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angelito
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posted April 10, 2008 09:31 PM |
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The japanese civilists were innocent too.
We already had a similar discussion....You can not blame a whole nation for the fault of their leaders / government.
So what he says was:
If killing 100.000 innocent japanese saved 1 american life, it was worth those innocent 100.000 japanese died.
And this just doesn't seem acceptable.
And btw....including those who died from cancer due to the radioactivity, the bomb on Hiroshima killed around 240.000 people, 98% of the whole inhabitants of Hiroshima.
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violent_flower
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posted April 10, 2008 09:44 PM |
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Ok but that has to do with innocent lives and not race. He sees it as though we were innocent going into it and they got the ball rolling. So it still has nothing to do with race. If it would have been California against North Dakota would that have to do with race because there are more Mexicans living in Cali then in ND? NO!
I stand by my definition of racism and it should be noted is all I’m saying.
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Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted April 10, 2008 10:26 PM |
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It took long enough for someone to FINALY put my two statements together, thereby putting the whole thing in context.
In this debate about dropping the bomb, everyone always talks about the "innocent" Japanese. Of course they are innocent. I repeat, of course they are innocent.
But why does everyone forget about the innocent Americans or the innocent Australians, or the innocent Chinese, or the innocent Brits, or the innocent New Zealanders, or the innocent Philippinos? What about all the other innocent people who were victims of aggression? Millions of innocent lives were lost.
An invasion of Japan would have cost the lives of hundreds of thousands more innocent people. Maybe millions of people.
If the Japanese who lost their lives were innocent, does that mean the hundreds of thousands of Americans or Australians, or New Zealanders are what? Does it mean they are NOT innocent? Just because someone was in the military, does that make them "not innocent"? All these "non-innocent" people had mothers and fathers, and brothers and sisters, and wives and children. All these "non-innocent" people had lives, they had jobs, and all they wanted to do was go on with their lives in peace. But things didn't work out that way. They suddenly became "non-innocent" through none of their own fault. Do I understand this side of the argument correctly, that all these people are "non-innocent"?
Well, I disagree. I say they are all innocent. The Japanese people are innocent, the Chinese people are innocent, and the Philippino people are innocent.
So now it's time to choose. Many thousands of innocent people WILL die, that's a fact. You must make a choice. Which innocent people must die? Which nation must bear this terrible burden?
A) Innocent people from the nation who was the aggressor
B) Innocent people from the countries who were the victims
Now choose.
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violent_flower
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posted April 10, 2008 10:28 PM |
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Well **** I got it...
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The_Gootch
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Kneel Before Me Sons of HC!!
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posted April 10, 2008 10:36 PM |
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240,000 vs. 10s of millions? Hmm, given that choice let me take 240,000.
The hell is wrong with you people? Do you really think Japan was on the verge of surrender? The firebombing of Tokyo showed that conventional bombing was not going to break the will of the people. Actually, conventional bombing traditionally has not broken the will of the bombed until the last ten years.
So yes, nuclear fallout had devastating long term effects. Do you expect an apology for American use of a nuclear bomb? Again, let's go with raw numbers. 240,000 with the U.S. going nuclear versus 10s of millions of Japanese and over 1 million Americans with a land invasion.
And as for HoMam, you know, you're a perfect example of Euros having something interesting to say only when they're ripping on Americans. Here's a gem. Pay attention kiddies. I don't like to have to do this more than twice a year.
Quote:
But neither do you personally invade so many other countries.You didn't invade in Korea, you didn't invade in Vietnam, you didn't invade in Serbia, you didn't invade in Iraq(2 times) you didn't invade to Afghanistan you didn't invade to..etc.It wasn't your choice and i believe it of course you didn't want this wars, many of them your country started.
It is accepted in international circles that there are 3 legal reasons for attacking another nation. One is for self-defense. The second is for humanitarian reasons. And the third is with a United Nations Security Council Resolution.
So let's take another look at what HoMaM had to say.
Korea. Humanitarian.
Vietnam. Self-defense technically with the Gulf of Tonkin incident.
Serbia. Humanitarian.
Iraq (Desert Storm). Humanitarian AND a UNSCR
Afghanistan. Self-Defense. Paging Al-Qaeda!
Iraq #2. Uh, none of the above. Preemptive attack by all rights is illegal and those responsible should be held accountable. May the Bush administration be shipped to Nuremberg.
So, out of the six wars you mentioned HoMoaM, the U.S. started one. But you said many. I suppose I should pretend to be confused. But I'm not. Go eat an olive.
And Angelito, I strongly disagree about Binabik's statement being racist(not sure if you wanted to be corrected on racistic but there it is). We have a markedly different view than the rest of you about the use of the nuclear bombs that ended World War II. But that doesn't make us racist. It doesn't make us insulting. And his comment sure as hell isn't worty of a -qp.
Edit: Removed the obtuse comment. Seems fair as Angelito is trying to just act in an official capacity.
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angelito
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posted April 10, 2008 11:03 PM |
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Edited by angelito at 23:05, 10 Apr 2008.
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@ The_Gootch
Not sure who is obtuse here, but I will tell ya the difference of what YOU say and what Binabik said:
You say: "The bomb saved many lives...on japanese site and on american site"
Binabik said: "If the bomb saved at least ONE AMERICAN LIFE, it was ok".
And in my eyes, and when I look at the reaction of some other members, there seems to be a big difference.
Just to clarify: I think the same way as you refering to this bomb dropping. Maybe Binabik too, but the way he expressed it, many (inlcuding me) could have a different idea about his motivation...
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violent_flower
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posted April 10, 2008 11:05 PM |
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I rest my case.... Now when will this -QP be pulled and put in the lap of someone who acually deserves it? Or do we need to go to the big dog and have him piddle his time away reviewing the obvious?
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violent_flower
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posted April 10, 2008 11:07 PM |
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His intentions? Now we are going by what ones intentions may be and guessing as to what direction they "could" go with something. Come on!
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angelito
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posted April 10, 2008 11:10 PM |
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as I said: "...the way he expressed it....".
If he would have written something similar as T_G did, I am pretty sure nothing would have happened.
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violent_flower
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posted April 10, 2008 11:17 PM |
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This is no time for ass kissing. Gootches way was just put so you would understand what BINK was expressing. 
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The_Gootch
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posted April 10, 2008 11:17 PM |
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I see a bit of hypersensitivity going on here. Binabik is a longstanding member and does not have a history of saying provocative and inflammatory stuff. Like most of the older members, he brings maturity and perspective to his arguments when he decides to post.
In light of what he has just said, and how he has defended his post and explained his position, I don't see justification for the -qp.
What I do see, and I'm keenly aware of this, is the frustration of the world at large with the U.S. and Americans. We are seen as stupid and arrogant, completely unfit for the blessing of wealth and natural resources we have been bestowed with. And our foreign policy does not do much to dispel that stereotype. No, this administration has really reinforced that view of us, and rightly so.
It is this frustration I think that leads to hypersensitivity when it comes to Americans and their posts. Binabik expressed a strong view and it tweaked others as another example of unchecked American hubris that needed to be deflated a little bit.
Mind you. I'm no friend of his. He's a republican if we should ever meet, I'd spit in his Iced Tea. I swear I would. But that doesn't mean I don't think he's gotten a raw deal here.
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted April 10, 2008 11:22 PM |
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I can't see why it should be removed. 1 white person is not more valuable than hundreds of slave black people, as it was in the 1800´s. One Goodi-Good American is not worth more than 100.000 Oh-so-evil Japanese. At least not for the rest of the world; the Americans obviously beg to differ.
It is a whole different matter whether the bomb saved lives on both sides or not, or if that the casualties would have risen above those who had been killed in the bombs. It is totally different to say that to save 1 life of certain nationality you can bomb 100.000 people of another. They are not less human there, no matter how you want your revenge.
@The_Gootch. You apparently don't know that the Gulf of Tonkin incident was the "weapons of mass destruction" of that era. In other words it never happened. Gulf of Tonkn Incident
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violent_flower
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posted April 10, 2008 11:28 PM |
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* MIN: It is whether or not the comment was racist and nothing more. By definition of racism it was not. And good luck to you and calling Gootch out on what he does and does not know.
 *Picks up a Sam Adams and gets ready to watch this round, covers glass so the ignorant blood of MIN does not get into well deserved beer*
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The_Gootch
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posted April 10, 2008 11:31 PM |
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Quote:
it is a whole different matter whether the bomb saved lives on both sides or not, or if that the casualties would have risen above those who had been killed in the bombs. It is totally different to say that to save 1 life of certain nationality you can bomb 100.000 people of another. They are not less human there, no matter how you want your revenge.
Considering the historical context, his comment was appropriate. Remember, even Commander Adama said, "Context matters."
And thanks for enlightening me about that. I guess I haven't kept up with my Tonkin trivia over the years. And this is a perfect illustration of what has happened to my country when we have have entered conflicts where the cause was not just.
2 out of 6. Less than half. Homam's still wrong.
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted April 10, 2008 11:41 PM |
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Context matters, but to many it was not clear enough. I don't know if it was racist or not. But short, provocative statements get misinterpreted very easily. And provocation is also againt the CoC.
Hmm, but maybe an episode of BG before heading to bed...
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baklava
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posted April 11, 2008 12:03 AM |
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Quote:
2 out of 6.
Well at least someone openly sees wars as a score table.
I know this kid from some screwed up uncivilized country, I think he calls himself Baklava or something, who tends to think that it's just wrong to put the word "humanitarian" in the same sentence as the words "attacking another nation". Hah. Kids today. No idea of civilization, morals or anything.
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is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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The_Gootch
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posted April 11, 2008 04:03 AM |
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There's a reason why legal scholars don't consult sixteen year olds, child. Maturity will be a much more able teacher for you than I ever will be.
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baklava
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posted April 11, 2008 10:54 AM |
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Indeed. Can't wait to grow up and understand the full humanitarian purpose of killing people.
Perhaps all those suicide bombers are actually fanatical humanitarians.
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is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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angelito
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posted April 11, 2008 11:18 AM |
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Quote:
This is no time for ass kissing. Gootches way was just put so you would understand what BINK was expressing.
Maybe u read in the CoC about such things V_F.
Saying "Your post is shi*!" is against the CoC
Saying "What you wrote is not correct" is not.
Both probably wanted to express the same. But the way they did was NOT. Is it really that hard to understand?
And btw...ass-kissing isn't one of my favorite things to do, especially not online.. ...I leave that to people who are closer 
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted April 11, 2008 11:21 AM |
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Quote:
A) Innocent people from the nation who was the aggressor
B) Innocent people from the countries who were the victims
C) Neither.
Quote:
Do you really think Japan was on the verge of surrender?
Given a trade embargo and a naval blockade, yes.
The power of the atom bomb could have been demonstrated in any number of ways without the need of committing one of the greatest atrocities in human history.
At the very least, the second bomb didn't need to be dropped just 3 days later.
"In 1945 Secretary of War Stimson, visiting my headquarters in Germany, informed me that our government was preparing to drop an atomic bomb on Japan. I was one of those who felt that there were a number of cogent reasons to question the wisdom of such an act. During his recitation of the relevant facts, I had been conscious of a feeling of depression and so I voiced to him my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and secondly because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives." -General Dwight D. Eisenhower
"The Japanese had, in fact, already sued for peace. The atomic bomb played no decisive part, from a purely military point of view, in the defeat of Japan." -Fleet Admiral Chester W. Nimitz, Commander in Chief of the U.S. Pacific Fleet
"The use of [the atomic bombs] at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender."- Admiral William D. Leahy, Chief of Staff to President Truman.
"Based on a detailed investigation of all the facts, and supported by the testimony of the surviving Japanese leaders involved, it is the Survey's opinion that certainly prior to 31 December 1945, and in all probability prior to 1 November 1945, Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war, and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated."-United States Strategic Bombing Survey, after interviewing hundreds of Japanese civilian and military leaders after Japan surrendered
Racism does come inherently hand in hand with the atomic bombings, even Presiden Truman stated: "The only language they seem to understand is the one we have been using to bombard them. When you have to deal with a beast you have to treat him like a beast."
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