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| Thread: "Worse than 9/11" |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 · NEXT» |
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Lews_Therin
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posted May 19, 2004 06:13 PM |
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The catholic archbishop Giovanni Lajolo has recently called the prisoner abuse cases in the Iraq a "more serious blow to the United States than September 11".
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2004-05-12-vatican-iraqi-abuse_x.htm
Those who occasionally read in the Other Side part of this board probably know that I have not much love for the catholic church and its representatives. I also feel that this is a bit like comparing apples and oranges. Still I agree with the man, that the seriousness of those torture pictures and their possible consequences can hardly be overestimated.
Since the day when those photos appeared in the media for the first time, Iīve been expecting that someone would open a thread on this subject. Neither did this happen, nor did it find much concern in the Iraq thread. So Iīm starting this as a topic here, because Iīd like to hear what others, especially those who are US Americans, think about the abovementioned interview, and about the torture cases in general.
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2XtremeToTake
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted May 19, 2004 07:10 PM |
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It wasnt torture. It was humiliation.
Ths dictionary defines Torture as
1 AGONY b : something that causes agony or pain
2 : the infliction of intense pain (as from burning, crushing, or wounding) to punish, coerce, or afford sadistic pleasure
None of that was done to the prisoners. They were severely humilated.
Humilation-
1 a : to lower in grade, rank, or status : DEMOTE b : to strip of rank or honors c : to lower to an inferior or less effective level d : to scale down in desirability or salability
2 a : to bring to low esteem or into disrepute b : to drag down in moral or intellectual character : CORRUPT
TY very much, GG
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I almost had a psychic girlfriend but she left me before we met.
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Celfious
Promising
Legendary Hero
From earth
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posted May 19, 2004 07:40 PM |
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Welll it is much easier for us to send inspectors in to inspect ourselves and our own administrations, compared to after those sick people killed many innocents.
I dont see those sick ****s being investigated by their people you know? The military isnt all like this! My chain of command would'tve done that and if they did there were so many of us who would've made the right decision and NARKED.
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted May 19, 2004 07:52 PM |
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Edited By: Consis on 19 May 2004
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We Do Our Best
As an american I can name off several extremist groups in the united states that we must constantly keep in check. The people who support these kinds of ideas are constantly pushing the law at it's line. KKK, Neo Nazis, Black Panthers, etc, are just a few of the kinds of trouble-causing groups with extremist views. That is not even mentioning the christian side of the spectrum such as the presbyterian-extremist abortion clinic bombers.
People from these organizations are not prohibited from enlisting in the armed forces. The ideas these sorts of people have can never be completely erased no matter how many you punish. Because of this, it is commonly found that some of these individuals enlist in the military for reasons similar to non-extremists. On the other hand certain groups like the Neo Nazis actually encourage their members to enlist for the kind of war-training needed to usher in their enlightened age of the Supreme White Aryan nation.
And then there are some people with a very twisted sense of humor. After looking at the photos the american soldiers appear to be having a "hoot & hollerin" time. They look to be amusing themselves with some very sick and twisted humor. However, what they consider to be funny, the rest of the world does not. These kinds of people live in their own little world of "who cares what everyone else thinks".
And just like every other country in the world ours is no different with our own set of unruly sorts of criminals who do it all for a "few laughs".
That's all I see this as. This is a bunch of hoodlums doing what they've probably been getting away with at some other military base or back in their hometown. Things like this aren't sporadic in my opinion. Behavior of this nature is progressive and most likely is not the first time they've behaved this way. I wouldn't be surprised to hear that when they were in highschool they probably treated lower classmen in much the same manner. It all seems so "hazing" to me. It's childish, disrespectful, unlawful, and these idiots will pay for their crimes in the fastest set of courts this nation has. A military courtsmartial is rarely, if ever, lost. The defendants are usually already condemned before the hearing ever even takes place. It's a simple fact of life in the military. That's why, by law, no soldier has the right to sue the branch of service they serve in. Military life is for a strictly disciplined soldier who represents his/her country when sent abroad to the many foreign regions of the world.
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Roses Are Red And So Am I
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Wiseman
Known Hero
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posted May 19, 2004 08:03 PM |
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Quote:
Ths dictionary defines Torture as
1 AGONY b : something that causes agony or pain
2 : the infliction of intense pain (as from burning, crushing, or wounding) to punish, coerce, or afford sadistic pleasure
Dictionary also says:
agony
noun [C or U]
extreme physical or mental pain or suffering.
Extreme humiliation is a mental pain.
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Celfious
Promising
Legendary Hero
From earth
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posted May 19, 2004 08:58 PM |
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a blind shot into space
if marines were in this situation, they would have fought them. Although, if marines WERE in this situation the IRAQIS might not have GIVEN A ****.
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Lews_Therin
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted May 19, 2004 11:18 PM |
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Hello Consis,
thank you for your response. You say that itīs been a number of singular cases discrediting the reputation of an otherwise well-disciplined army. Thatīs been my first thought when I saw the pictures, too. But shortly after they were published, a US military official stated that from now on, coercive techniques (and a few others that I donīt remember right now) like sleep deprivation would not be used anymore. In other words, he admitted that what is defined as torture according to the Geneva Convention, had been explicitly authorized by higher levels.
The kind of sexual abuse thatīs been practiced by Lynndie England may or may not be an exception. I find the second much more plausible, because I would assume that by far the majority of torture acts is not documented with a digi-cam. I also find it hard to imagine them happening behind the back of the other soldiers who run the prison.
In any case, there canīt be much doubt that politics have at the very least created a climate for these atrocities. The Bush administration has on many occasions shown contempt for the concept of international right - think of the prisonersī camp at Guantanamo Bay, where the inhabitants are held under the most miserable conditions and in a completely rightless state. Think of the USī refusal to accept an international court.
For those who are apparently not informed about whatīs been done in the name of our western democracies, Iīd like to recommend this Amnesty International report on the subject.
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Celfious
Promising
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From earth
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posted May 19, 2004 11:20 PM |
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That sucks were not gonna use sleep deprivation for interogative procedures.
Thats an unnaceptable result of the MISTREATMent of the procedure.
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted May 20, 2004 01:07 AM |
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Edited By: Consis on 19 May 2004
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Lews_Therin,
You are, ofcourse, the voice of reason. In a synopsis such as our debate we find ourselves looking at an issue from an outsider's perspective. Indeed constant public scrutiny is the only way to keep such powerful organizations as the military in check. People who control the use of soldiers wielding weapons capable of massive destruction cannot be allowed to govern themselves under any circumstances. That is my opinion.
I believe my own country's military is an organization of said strength, accessibility, and manpower. Because of this, it must be kept in check by our politicians, citizens, and United Nations representatives. If our military were to ever decide that they wanted a coup de etat then it would not be difficult. Then it would be up to the rest of the world to put an end to such an effective disastrous force much in the way the world ended Hitler's Nazi Germany.
Because I know this it is imperative that you, others, and myself maintain a constant state of awareness over this country's military behavior or a lack thereof.
This behavior that you speak of was not only in fact but also experienced by myself. I was in the airforce and I can tell you from experience that the pictures I released are very similar to what we called "hellnight". Getting naked, huddling together, and being hosed down with a high power fire-hose in January were some of the things I experienced. This was performed on myself and my teammates as a way to test our ability to perform under pressure. After all of that I was sent to a survival school in Washington state at a Spokane(city) airforce base called Fairchild where they performed all sorts of torture techniques on us. This was to prepare us if we were ever caught while stranded in enemy lands. The techniques they used are exactly what I saw in these pictures. It truly amazes me that Rumsfeld would say all these things about "Had I known, then I would have done something". It doesn't really matter what I tell you here in this community because the world at large will never care what I say nor will they ever visit these forums. I know from fact and experience that these things you all saw in these pictures were considered to be standard practice until now. What else can I say but that it doesn't matter. Public opinion doesn't believe the truth. This was done to me under justifiable circumstances. The world doesn't care. These idiots were not supposed to be doing this to prisoners even though it might have been performed on them just as it was performed on me.
A normal prisoner interrogation from a u.s. soldier/officer always involves sleep deprivation, food deprivation, and threats. Apparently that's all in the past as of a few weeks ago. I'm so annoyed with the world. What did they think prisoners of war did in jail, sit around and play poker? All of the sudden the world is in an uproar because of the inhumane treatment these prisoners received. What a load of crap to me. I was subjected to this and I was not scarred for life. My honor, beliefs, and strength were left intact because I viewed it as a form of hazing or harassment. Two subjects you would never hear me complain about since it's being done everywhere in the world. Unless it was being done to my children I'd remain silent. I can take punishment both mental and physical. And if you people don't believe me, I have pictures. It doesn't really matter anyway because no one really cares about these damn prisoners being hazed. Both they and myself want our troops out of Iraq and this is a good thing to exploit to further this cause.
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Roses Are RedAnd So Am I
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Dingo
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God of Dark SPAM
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posted May 20, 2004 01:19 AM |
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I don't think this is worst than 911.
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The Above Post/Thread/Idea Is CopyRighted by, The Dingo Corp.
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Celfious
Promising
Legendary Hero
From earth
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posted May 20, 2004 01:29 AM |
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Oh well fricking geeze man, we cant interogate usama without giving him milk and cookies anymore
lool
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Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted May 20, 2004 01:41 AM |
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Mind if I join?
Consis, first, there's a base difference between what you've experienced in your training process and what these prisoners are experiencing.
You volounteerly agreed to be subjegated to such treatment, all in the benefit of your future skill and stamina. These Iraqi prisoners didn't volounteerly agree to such treatment, and they are not exercising for military careers.
What your training involved were the simulations of the most severe circumstances you might encounter, should you fall in the enemy's hands. The US treatment of prisoners is just that - the most severe one.
While I'd certainly not say that Iraqi guerillas would be more hospitable to catpured Americans, the point is that you, USA, want to prove that you are better, you represent hope and justice. From what we can see, there's an unjustified invasion of a country, an occupation and ruthless treatment of prisoners. For god's sake, Consis, it looks like Nazi Germany invaded in Iraq!
The problem is that this isn't an isolated example. These things have been happening at large (just imagine the undocumented cases! what were the chances of us getting that tape? 1 in ten thousand.). There have been statements made from soldiers who said that this was a common thing in prison camps. Meaning the highest officials must have known about this.
Another alarming thing would be the fact that even 90% of the prisoners are innocent, according to the Red Cross. Nobody took them for serious when they said about the conditions in the prisons, but it turned out they were right.
The status quo in Guantanamo is a unique example in history and an excellent example of breaking basic human rights. (and yes, prisoners are humans.)
All these thing show that we're not dealing with a democratic superpower fighting for peace and justice, but an oppressor and invader of other countries, having no respect for internationally accepted standards (meaning having in mind only their own interests)
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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Lews_Therin
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted May 20, 2004 04:35 AM |
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Quote:
Mind if I join?
Quite the contrary  , you saved me alot of writing work, and I donīt know if I would have expressed my point as well as you did.
A few more things that Iīd like to add. Consis, you wrote:"A normal prisoner interrogation from a u.s. soldier/officer always involves sleep deprivation, food deprivation, and threats."
You are aware that what you say translates into:"A normal prisoner interrogation from a u.s. soldier/officer always involves torture."
If what you say is true, and this has become standard, then the terrorists have won this "war" already. Arenīt you aware that by completely ignoring the Geneva Convention, the US loses all of its moral and cultural advantage, that it has (or had) in the eyes of the rest of the world, as well as in the eyes of the average undecided Iraqui citizen? Do you think that the few informations that can be beaten out of those prisoners who are guilty are worth the loss of legitimation, and the loss of credibility?
And please take a look at the Amnesty International report. Firstly, the tortured prisoners are not all "of war", many are suspects with a very good chance to be completely innocent. Secondly, they have, among other things, also had dogs set on their defenseless bodies, and blocks of ice put on them. Are those part of your standard interrogation techniques, or part of your worst case preparation, too? And thirdly, prisoners have died during the tortures. The last time I heard, the media spoke of "at least four cases", but as those four had initially been labeled as natural deaths, the estimated number must be considerably higher.
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Shirastro
Famous Hero
Happy happy joy joy
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posted May 20, 2004 06:55 AM |
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Yeah but you forgot that US gives no crap for the international laws.
Take the kyoto deal (sorry can remember the true name) about ecology for example.
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And now to the next post.
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bjorn190
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jebus maker
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posted May 20, 2004 07:23 PM |
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Yeah but you forgot that US gives no crap for the international laws.
Take the kyoto deal (sorry can remember the true name) about ecology for example.
The USA is a good country, but there is room for improvement. It's up to the people to make that improvement. In a democracy
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted May 20, 2004 07:34 PM |
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Edited By: Consis on 20 May 2004
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Lews_Therin,
Quote:
"A normal prisoner interrogation from a u.s. soldier/officer always involves sleep deprivation, food deprivation, and threats."
You are aware that what you say translates into:"A normal prisoner interrogation from a u.s. soldier/officer always involves torture."
It's good that we both seek answers to facts like these. I am aware and I do agree that this is a form of torture. But I ask you, if someone goes to war with your country, holds a rifle that they use to kill six or seven of your own soldiers, and then is captured, what do you do with him? Do you simply throw him in one of your jails and leave him there? What if the person you captured was of very high military rank and he has information that could give your country an advantage that would help win the war more quickly? He will ofcourse not cooperate with you if you ask him nicely. What will you do? Questions like these fall under the sorts of issues that the Geneva conventions and others like it were held to address. In war both sides want to win and both would do almost anything to save the lives of their own people. If you had a prisoner that was a general for the other side would you not question him for what he knows? This is all very different from a policeman questioning a suspected criminal. The criminal was already a citizen of your country in most cases whereas a prisoner of war is someone of foreign citizenry who has pledged by oath of his own country to kill the people of yours. When a person takes an oath you will find it to be a very solid commitment. That is why they cannot simply be classified as a prisoner or criminal. They are classified as enemy combatants. This is a good name to describe the kind of person who has sworn to kill the people of your country.
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If what you say is true, and this has become standard, then the terrorists have won this "war" already. Arenīt you aware that by completely ignoring the Geneva Convention, the US loses all of its moral and cultural advantage, that it has (or had) in the eyes of the rest of the world, as well as in the eyes of the average undecided Iraqui citizen?
Please, where do you see the violation of the geneva convention by interrogating prisoners of war? Each country has the right do such. Interrogation is not what is under investigation here. It is very specifically the nature of the interrogation. You are correct that the word torture is used as being a violation of the geneva convention but this word can mean anything. You must please be more specific.
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Do you think that the few informations that can be beaten out of those prisoners who are guilty are worth the loss of legitimation, and the loss of credibility?
Once again I respond with a dependance on the nature of the war and the nature of the information being extracted.
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And please take a look at the Amnesty International report. Firstly, the tortured prisoners are not all "of war", many are suspects with a very good chance to be completely innocent. Secondly, they have, among other things, also had dogs set on their defenseless bodies, and blocks of ice put on them. Are those part of your standard interrogation techniques, or part of your worst case preparation, too?
I will go back and read it. That would be classified as a geneva violation.
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And thirdly, prisoners have died during the tortures. The last time I heard, the media spoke of "at least four cases", but as those four had initially been labeled as natural deaths, the estimated number must be considerably higher.
This is being investigated. If a prisoner died as a result of their treatment then we are held accountable by the geneva convention. If this is not the case then it is dismissable.
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Roses Are RedAnd So Am I
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Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted May 20, 2004 08:59 PM |
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Quote:
But I ask you, if someone goes to war with your country, holds a rifle that they use to kill six or seven of your own soldiers, and then is captured, what do you do with him? Do you simply throw him in one of your jails and leave him there?
Hell no! That would be too brutal. You just undress them, pile them up in one place like tunas, force them to listen to Eminem, let your dogs "play" with them, scare them with your gun, beat the sh!t out of them, and in the end when they unexpectedly die, you take photos of yourself and your fellow soldiers next to the bodies, so that you can show off how lovely smile you've got.
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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Laelth
Famous Hero
Laelth rhymes with stealth.
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posted May 20, 2004 09:19 PM |
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Edited By: Laelth on 20 May 2004
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As a conscientious American, I refuse to bury my head in either the sand or the flag. What we did to the Iraqi prisoners was quite obviously torture, and it takes some heavy-duty denial or blind patriotism to call it anything else. And I don't believe for a second that high-level members of the Bush administration didn't know what was happening. They either encouraged the torture or, at the very least, refused to stop it. I am personally embarrased for my country (the current adminstration embarrases me on a regular basis). We owe our allies, the UK in particular, a big apology for putting them in the untenable position of having to defend our indefensible behavior. Suffice it to say that there are many of us in the US who feel this way.
With deep regret,
-Laelth
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Alan P. Taylor, Attorney at Law, LLC
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hamsi128
Promising
Supreme Hero
tosser tavern owner
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posted May 20, 2004 09:56 PM |
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i waited too for some people to open such a thread... ofcourse i never expected it from us citizens.. such a horrible methods in prison , torture and other barbarism lower USA valor in humanity eyes...
After invasion arabes rage incresed, now these tortures gives the fanatics the reason to convert people against usa ... unfortunately because of some barbars all of usa citizens are labelled in the eyes of 10 years old arabian kids...
there is only one way to stop all of this rage , revenge and terror.... the solution depends on usa politics... stop bush .. quit iraq ... shut up and wait that time cures all of these politic mistakes... i even heard that in olimpic games in athene its forbidden(usa governement ordered) to american atletes to run with usa flag after a victory... they fear of protests in athene... fear is the essence of terror and day by day you lose to terror... so i hope mr. consis and other intelligent citizens of usa stop bush in next election..
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quoting my post = bullet in your head
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Celfious
Promising
Legendary Hero
From earth
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posted May 20, 2004 10:03 PM |
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we cannot stop with the serious risk of death present. But I'm glad people like you know all the solutions.
The bottom line here, is it was simply a corrupt group, and all the 10 year old kids who see this may have not givin a rats *** if their fathers did it to US soldiers.
aslong as I get a crib, a job, and a wife and family with peacful death, the only thing I have to worry about is this fragile earths future.. Thanks to the likes of TERRORISTS, politics (old men speaking young men living under their words) and ignorance.
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and it takes some heavy-duty denial or blind patriotism to call it anything else.
Your forgetting a hitler mentality which I am prety sure is MUCH less existant in amaricans than people who live in and deny america (anti americans), and middle easterns who agree with what happened on 9/11, and whoever else can biasly forsake an entire race or country due to their own stupidity and they will be awakened upon death unless death is truly the end of men.
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