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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted March 17, 2025 06:01 PM |
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purerogue3 said:
The only way a smaller state can exist next to a much larger state is either as a vassal or puppet. Give up some automony or enter proxy conflict. See Vietnam and Korea.
Finland choose a step into direction of conflict, when it choose to forget the magnamity of Soviet restraint at the end of the last conflict.
If it sounds like a threat, what does choosing Nato (guess you chose wrong) sound like to Russia? It sounds like, "Yes, I have signed up to the greater US army against Russia. I forgot I am a woman who does not inherently think about consequences"
You thought I didn't know Finnish history.. In 1862 Finland was proud of its strong currency.. When the shopping cart contained wine, bread, meat, etc.. But the currency's value crashed and Finnish people planned a rebellion for a very long time until the fateful 1917..
And later in a different year, no NATO etc.. We expected some villain, because peace was more important than alliance.. It was due to a different experience..
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Blizzard
Known Hero
Urban Legend
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posted March 17, 2025 06:04 PM |
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Edited by Blizzard at 18:16, 17 Mar 2025.
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Let's pressure countries in Asia who are also trading partners and strategic allies to lower their own standard of living in order to coerce Putin into a settlement in Ukraine. I am sure they will readily go along with this.
This is JJ's plan. This is what he thinks the US should do. It should just screw itself over endlessly.
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purerogue3
Known Hero
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posted March 17, 2025 06:10 PM |
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Ghost said:
You thought I didn't know Finnish history.. In 1862 Finland was proud of its strong currency.. When the shopping cart contained wine, bread, meat, etc.. But the currency's value crashed and Finnish people planned a rebellion for a very long time until the fateful 1917..
And later in a different year, no NATO etc.. We expected some villain, because peace was more important than alliance.. It was due to a different experience..
What's wrong with a little submission to the man? 
Ofcourse, the 'ultimate' aim of euro-american cultural victory means India and the rest of (the derogatory term) "Global South" becomes the third player.
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted March 17, 2025 06:16 PM |
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purerogue3 said:
Ghost said:
You thought I didn't know Finnish history.. In 1862 Finland was proud of its strong currency.. When the shopping cart contained wine, bread, meat, etc.. But the currency's value crashed and Finnish people planned a rebellion for a very long time until the fateful 1917..
And later in a different year, no NATO etc.. We expected some villain, because peace was more important than alliance.. It was due to a different experience..
What's wrong with a little submission to the man?
Ofcourse, the 'ultimate' aim of euro-american cultural victory means India and the rest of (the derogatory term) "Global South" becomes the third player.
Aha, a new state/union can let people buy wine, meat, bread, etc in grocery bags..
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purerogue3
Known Hero
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posted March 17, 2025 06:19 PM |
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Ghost said:
Aha, a new state/union can let people buy wine, meat, bread, etc in grocery bags..
No, you can never have your plastic bags if you want unity.
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted March 17, 2025 06:28 PM |
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 17, 2025 07:21 PM |
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I have no idea why some people feel inclined to become polemic. I didn't say anything about PRESSURING countries to do something. I said, that Russia will be screwed when the oil prices drop - and if that happened it would help bring Russia to the negotiation table - it doesn't help to weaken Ukraine first, that WON'T bring Russia to the table.
And I suggested to offer the OPEC to work for a gaza solution, giving Palestinians their own state. Peace in the region would be in the interest of everyone, obviously. At least of every reasonable party.
Instead the USA are in fact pressuring Ukraine. They are pressuring Canada. They are threatening to take Greenland by force if they don't become it peacefully - Greenland is still Danish and Denmark is still part of NATO. They are pressuring and threatening Mexico, China and the EU. Free speech isn't existing anymore in the US, and signatures and treaties the US signed are worth zilch.
The US have become unreliable in every sense of the word. In just two months.
It won't help to throw Ukraine to the lions. Russia will never ally with the US against China.
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted March 17, 2025 07:34 PM |
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First bomb to the US.. Remember Japan in WW2.. No idea thus Trump thinks money..
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Blizzard
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Urban Legend
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posted March 17, 2025 07:52 PM |
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Edited by Blizzard at 20:03, 17 Mar 2025.
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US Politics 2024-2026. Go there to talk about non-Ukraine things with Trump.
I'm also not sure why Palestine is in this. OPEC have been recalcitrant about arbitrating an independent Gaza state because Gaza has strong links with Iran, and also because just in general there is a rationally low level of confidence in an indepedent Gaza solving the fighting between it and Israel. Support for OPEC arbitrating an indepedent Gaza has been around for a long time. It has never materialized. Egypt also shows zero interest in being responsible for adminstrating Gaza. I don't blame them.
The US has to strong arm who it is capable of strong arming to reach a peace settlement. It can't do that with Russia. Russia is entrenched in eastern Ukraine and it has plenty of options to keep its supply chains open. Gas prices probably aren't going to plummet without a global recession.
The US can strong arm Ukraine, which hasn't had an election for years and which can't perform militarily like it should without sustained US support.
You have this idea that the main guilty party and the aggressor is the one who needs to be punished and who needs to be dealt with severely. That is not constructive. It isn't how things work and it isn't what saves lives either.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted March 17, 2025 08:05 PM |
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The main guilty has won on the ground. And it wasn't like Gaza, low level trained lunatics on motocross against best army in the world, it was Russia vs 41 of most rich countries military resources + a formidable and motivated Ukrainian army, trained and supplied by the West since 2014.
The question is to what point the West will leave them be exterminated just for ego purposes. And remember, in 2022 it was the West who pressed Zelensky to never negotiate and step away from a nearly signed peace, as military victory over Russia was predicted crystal clear.
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purerogue3
Known Hero
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posted March 17, 2025 08:06 PM |
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Blizzard said:
You have this idea that the main guilty party and the aggressor is the one who needs to be punished and who needs to be dealt with severely. That is not constructive.
Equal treatment can't exist in reality
If you have too kids fighting, an elder boy and younger girls (works in other combinations with the same logic) the method of fighting acceptable for each is different, dependent on order and sex.
Older children should know not to physically hurt younger ones, and girls would be ill-served (unfortunately this forgetten) to use force as a first measure.
The revelence with Ukraine is that Z /Ukr was bullying russian-language/cultured population - hence claims of soVeReN nation afterwards is stupidity, the equivalent of the boy hitting the girl after endless taunts.
Much of the discussion /difference between viewpoints on the issue is this difference in male/female understanding on the difference between force and non-force aggression.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
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posted March 17, 2025 08:18 PM |
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Guys, you have a short memory:
It was trump HIMSELF who said the war would end soon, if the oil prices went down and he wanted to work on OPEC to make that happen.
Not two months ago he said that.
It also wouldn't be the first time that there were differences over the oil price between Russia and Saudis.
And on another note I just read an interview with Olivier Mannoni who newly translated Hitler's "Mein Kampf" into French and wrote a book about that chore, saying that Trump's language was very reminiscent of Hitler's...
Blizzard said:
You have this idea that the main guilty party and the aggressor is the one who needs to be punished and who needs to be dealt with severely. That is not constructive. It isn't how things work and it isn't what saves lives either.
Not at all, that's just you making silly assumptions.
Instead I have this idea that those nations who live with certain rules and values should stand together and so their utmost to discourage bullies from forcing their will onto weaker nations. Because as everyone knows, you cannot appease bullies; appeasement will only whet their appetite.
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Salamandre
Admirable
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Wog refugee
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posted March 17, 2025 08:31 PM |
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Our values are fluctuating, Bush and Netanyahou are still roaming around without harm.
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purerogue3
Known Hero
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posted March 17, 2025 08:41 PM |
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Salamandre said:
Our values are fluctuating, Bush and Netanyahou are still roaming around without harm.
Heroes of convenience are infamous eternally
because truth is inconvenient (Al Gore)
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Blizzard
Known Hero
Urban Legend
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posted March 17, 2025 09:29 PM |
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Edited by Blizzard at 21:42, 17 Mar 2025.
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jollyjoker said:
And on another note I just read an interview with Olivier Mannoni who newly translated Hitler's "Mein Kampf" into French and wrote a book about that chore, saying that Hitler's language was very reminiscent of Hitler's...
Yes, Hitler's language does remind me a lot of Hitler.
Quote:
Instead I have this idea that those nations who live with certain rules and values should stand together and so their utmost to discourage bullies from forcing their will onto weaker nations. Because as everyone knows, you cannot appease bullies; appeasement will only whet their appetite.
And it is pretty clear that those shared values no longer exist, if they ever did, because I have no interest hopping onto your paternalistic diplomacy and neither do many others. Making deals with non-Western countries can work.
Because you can in fact "appease a bully" (I don't agree with that polemic) sometimes. Schools have figured this out and it has helped with bullying. Nations have also figures this out, because when you talk to a bully, most of the time you figure out that they're not a sociopath or a psychopath. Occasionally, yes.
We are never going to agree because you've allowed yourself to be convinced that Putin's aim on Ukraine is to take everything. Since we don't agree on that basic point, we aren't going to agree on how to settle for peace.
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purerogue3
Known Hero
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posted March 17, 2025 09:41 PM |
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Blizzard said:
We are never going to agree because you've allowed yourself to be convinced that Putin's aim on Ukraine is to take everything. Since we don't agree on that basic point, we aren't going to agree on how to settle for peace.
He's just taking the easy line because that is what the majority in his country say.
He doesn't actually 'believe' in anything, other than people are easily manipulated and are cowards in the social context.
So he's not actually arguing anything, he's just saying 'this is what is socially acceptable to say'
But he doens't even say that, which is maddening because you have to fill in the blanks.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 18, 2025 10:58 AM |
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Blizzard said:
jollyjoker said:
We are never going to agree because you've allowed yourself to be convinced that Putin's aim on Ukraine is to take everything. Since we don't agree on that basic point, we aren't going to agree on how to settle for peace.
We are never going to agree because you want to believe that peace in a real sense is even possible.
The declared goal of Putin is the destruction of Ukraine as we know it - to continue what has been done since the end of the 18. century. Destroying everything "Ukrainian" and replace it with "Russian". Language, culture, intellectuals, history.
Do you REALLY think, that the guy who is at war now with Ukraine for 11 years and 3 years ago decided to go for it in earnest, to solve the problem once and for all, will stop at anything now, that his country is on war economy and has made serious sacrifices? Needed the help of the Iran, China, North Korea? When Ukraine would long be part of Russia, if the West hadn't pumped a trillion in stuff into the country? And that AFTER that, after whatever "peace" may be reached things will be okay in the region, in Europe? Things will switch back to normal?
You'd be better off believing in the tooth fairy than that.
Russia will stop the war only, if peace will gain them more than continued war, and the more unwilling the West is to continue, the more Russia is to gain with continuing the war, that's actually rather easy to see. Only with a dire perspective peace instead of further war would have looked attractive.
The bottom line is, as long as Russian troops are gaining ground there won't be any earnest peace talks - if Ukrainians can't put up any resistance anymore, the front will collapse and that was it then.
However, Trump has made it clear that the USA at least won't support Ukraine anymore, handing Putin everything he needs to end the conflict the way he wants. He has no reason whatsoever to not demand the utter maximum. And that maximum not only won't leave much of Ukraine, whatever is left will be easy to swallow as well - much like Gaza.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted March 18, 2025 11:18 AM |
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Lol, JJ, I dont know if this is a German thing but you seem to have a LOT of Hitler analogies going on here. On one hand, you liken Putin’s methods to Hitler, on the other hand, you underline Trump’s language is a lot like Hitler’s, so what is it that you’re exactly suggesting here, that the stronger Hitler should bully the weaker Hitler into reestablishing world order? Doesnt seem like a very stable plan!
Btw, I see that a lot has been said to comment on since I last checked in but about your first comment, how it is about people (leaders), not countries; I never underestimate who’s in charge as a factor but the country (macro, long-term state policies, geography, social infrastructure etc) makes the leader, more than the leader makes the country. Here’s one with Hitler from me; in 1918, a French general famously said “this is not peace, this is a 20 year armistice.” This was before the Nazis even existed as a movement of street thugs. Sure, it would have been a very different WW2 and a very different Germany without the character of Hitler. But the main torrent is seldomly directed by just that one person at the top.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
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posted March 18, 2025 12:02 PM |
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The language analogy isn't mine, mind you.
I don't think you can look past the fact that the US under Trump are a different proposition from the US under Biden - and Trump's not even 2 months in office.
The question was, what I'd do if I was in Trump's place, and I answered what Trump said himself, 2 months ago, the others here not realizing that.
The difference is, HE obviously wasn't serious with what he said then - or has no intention to make things difficult for Russia.
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Salamandre
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Wog refugee
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posted March 18, 2025 01:18 PM |
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Somehow Trump is now guilty for Russia's victory and negotiations matching the military situation on ground.
Come on, EU was the most vocal and sectarian since the beginning, no talk, no peace, go for Russia throat. EU is 500 millions, Russia is 140. We can't fulfill our wishes without America's support ? Then why all this noise, shut up, listen to Putin, discuss, negotiate, propose, make compromises, ask for compromises and so on.
The burden of the defeat is on us, not on Trump. He was smart here. There is this nonsense running around that Trump gives to Putin everything that he wants. Correction : Putin HAS already all he wanted. Think about.
Why Trump is Willing to Give So Much to Putin, US ambassador Chas Freeman
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