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dredknight
Honorable
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
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posted April 25, 2017 11:00 AM |
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strigvir
Adventuring Hero
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posted April 25, 2017 11:59 AM |
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thGryphn said:
More directly, I am trying to achieve this: If the attacker has Offense and the defender has Defense at the same skill level, then the damage modifications should cancel each other.
No, they should not. The defending stack at disadvantage because of reduced number of units after being attacked. Defense should really contribute the damage reduction to worth a skill slot, especially since its skills are kinda trash anyway, if not playing heroes with T1-2 specialization.
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thGryphn
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted April 25, 2017 12:22 PM |
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Edited by thGryphn at 12:26, 25 Apr 2017.
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magnomagus said:
Quote: +6 A with (A-D)=0 to begin with increases damage by 19.8%
Ok I think it still wasn't clear what i meant:
if A-D = 0 then the value of Offense SECONDARY SKILL = 6A on melee
because 1.2 x 1 = 1.2
BUT
if A-D = 6 then the value of Offense SECONDARY SKILL is already more than 7A on melee
because 1.2 x 1.2 x 1 = 1.44 and NOT 1.4
So what I'm trying to tell you is you can't raise Offense over 20% because than it becomes more powerful than the invested slots allow.
So while offense can grow up to being worth 10A, with defense secondary skill it is the other way around, it is worth around 10D at the start but lowers in value the more D primary skill you have.
You're still making comparisons in nominal terms, as in doing subtractions only. That's not the right way of thinking. You should balance it out in relative terms, as I did above, comparing the % change.
Very unnecessarily, you're focusing on the interaction of Attack primary skill and Offense Secondary skill (and similarly, the interaction between Defense primary and secondary skills) on the resulting NOMINAL impact.
The fact of the matter is, Offense increases damage done by (say) 20%, regardless of the starting point, regardless of the A value or defender's Defense or D value. Similarly, Defense secondary skill has a constant relative % damage reduction, regardless of what other skills or stats are.
What I did for you in my above post, I calculated the relative % impact of +6 A increase on the damage output, and as you can see, it's not a constant relative % impact (it maxes out at around 21% and diminishes at either end of the A-D axis). Likewise, I showed that the relative % impact of +6 D increase is also not constant (maxing at around 17% and diminishes at either end of the D-A axis).
I looked at the impact of +6 primary skill increases only because you wanted to make the Expert level Offense skill be equivalent to +6 A, and Expert Defense to +6 D. As a result, you can see that +6 A has a maximum relative impact of 21%, so you can set Expert Offense to 21%. Similarly, +6 D has a maximum relative impact of 17%, so you can set Expert Defense to 17%.
Regardless of that exercise, and regardless of how many primary skill points should the secondary skill be worth, what matters is that Offense (of the attacker) and Defense (of the defender) secondary skills should cancel each other out at the same skill level. Basic to Basic, Advanced to Advanced, Expert to Expert. That's the only way you can say Offense and Defense skills are balanced.
The little math is that we need (1 + OffenseFactor) * (1 - DefenseFactor) = 1.0. If Offense Factor is 20% or 21%, then DefenseFactor we must have is 17%, etc.
strigvir said:
thGryphn said:
More directly, I am trying to achieve this: If the attacker has Offense and the defender has Defense at the same skill level, then the damage modifications should cancel each other.
No, they should not. The defending stack at disadvantage because of reduced number of units after being attacked. Defense should really contribute the damage reduction to worth a skill slot, especially since its skills are kinda trash anyway, if not playing heroes with T1-2 specialization.
I think you're getting this wrong completely. Damage is calculated at the moment of first attack, and the calculated damage has nothing to do with the stack size of the defender. Please check the damage calculation formula.
Currently, Defense is so powerful that when an attacker with Expert Offense hits a defender with Expert Defense, the damage gets reduced to 90%. Meaning, the skill slots invested for Expert Offense melts away when faced with Expert Defense plus you lose 10% of your damage as the attacker. That's not right.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted April 25, 2017 04:17 PM |
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Quote: That's the only way you can say Offense and Defense skills are balanced.
That's is not entirely true, If both modify damage by 100% they are both overpowered even if they cancel each other out perfectly.
I don't want them to be worth exactly 6A or 6D since they only affect melee, they are therefore allowed to boost more and also if they don't work as primary skills that is a good thing otherwise they are even more boring skills (so I disagree with dredknights idea).
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted April 25, 2017 04:38 PM |
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My conclusion so far is that I prefer setting both to 10-15-20, because I don't like the weird numbering that will be incomprehensible by people who didn't read all this stuff.
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thGryphn
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted April 25, 2017 04:56 PM |
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magnomagus said:
Quote: That's the only way you can say Offense and Defense skills are balanced.
That's is not entirely true, If both modify damage by 100% they are both overpowered even if they cancel each other out perfectly.
Well, yeah, I had only meant in comparison to each other...
magnomagus said:
I don't want them to be worth exactly 6A or 6D since they only affect melee, they are therefore allowed to boost more and also if they don't work as primary skills that is a good thing otherwise they are even more boring skills (so I disagree with dredknights idea).
I agree that primary and secondary skills on Attack (Offense) and Defense should work at least slightly differently, and currently they do work slightly differently. Secondary skills of Offense/Defense always give a constant relative % increase/decrease to damage calculated, where as A and D (primary skills) impact the damage in a concave (non-linear) manner.
Assuming you change the damage factor to 3% (down from 3.3%), if you set Expert Offense to 19% (which is the maximum impact of +6 A), and Expert Defense to 16% (which is the maximum impact of +6 D), you will have achieved what you just said: Offense and Defense giving more boost than +6 A and +6 D, respectively.
So, here is my comprehensive proposal on this matter:
1) Reduce damage factor of (A-D)//(D-A) to 3%.
2) Change the Offense skill bonuses to 7 - 13 - 19 %.
3) Change the Defense skill bonuses to 6 - 11 - 16 %.
4) Reduce Luck multiplier to 1.60, which translates to expected damage increase of 6 - 12 - 18 % across the Luck skill levels (note, Luck can go as high as +5, which would translate to 30% expected damage increase). Critical hit multiplier would then be 1.76, which translates to expected damage increase of 7.6 - 15.2 - 22.8 % across Luck skill levels.
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thGryphn
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted April 25, 2017 04:58 PM |
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Edited by thGryphn at 17:05, 25 Apr 2017.
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magnomagus said: My conclusion so far is that I prefer setting both to 10-15-20, because I don't like the weird numbering that will be incomprehensible by people who didn't read all this stuff.
This post ninja'd me.
I proposed integer values above... come on, people understand integers
Edit: If anyone asks why these values, you can direct them to this discussion
I mean, seriously, OK, everybody likes round numbers, but if the purpose is accuracy, balance and consistency, I think everybody here would appreciate the justification of using values other than factors of 5 and 10, especially Heroes players. Novice players wouldn't read too much into such details anyway, so you're not gonna lose them either...
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted April 25, 2017 05:26 PM |
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No your numbers are very ugly and the difference is irrelevantly small. Both these secondary skills have perks that offer far bigger situational differences.
Even if I go down to 0.3, I like them to be quite a bit stronger then 6 primary skills, since you actually need 4 slots (+archery or evasion) to get the full effect of the equivalent primary skills.
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thGryphn
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted April 25, 2017 05:36 PM |
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Edited by thGryphn at 17:42, 25 Apr 2017.
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Ugly?? Stop shaming my numbers!
Anyway, now that you want them to be a bit stronger, how about:
Offense: 10 - 17.5 - 25 %
Defense: 10 - 15 - 20 %
These are the exact same numbers used now, just swapped between Offense and Defense , which interestingly balances them out... Also, these numbers make Offense and Defense roughly equal to +8 primary skills (when used with 3% damage factor), which should tick another checkbox
Edit: For the sake of balance, you should also increase Archery bonus to 25%, while keeping Evasion at 20%.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted April 25, 2017 05:55 PM |
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ok, that makes sense, but i would keep evasion and archery both 20% to further downgrade shooters vs melee
..and luck also stays as is, since it does affect both shooters and melee.
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thGryphn
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted April 25, 2017 07:17 PM |
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magnomagus said: ok, that makes sense, but i would keep evasion and archery both 20% to further downgrade shooters vs melee
I have mixed feelings about this, which is why I was hesitant to bring it up...
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dredknight
Honorable
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
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posted April 26, 2017 08:59 PM |
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While diggin NCF stuff I bumped into this article yesterday. I download the file and put it in my HMM55 + NCF installation.
first try, launched the ARMG and made a map nothing happened.
second try, launched MMH55_64_NCF and made a game on default ToTe map - Creatures on the map were NCF! Repeated it a few times result was the same.
img1
img2
I believe it doesnt work with RMG and ARMG because they place static monsters out of their database while default ToTe maps use random block monsters which are pulled out of the Simonak directories when the game is created, so basically every time I launched the same ToTE map I got different creatures (NCF and original).
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted April 27, 2017 12:12 PM |
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yeah I know that file in the datapak, but it is only useful for individual modding since it would need to be revised for every personal combination of NCF creatures
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dredknight
Honorable
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
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posted April 27, 2017 12:15 PM |
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Just to make it clear for myself, this means that if NCF is implemented in the ARMG, for every new creatures someone should edit the ARMG database with information that regards its tier, growth per week and probably power rating?
Could you point me a file at which this thing happens in the mod?
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted April 27, 2017 03:36 PM |
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dredknight
Honorable
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
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posted April 27, 2017 07:25 PM |
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True. Frankly I am just poking around here and there so I can get a better idea on how things work around NCF and creature randomization in general. I want to make each NCF creature in separate .pak file and all of them to be installed via windows wizard (just like MMH55 or the manual) and the user to be possible to filter out creatures (or groups of them) during the installation.
For your knowledge all packages will begin with NCF_creature_<ID> where ID will be the id of the creature.
Another idea is NCF_creature_<id>_<group> where group is the group the creature is bound to. For example Undead_extension or wolf_extension etc.
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azalen
Responsible
Known Hero
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posted April 27, 2017 11:50 PM |
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thGryphn said:
You should really read my posts before commenting on them. I am not assuming anything and I sure know how H5 combat works. I am trying to balance the impact of Offense and Defense secondary skills on the damage outcome. If it wasn't clear, we are talking about the Offense of the attacker and the Defense of the defender.
More directly, I am trying to achieve this: If the attacker has Offense and the defender has Defense at the same skill level, then the damage modifications should cancel each other. For example, Expert Defense should nullify the damage bonus of Expert Offense. Vice versa, Advanced Offense should nullify the damage penalty of Advanced Defense. Currently, this is not achieved, and Defense is trumping Offense.
You stated earlier that you believe initiative is an overpowered stat (I agree with you). So, isn't it reasonable that Defense is stronger than Attack to somewhat balance the advantages of high initiative factions against slower factions?
For example, undead are already bad late game, but with a nerfed defense skill, they'd become nearly unplayable.
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dredknight
Honorable
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
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posted April 27, 2017 11:55 PM |
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azalen said: For example, undead are already bad late game, but with a nerfed defense skill, they'd become nearly unplayable.
I am not convinced than undead are unplayable. I have had numerous overwhelming wins by overrunning the enemy with numbers. Also undead never ever have losses since day 1 due to raise dead spell and vampires.
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azalen
Responsible
Known Hero
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posted April 28, 2017 12:49 AM |
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dredknight said:
azalen said: For example, undead are already bad late game, but with a nerfed defense skill, they'd become nearly unplayable.
I am not convinced than undead are unplayable. I have had numerous overwhelming wins by overrunning the enemy with numbers. Also undead never ever have losses since day 1 due to raise dead spell and vampires.
I'm not arguing that Undead are a bad faction.
Their advantage is creeping easy mode, as you state, with raise dead, vampires, and ghost blockers. Their path to success is to break the gatekeeper stacks early compared to other factions and then proceed to overwhelm their opponents with sheer stats from major artifacts.
However, if the opponent happens to be Sylven, Dwarven, Haven, Dungeon, etc... and they get to the late game, they are at a major disadvantage due to weaker units and their opponent having access to morale effects.
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Skeggy
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted April 29, 2017 05:50 PM |
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azalen said:
dredknight said:
azalen said: For example, undead are already bad late game, but with a nerfed defense skill, they'd become nearly unplayable.
I am not convinced than undead are unplayable. I have had numerous overwhelming wins by overrunning the enemy with numbers. Also undead never ever have losses since day 1 due to raise dead spell and vampires.
I'm not arguing that Undead are a bad faction.
Their advantage is creeping easy mode, as you state, with raise dead, vampires, and ghost blockers. Their path to success is to break the gatekeeper stacks early compared to other factions and then proceed to overwhelm their opponents with sheer stats from major artifacts.
However, if the opponent happens to be Sylven, Dwarven, Haven, Dungeon, etc... and they get to the late game, they are at a major disadvantage due to weaker units and their opponent having access to morale effects.
Perhaps you should try to play with Xerxon with configuration like this:
expert leadership, prayer, last stand
expert attack with battle frenzy, retribution and power of speed
expert defense with vitality, stand your ground and power of stone (or protection from magic attacks perhaps)
expert necromancy with cold steel, chilling bones and banshee howl (chilling bones especially helpful with phantom forces)
expert combat with martial arts, chain attack and stunning strike
expert enlightenment and expert dark
Only comparison of one custom build with other can give accurate perception of enormous dynamism in battles and Heroes builds that MMH 5.5 gives.
That is why new duel presets are needed.
Why all editors crashes when I try to create new duel presets?
All of them, MMH55_Editor_64.exe, MMH55_Editor.exe, H5_MapEditor.exe crashes.
I bypassed the problem with creating specific mini maps with specific supplies for rapid hero leveling, but that is not quite the same thing.
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