, right?
Incidentally, that's what demo versions were made for in the good old times - and that's also one of the reason free-to-play games would seem to look like a good idea on first look.
Obviously, everone with an interest in whether the game is or is not good will try and gather information about it BEFORE spending money on it, because you have to decide WHETHER to spend money on it AT ALL. So deciding on NOT buying it means UNFAVORABLE IMPRESSION.
However, there is a much simpler, more economical aspect here. Suppose, pre-ordering would give you a substantial discount; also buying the game within the first 4 weeks after release would give you a still notable discount - in that case it would make sense to go for it with a view on it's unfinished status.
The way it is, actually, you MUST wait buying the game: 1) it will become more playable; 2) it will become cheaper.
Which means, economically spoken, pre-ordering or buying a game right after release is a loser's decision. Losers, however, don't like being what they are, which means you can't trust the judgement of pre-orderers and early buyers, because their buying decision is unsound.
|
|
Bitula
Known Hero
|
|
posted October 20, 2015 10:12 AM |
|
|
verriker said:
well the reality is, there are still far more than enough excellent games like Pillars of Eternity
I read Pillars of Eternity forums on daily basis, so I have no idea what you are talking about. Pillars was a bugfest at release, and after several months of patching it’s still full of bugs. And they change balance, make nerfs etc in every patch so the game is really unplayable across different versions. This doesn’t mean I won’t buy Pillars. I definitely will when it reaches a polished level. And yes, as someone said correctly: I’m not saying games are unpolished, I say they are unpolished at release. The gaming industry is not doomed, it just changed (like the world itself, in a bad direction, but tolerable). H7 is playable, it is as playable as pillars was after a week of patching at least that is what I gathered from people who actually play the game. That I don’t support UBI with buying unfinished product is maybe slightly amoral from my side, but that is another issue.
|
|
ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted October 20, 2015 10:21 AM |
|
|
there is always middle ground. And there are different kinds of opinions.
I'm talking about the opinions of persons who bought and played the game,so me as a potential buyer, could know if the game is any good ,from a fellow gamer. I decided to buy the game after i saw a certain person's comment here,that the game got smoother.
The other opinion is the one the companies care about,so they tend to notice the "potential buyers' " opinion more.
____________
|
|
Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
|
|
posted October 20, 2015 10:25 AM |
|
|
@ JJ
Well, thanks for elaborating, though I already said that I agree with you from an economical/marketing point of view. But here's this one quote which may be understood from 2 different points:
JJ said:
Which means, economically spoken, pre-ordering or buying a game right after release is a loser's decision. Losers, however, don't like being what they are, which means you can't trust the judgement of pre-orderers and early buyers, because their buying decision is unsound.
In terms of marketing, yeah, these guys are "losers" (whoever bought the game, deal with it, remember that the core word here is "to lose" and you've lost at least money, so don't take that personally), but those same losers may well be big fans of the franchise or the big chunk of the playerbase who don't visit/rarely visit forums. You know, the kind of guys who simply love the title and never have thought about the positives of buying the game later. Or they simply aren't patient enough etc, I think you understand what I mean.
And while their buying decision is unsound, it doesn't make their opinions about the game itself (about balancing, campaigns, the quality of maps etc) less viable.
And it's the opinions of those who tried the finished (officially finished, I know many guys here won't support that statement, but deal with it as well) product that matter to the developers, the guys who actually make the game and work on it, not the guys who sell it.
|
|
verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
|
|
posted October 20, 2015 11:15 AM |
|
|
Bitula said:
I read Pillars of Eternity forums on daily basis, so I have no idea what you are talking about. Pillars was a bugfest at release, and after several months of patching it’s still full of bugs. And they change balance, make nerfs etc in every patch so the game is really unplayable across different versions. This doesn’t mean I won’t buy Pillars. I definitely will when it reaches a polished level. And yes, as someone said correctly: I’m not saying games are unpolished, I say they are unpolished at release. The gaming industry is not doomed, it just changed (like the world itself, in a bad direction, but tolerable). H7 is playable, it is as playable as pillars was after a week of patching at least that is what I gathered from people who actually play the game. That I don’t support UBI with buying unfinished product is maybe slightly amoral from my side, but that is another issue.
lol, sorry man, Pillars of Eternity is a game I followed at least as much as this one, and if you think "horrible, low-effort unpolished bugfest" was ever a valid label for that game then we must be on a completely different planet lol
if you think I suggest that games must always release with literally no bugs at all or that bugs are unforgivable, you misunderstand, that is not reality but is utopia, I'm concerned with not standing for the true dystopic junkware out there such as Tony Hawk 5, Heroes 7, Ass Creed Unity, Simcity, Battlefield 4, Colonial Marines, Arkham Knight PC, etc lol
____________
|
|
gomaki
Shaper of Lore
Community Manager, Limbic Ent.
|
|
posted October 20, 2015 11:32 AM |
|
|
Morning HC. Interesting topic of discussion.
For me personally I look at every ones opinion objectively and weigh up what they've said before. Just because someone is a hater of Heroes (insert whatever # you don't like here) doesn't mean I dismiss what they have to say and I collate lots of feedback both negative and positive to push forward to the relevant people and then discuss what we can do. Sometimes things fall on deaf ears, sometimes it's simply not feasible to make certain changes with in many different constraints and other times we really push for the change and it goes through.
Remember we are going to continue to support the game. There will be more 'official' posts soon regarding future support patches, what to expect in them and whatever else.
To that end what I would like to see is a thread with your personal top 5 changes or fixes to H7 you want to see that you think will make the game better for everyone. I don't want really small details or super specific stuff, and remember what you're picking, If relevant will be presented in our feedback meeting next week so we can make some changes. An example list;
1) Council hub scene improved
2) Memory leaks gone
3) More color saturation or options to change/choose how it looks
4) Better combat AI
5) More content
Something like this. You can put a little explanation as to why you picked something if you like but all i'm trying to do is a get a general consensus among many communities.
This will be relevant to me until Monday 26th so I have a day to gather everything and make a fancy looking report.
|
|
Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
|
|
posted October 20, 2015 12:11 PM |
|
|
gomaki said:
Just because someone is a hater of Heroes
...
____________
|
|
Bitula
Known Hero
|
|
posted October 20, 2015 12:12 PM |
|
|
verriker said:
Bitula said:
I read Pillars of Eternity forums on daily basis, so I have no idea what you are talking about. Pillars was a bugfest at release, and after several months of patching it’s still full of bugs. And they change balance, make nerfs etc in every patch so the game is really unplayable across different versions. This doesn’t mean I won’t buy Pillars. I definitely will when it reaches a polished level. And yes, as someone said correctly: I’m not saying games are unpolished, I say they are unpolished at release. The gaming industry is not doomed, it just changed (like the world itself, in a bad direction, but tolerable). H7 is playable, it is as playable as pillars was after a week of patching at least that is what I gathered from people who actually play the game. That I don’t support UBI with buying unfinished product is maybe slightly amoral from my side, but that is another issue.
lol, sorry man, Pillars of Eternity is a game I followed at least as much as this one, and if you think "horrible, low-effort unpolished bugfest" was ever a valid label for that game then we must be on a completely different planet lol
if you think I suggest that games must always release with literally no bugs at all or that bugs are unforgivable, you misunderstand, that is not reality but is utopia, I'm concerned with not standing for the true dystopic junkware out there such as Tony Hawk 5, Heroes 7, Ass Creed Unity, Simcity, Battlefield 4, Colonial Marines, Arkham Knight PC, etc lol
Neither H7 nor Pillars was a "horrible, low-effort unpolished bugfest". Both had showstopper bugs on the day of release. For H7 week 1 patch resolved lot's of bugs and included optimizations. Regarding optimization there is a similar problem with Unity 5 of Pillars resulting in slow loading times and the game requires quite high hardware spec considering it is partially 2D. And the AI just recently got to an acceptable level, after several months. So yes, we seem to live on different planets and read different forums. You tend to ignore the simple fact that H7 was released slightly more than a week ago (and the patches being released ATM), whereas Pillars is in a bugfix process since almost half a year. No way can you tell at this point of time which one will turn out more polished, but IMO they will achieve a similar level.
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted October 20, 2015 12:32 PM |
|
|
Sandro400 said:
In terms of marketing, yeah, these guys are "losers" (whoever bought the game, deal with it, remember that the core word here is "to lose" and you've lost at least money, so don't take that personally), but those same losers may well be big fans of the franchise or the big chunk of the playerbase who don't visit/rarely visit forums. You know, the kind of guys who simply love the title and never have thought about the positives of buying the game later. Or they simply aren't patient enough etc, I think you understand what I mean.
And while their buying decision is unsound, it doesn't make their opinions about the game itself (about balancing, campaigns, the quality of maps etc) less viable.
On the contrary, their opinions are DOUBLY less viable because 1) they made an unsound buying decision, so they have a self-interest to justify their decision by rating the game better than it is (which is an effect you can see when you read user-ratings like this one, giving 8/10, when it should be less based on what you read; 2) they are also FANS who love the title; fans tend to rate a game either way too positive or way too negative; too positive, when the impression is "favorable", and too negative, when the impression is unfavorable and both can hinge on small details...
|
| |
|
|
This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
