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mvassilev
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posted June 30, 2009 06:47 PM |
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Quote:
You want your right to discuss things to be protected - but that doesn't mean that you should have the right to post as you will at the expense of any other members.
But if you "protect" them from the debates, then they'd be posting at my expense.
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Eccentric Opinion
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TheDeath
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with serious business
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posted June 30, 2009 06:49 PM |
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JJ that's a good point but I hardly believe anyone would consider Jackson black and even call him a monkey because of that. He was paler than most white people due to surgeries or masks or whatever 
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TheDeath
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with serious business
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posted June 30, 2009 06:53 PM |
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My posts from the MJ thread, which was off topic, so here goes:
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angelito, provocation goes both ways. The REASON mvass even USED Hitler on the first or second page (post deleted so I don't remember) is because people were using the "popularity is good" argument.
But they continue to mention the same things over and over again (popularity). You accused mvass of doing this and even deleted his post. This really goes both ways.
How come mvass provokes others by repeating his opinion when THEY repeat the same popularity argument over and over and they somehow "don't provoke"?
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You now tell me it is a provocation to tell Michael Jackson was popular????
What about saying he was less of an artist than Bach? Actually, Bach could be even more popular, since he's dead for hundreds of years, unlike MJ.
But that's not what I was talking about. I meant that, people used the popularity argument. That's fine, for once, and mvass used his that popularity isn't always good. At this point, it would have ended it. But they use it over and over. That's provocation.
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Discussing MJ's popularity in a thread about his death is as much off-topic as discussing why he wasn't as good as the extreme fanboys make him look like (read: "I can't live without him" and I'm talking about what I see from TV). Saying he didn't die at the peak of his career is also fact, so why be so sorrow over it?
And popularity is hard to measure as a fact. Is Bach more popular? He is still somewhat popular and he died centuries ago, these timelines add up you know.
Therefore saying "If measured by popularity, [Michael Jackson] would be above them" doesn't have much basis for a fact, does it?
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pandora
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Legendary Hero
The Chosen One
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posted June 30, 2009 06:53 PM |
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The media creates a frenzy...its the way of the world now.
Lately I've listened to a lot of his music (because I don't live under a rock, therefore its unavoidable  and it makes me feel pretty nostalgic, remembering a lot of old times 
I think that maybe that's something you guys are missing - you're only thinking about MJ - the music means more than just him to a lot of people. Music ties you to different times in your life, when the artist dies you feel some sadness, even if the music will always go on...
I don't know - for me personally, I'm equally as saddened by reading about anyone who dies young. Death is sad.
When I said that you guys need to learn about respect, I meant in respecting that some people don't always want to debate.
In example, say some kids are playing blocks - and one day they think it'd be funny to play Godzilla and build up towers only to kick them down. But then the next day most of the kids are having fun just building, but some of the others keep kicking their stuff down. The ones building are upset, and they ask that the others just let them build - they don't want to play Godzilla.
There are plenty of other blocks those kids can just go play with, so wouldn't you agree that its fair to ask them to only play the Godzilla game when everyone wants to play - and not just run around ruining other kids' fun? They're more than welcome to get their own blocks and play Godzilla all they like with those...
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"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
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Azagal
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posted June 30, 2009 06:53 PM |
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How are they posting at your expense oO. Jesus 5 People (who you should agree are atleast semi-intelligent) are telling you the same thing don't you think that we have a point oO? Yeah sure quantaty doesn't mean were right blablabla but for heavens sake you're not the missunderstood "warrior" fighting against ignorant people who want to silence/punish you for your views. You're not.
You did something wrong and the reasons have been listed 5 times here in different words (should be very understandable...) how can't you see you were WRONG in doing things the way you did?!
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 30, 2009 06:57 PM |
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From the MJ thread:
Angelito:Quote:
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Let's see. Anyone gives a **** that it's sad that Jackson died because he was in the peak of his career or something? Technically let's say he stopped being a musician. What do you miss? His older albums who he would have released in a few months? Don't you see how stupid this sounds?
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If measured by popularity, he's above them.
It's because you said worthless things like this that mvass had to draw in Hitler in the beginning of this thread.
And it's posts like THIS who will make YOU the next who will get his break. Watch out!
TheDeath:Quote:
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And it's posts like THIS who will make YOU the next who will get his break. Watch out!
What is it now, that we can only post one-side in a thread? Or silence everyone who disagrees about it?
I don't disrespect him, but that doesn't mean I have to say he was the greatest or say his works are more worth -- if anything that shows DISRESPECT because only when he is dead you start to buy off his albums as if they were bad before.
And what JJ said, is wise.
Angelito:Quote:
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What is it now, that we can only post one-side in a thread? Or silence everyone who disagrees about it?
To be honest, sometimes I really doubt your age. Are you so deep "quote war" infected so you can't see obvious things you are doing wrong?
It is NOT about having a different opinion (my god, even my 18 months old daughter recognizes things after I tell her 7 times...), it is about ATTACKING/PROVOKING OTHERS who have a different opinion.
Or what do you call this:
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It's because you said worthless things like this that mvass had to draw in Hitler in the beginning of this thread
Stop calling other posts worthless as long as your posts don't contain anything on topic but smart-*** comments towards others.
Still unclear?
TheDeath:Quote:
angelito, provocation goes both ways. The REASON mvass even USED Hitler on the first or second page (post deleted so I don't remember) is because people were using the "popularity is good" argument.
But they continue to mention the same things over and over again (popularity). You accused mvass of doing this and even deleted his post. This really goes both ways.
How come mvass provokes others by repeating his opinion when THEY repeat the same popularity argument over and over and they somehow "don't provoke"?
Angelito:Quote:
unbeliveable....
You now tell me it is a provocation to tell Michael Jackson was popular????
Please don't feel insulted now, but I REALLY think you need a doctor.....
TheDeath:Quote:
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You now tell me it is a provocation to tell Michael Jackson was popular????
What about saying he was less of an artist than Bach? Actually, Bach could be even more popular, since he's dead for hundreds of years, unlike MJ.
But that's not what I was talking about. I meant that, people used the popularity argument. That's fine, for once, and mvass used his that popularity isn't always good. At this point, it would have ended it. But they use it over and over. That's provocation.
mvassilev:Quote:
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You now tell me it is a provocation to tell Michael Jackson was popular????
It's provocation to repeat the same argument over and over again (that "Michael Jackson was popular = Michael Jackson was good"). And not only that, but you deleted my counterargument.
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Please don't feel insulted now, but I REALLY think you need a doctor.....
If that's not provocation, then nothing is.
Angelito:Quote:
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It's provocation to repeat the same argument over and over again (that "Michael Jackson was popular = Michael Jackson was good"). And not only that, but you deleted my counterargument.
Again wrong. It is NOT a provocation to repeat FACTS, but to post personal opinions which go completely against the idea of a thread and have no other meaning.
Why did you not open a new thread about the quality of Michael Jackson instead of ruining a thread which is about HIS DEATH!!
You see the 2 words which always come along? (ruining threads....)
Think about that please...
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Please don't feel insulted now, but I REALLY think you need a doctor.....
If that's not provocation, then nothing is.
My personal opinion, and I did NOT repeat it 
mvassilev:Quote:
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It is NOT a provocation to repeat FACTS, but to post personal opinions which go completely against the idea of a thread and have no other meaning.
"Popular =/= good" is a fact, and yet you deleted the post in which I pointed that out. And "MJ's music is good" is a personal opinion, and people are posting it over and over.
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I did NOT repeat it
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Are you so deep "quote war" infected
TheDeath:Quote:
Discussing MJ's popularity in a thread about his death is as much off-topic as discussing why he wasn't as good as the extreme fanboys make him look like (read: "I can't live without him" and I'm talking about what I see from TV). Saying he didn't die at the peak of his career is also fact, so why be so sorrow over it?
And popularity is hard to measure as a fact. Is Bach more popular? He is still somewhat popular and he died centuries ago, these timelines add up you know.
Therefore saying "If measured by popularity, [Michael Jackson] would be above them" doesn't have much basis for a fact, does it?
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TheDeath
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posted June 30, 2009 06:57 PM |
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Death, that's simply off the mark: If an icon of his or her time dies, then people will be sad about it, whether that artist hasn't produced something noteworthy the last 10 years or not. The merits they earned in their prime are enough. Think about George Harrison, for example. It's always a loss when an artist dies, whether he was recently productive or not.
Yes it is a loss, but his works don't automatically improve because of it. I didn't see so much hysteria over how good he was or how he topped all other pop stars or whatever until he died, and in the last 10 years he didn't even do much, so if it was so good as they claim NOW, they would have done so in the last 10 years too.
I'm not saying MJ sucked or anything. But why so much hype over him when he wasn't even active that much in the last decade?
Heck I even find it disrespectful that some people only like his music now that he's dead.
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pandora
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The Chosen One
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posted June 30, 2009 07:00 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
You want your right to discuss things to be protected - but that doesn't mean that you should have the right to post as you will at the expense of any other members.
But if you "protect" them from the debates, then they'd be posting at my expense.
Have you ever heard the song that never ends? It just goes on and on my friend
If you honestly don't follow what I'm saying, then there's no point in trying to discuss further.
If you do understand me, then you should also understand that I don't want to play your little game 
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"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 30, 2009 07:04 PM |
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Pan:
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Music ties you to different times in your life, when the artist dies you feel some sadness, even if the music will always go on...
I don't think I'll be sad when any artists from the 90s or 2000s die.
Azagal:
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How are they posting at your expense
Because they're being allowed to post whatever they want, but I'm not being allowed to post what I want.
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how can't you see you were WRONG in doing things the way you did?!
Because I wasn't wrong. It's that simple. The majority isn't always right.
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Eccentric Opinion
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TheDeath
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posted June 30, 2009 07:05 PM |
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Well actually I would be sad if a favorite artist/composer would die, but I won't be irrational to say his/her music improved because of it.
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Salamandre
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posted June 30, 2009 07:12 PM |
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and in the last 10 years he didn't even do much, so if it was so good as they claim NOW, they would have done so in the last 10 years too.
I saw this argument several times in your posts. I don't get the idea: why someone who showed some exceptional qualities/achievements at some moment of his life must be ignored and forgotten as soon as he isn't anymore "productive". Nietzsche and Robert Schumann ended their lives in the worst mental condition possible and after unproductive period but no one thinks to blame that. Sometimes the stress and the nervous impact of a great achievement let that person in a "empty" condition for the rest of her life. He did what his destiny asked him to do. Some may like, others not.
The history does not mention the moment/precise hour when something exceptional was created but gives credit to the author for his whole life.
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Azagal
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Smooth Snake
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posted June 30, 2009 07:13 PM |
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Oh boy... you don't want to understand it do you ?
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Because I wasn't wrong. It's that simple. The majority isn't always right.
Of course you were wrong. You repeatedly posted how abysmal you found Jackson. Saying "I don't like his music" had surved it's purpose don't you think? All the rest of your insults had not purpose for you expressing your opinion. Their purpose was aggrevation (wether you wanted it or not it's what they did). Wait I'm repeating myself...
By saying "5 people" I actually didn't want to go for a majority argument all I wanted to say that the people who give you advice here aren't stupid and if all 5 happen to see the exact same things in your post then MAYBE I'd begin to consider the possibility of being wrong. And you don't. You don't, for a moment, think that you could be wrong, everything Pan, angelito, JJ, others in the Jacko thread and I said obviously doesn't appear to make sense to you.
And it's not "you not being allowed to post what you want" it's "preventing you from destroying a thread". Doesn't anything of this make any sense to you oO?
But yeah it's hopeless... I mean it can't get much clearer than 5 people telling you the exact same thing but yeah you go ahead and be missunderstood .
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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mvassilev
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 30, 2009 07:13 PM |
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Salamandre:
I don't think that's what TheDeath is saying at all. He's saying that their deaths don't make their work any better. He's also saying that it'd be one thing if their major work was cut off by their deaths, but as they weren't working anything major when they died, that wasn't the case.
Azagal:
I only insulted him once, by calling him a monkey. You're acting like I was insulting him left and right. The rest of my posts were dedicated to explaining why his music shouldn't be considered a great cultural achievement.
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You don't, for a moment, think that you could be wrong, everything Pan, angelito, JJ, others in the Jacko thread and I said obviously doesn't appear to make sense to you.
It was six men of Indostan
To learning much inclined,
Who went to see the Elephant
(Though all of them were blind),
That each by observation
Might satisfy his mind
The First approached the Elephant,
And happening to fall
Against his broad and sturdy side,
At once began to bawl:
God bless me! but the Elephant
Is very like a wall!
The Second, feeling of the tusk,
Cried, Ho! what have we here
So very round and smooth and sharp?
To me tis mighty clear
This wonder of an Elephant
Is very like a spear!
The Third approached the animal,
And happening to take
The squirming trunk within his hands,
Thus boldly up and spake:
I see, quoth he, the Elephant
Is very like a snake!
The Fourth reached out an eager hand,
And felt about the knee.
What most this wondrous beast is like
Is mighty plain, quoth he;
'Tis clear enough the Elephant
Is very like a tree!
The Fifth, who chanced to touch the ear,
Said: Even the blindest man
Can tell what this resembles most;
Deny the fact who can
This marvel of an Elephant
Is very like a fan!?
The Sixth no sooner had begun
About the beast to grope,
Than, seizing on the swinging tail
That fell within his scope,
I see, quoth he, the Elephant
Is very like a rope!
And so these men of Indostan
Disputed loud and long,
Each in his own opinion
Exceeding stiff and strong,
Though each was partly in the right,
And all were in the wrong!
Quote:
And it's not "you not being allowed to post what you want" it's "preventing you from destroying a thread". Doesn't anything of this make any sense to you oO?
It's me being prevented from contributing to the thread.
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Salamandre
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Wog refugee
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posted June 30, 2009 07:19 PM |
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Quote:
He's also saying that it'd be one thing if their major work was cut off by their deaths, but as they weren't working anything major when they died, that wasn't the case.
Again a pure "productive" argue, while the whole thing is about fans who were "soul touched" by him at some moment of their life. They just bring him a last homage. No major work in progress, but the regrettable death of a young artist who was able to communicate emotions. Art is about communicating feelings, and you can't cheat on that.
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TheDeath
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posted June 30, 2009 07:21 PM |
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Quote:
I saw this argument several times in your posts. I don't get the idea: why someone who showed some exceptional qualities/achievements at some moment of his life must be ignored and forgotten as soon as he isn't anymore "productive". Nietzsche and Robert Schumann ended their lives in the worst mental condition possible and after unproductive period but no one thinks to blame that. Sometimes the stress and the nervous impact of a great achievement let that person in a "empty" condition for the rest of her life. He did what his destiny asked him to do. Some may like, others not.
The history does not mention the moment/precise hour when something exceptional was created but gives credit to the author for his whole life.
Time for layman terms!
1 minute before Jackson's death went into the press (he could be dead before!): "Michael Jackson? Yeah his music was pretty good, I heard he has some health problems though."
30 seconds after they heard about his death: "OMG!!! Michael Jackson's music is sooooooo good, he was absolute King! The BEST EVAH!!!!"
I wasn't aware that someone can do so much in 1 and a half minute or even less. I mean just look at the difference in praising his work.
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veco
Legendary Hero
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posted June 30, 2009 07:23 PM |
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Az, don't go there, it's not worth it
You and many others said what there was to say about this matter and if Mvass can't listen - that's his loss. A big loss.
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TheDeath
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posted June 30, 2009 07:25 PM |
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No, the 5 people mentioned in Azagal's post should EXPECT a counter-argument, which mvass used. Yet he still uses the argument that was countered -- instead, try to counter the counter-argument. That's how a discussion is kept going, not by saying "5 people disagree with you, you're wrong. That's it, no reason, and anything you say will be ignored."
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Azagal
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Smooth Snake
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posted June 30, 2009 07:27 PM |
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Ok I can do this... one last try:
Quote:
I only insulted him once, by calling him a monkey. You're acting like I was insulting him left and right. The rest of my posts were dedicated to explaining why his music shouldn't be considered a great cultural achievement.
Say what? Do you remember the list of quotes I made where I pointed out how you're insulting him (it's not about insulting Jacko btw it's about you formulating your opinion in manners that have no other way than aggrevating people).
Dude it's 2:24 in the morning don't make me remember stuff at this time oO. Anyways I do recall you saying "his music is garbage and should be in the bin where it belongs." It may not be the exact words (I think you said trash instead of garbage) but I think you remember what I was saying. Now don't you think that's insulting?
And come on don't pretend to be a freakin lamb you did insult him left right, from above, the sides, from down under and from another dimension (slight exaggeration on my part...). I had about 5~ quotes from you where you were nothing but adding to the fire.
And now take me my pillowy fortress take me away~~~~~~
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 30, 2009 07:31 PM |
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I remember some of those quotes. Out of those I can remember, only the monkey one was an insult. The rest weren't. ("I guess his heart just couldn't beat it" is a lighthearted pun, not a provocative statement.)
Quote:
Anyways I do recall you saying "his music is garbage and should be in the bin where it belongs." It may not be the exact words (I think you said trash instead of garbage) but I think you remember what I was saying. Now don't you think that's insulting?
No.
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Eccentric Opinion
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veco
Legendary Hero
who am I?
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posted June 30, 2009 07:46 PM |
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I believe that the arguments "but OSM is for debating", "what about my freedom of speech?" were expected to a point it would a disappointment if they wouldn't appear. I don't want to get involved in a quarell so let me say only this:
If my opinions supported with the glorious freedom of speech was to upset others I would reconsider using it. That's the diplomatic skill and good manners which Mvass either lacks or forgets here on the forums.
Anyway, this is getting out of hand, this is the Feedback thread.
Mvass, you said it yourself that diplomacy is not your strong side.
And the current situation is a direct result of it.
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none of my business.
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