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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Necropolis power deficiency !
Thread: Necropolis power deficiency ! [ This thread is 23 pages long: (1) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 ]
Silverhawk5504
Silverhawk5504


Hired Hero
The Forsaken One
posted April 20, 2006 11:53 AM

Necropolis power deficiency !

I am upset over the blatant lack of power in the Necro castle.  The following points outline my biggest concerns and will hopefully reach the proper eyes and ears:

*Zombies are once again ineffective ... to be point that it would be better if they were not there.  This was a problem in H3 but since the Necros were powerful in other areas no one cared about how awful the zombies were because there weren't used.  I would think that H5 would add something this time around ... maybe even a 1 time effect like the demon's "explosion" ability which would make them be worthwhile.

*Ghosts are a little slow and although their incorporeal ability is fantastic, they rarely get a chance to employ it because by the time they get to the enemy, they're shot down (low initiative).

*Wraiths are a fairly weak lvl 6 unit.  They are not exceptionally fast and have no outstanding abilities.  Their "take life" feature could be good if it was able to kill more units (maybe a certain percentage based on the number of wraiths in your stack like the old mighty gorgons which had 10% chance to kill 1 per gorgon in the stack).  This would be decent and this unit, being as weak as it is, would greatly benefit from having the incorporeal or "no retaliation" ability.  

*Finally the saddest point of all is that the Vampire lords have been reduced to a shell of what they had been before.  No longer can they carry the Necron army on their backs.  If we could just go back to the H3 unit which had speed comperable to the harpy (this would require giving it as high initiative as a blood fury) and which was able to steal a great deal more life then the H5 version that we have seen so far.  Without the vamp lord as the powerhouse, the Necropolis cannot rally behind anything.  With the lvl 7 and lvl 6 being as weak as they are, it is imperative that the Vampire Lord be improved.

I realize that there are other factors that may play into how strong a castle is based on the cost of their units, how many units are generated, and special buildings that might exist, but the picture still looks bleak.  I'm not asking for all the above changes to be made because that would skew the balance and make the Necropolis too powerful to handle (like it was in H3), but atleast some of the changes would be nice to see.  

Should my plea reach the right people, I humbly ask that the proper actions are taken to equalize the castle balance.
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~Dima

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Lord_Woock
Lord_Woock


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Daddy Cool with a $90 smile
posted April 20, 2006 12:17 PM

But still, necro has the cheapest shooter in the game. You can get many many skeleton archers without paying a dime for them, no?

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Silverhawk5504
Silverhawk5504


Hired Hero
The Forsaken One
posted April 20, 2006 12:24 PM

Indeed

You're quite correct in that staement but it take a LOT of those to do any kind of damage and they are killed very easily.  Good for beginning game where you need to capture mines but bad in general ...
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~Dima

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lord_crusader
lord_crusader


Promising
Supreme Hero
UHU!! supreme!
posted April 20, 2006 12:28 PM

believe me necropolis is not weak
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Silverhawk5504
Silverhawk5504


Hired Hero
The Forsaken One
posted April 20, 2006 12:45 PM

Do I smell a challenge...

I don't see how you can back up your statement but i'll go ahead and make it easier for you.  I'm willing to face you and wager that Necropolis will only be effective against Haven.
Here's what would happen in a potential situation:

*Inferno will steal all of your mana with their imps so that you are left with being able to cast 1-2 spells before you run out.  The gating will obviously come into play and you'll find that the Balor's fireball/meteor shower attack is quite powerful (especially when there are twice as many balors with the Archdevils able to summon reinforcements)

*Dungeon will take out the most of the dragons or wraiths with the lizard charge on the first turn, then blast the liches with matriarchs and other shooters...and do a steady stream of Meteor showers to finish off the process.

*Tower will pummel you with enless magical attacks...and will sit pretty with their solid Triple G defense (golem, gargoyle, gremlin).

*Sylvan is not even worth mentioning because this battle would last all of 5 min.  The decay spell would be ineffective as i've mentioned before because it would be resisted and the archers would deal you sweet sweet death.

*The Haven is the castle able to potentialy to the Necros.  The paladin will start out and destroy 1 of your stacks (vamps, wraiths, or dragons).  Then you'll try and kill it, taking out some but the angel will resurrect...and that would be alright except there are also the griffin that enjoy a nice little battle dive on you liches.  All in all it's quite tough to be that sort of line up.


So I've just riffled off a few ways of how Necropolis can be taken down and destroyed.  Believe me that I would be unable to devise any time of similar strategy the other way around.  It is simply too difficult for the Necropolis to win (Too slow...too weak).  

Don't get me wrong, it is my favorite castle (especially in H3) and I will defend and support it when it the final game comes out, but don't argue with me when I say it's too weak.  Because you'll win maybe 1 out of every 10 games.
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~Dima

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Nebuka
Nebuka


Promising
Supreme Hero
Save me Jebus!
posted April 20, 2006 01:14 PM

With hero that has Att. 2 and Def. 6, how can it not suck in duels.

And yawn about them being weak.
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lord_crusader
lord_crusader


Promising
Supreme Hero
UHU!! supreme!
posted April 20, 2006 02:15 PM

I think you are based your opinion on the duel mode... but you must play with necro in a normal map to understand why necro is not weak
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Qualrath
Qualrath


Adventuring Hero
Kokonut's zealot
posted April 20, 2006 03:10 PM

But even if Necro is my favourite town (Yes, Yes, maybe besides Sylvan ), I would say that even in Duel mode you can win with Necro in simple ways. I played duels with Dungeon and Sylvan. Dungeon- I had to quit, but I would won, Sylvan- I lost. Simple.

Dungeon:
For the first, my liches were attacked hard by those witches or sumthin' with two blades, but they survived. After many attacks(OMG, all Dungeon critters attacked me!)there finally was my turn. For the first(I don't remember) I moved with some creatures and attacked thos lisard-something, and then I cats Decay on Matriarchs. Then, Mass Decay, next atacks with Dragons, Surviving next attacks and Meteor Shower. Then some attacks(Wraiths, skeletona Archers, yea) and something that hits only living creatures, Death Ripple or Sumthin. I had no time, so I had to quit, but I could win
Sylvan:
After killing my stack of liches by Elves, my opponent was changing positions of his troops. He used defensive techniqoue. I tried that Death Ripple and Mass Decay, but it did not help at all. And then my brother brutally took control over the computer and lost the battle! But even if he couldn't, I would lose
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I returned in shame...

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Mantra
Mantra


Adventuring Hero
posted April 21, 2006 09:12 AM

Duel is not balanced at the moment. You can not draw any conclusion from there.

But from our regular gameplay, we indeed found that Necro is the weakest town of the 6.
Worst tier 7 unit.
Medium to weak tier 6 unit.
Tier 5 is an archer large unit, imagine how "hard" it is to block it.
Vampires are ok, but not a powerhouse.
Ghosts... you can not base on incorporeal ability.
Zombies.. meh.
Skellies are ok.

If you want a chance with necro, get the cold skills. Deadly cold, Chilling steel, chilling bones.
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Arangar
Arangar


Famous Hero
Weak ranger - lost viking
posted April 21, 2006 09:32 AM

Duel mode is not balanced at all. If it had been balanced, then sylvan would not be allowed to pick more elves and druids instead of f.ex. sprites and war dancers (a nature army based on the entire army tree would be much weaker)

There is a counter needed, but there is none available. In the full game you would be able to tailor your army + hero to counter this style.

What if necro had only shadow dragons and vampires, with a master of reanimate (Pelt f.ex.). Add in a few +spellpower and knowledge arties + crazy attack or defence -> voila.. omg imba necro!

Not sure how they decide the "value" of different things when creating the duel heroes+armies, but there are some constraints missing

Just my 2cp
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Arangar
Norwegian viking
ranger of the north

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Khan
Khan


Hired Hero
Order in Chaos
posted April 21, 2006 10:24 AM

I agree that basing opinions on the duel is not correct. Take into account the necromancy skill in the real game - your army gets stronger the more battles you have while the others get weaker. Also in the Duel the hero is severly underpowered. Remember that heroes make or break an army. If you look at the number of skills that the necro hero has against the others she seems to have fewer skills and i don't think that the skills she has are the best choices that could have been made for the duel.

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lord_crusader
lord_crusader


Promising
Supreme Hero
UHU!! supreme!
posted April 21, 2006 11:53 AM

Quote:
I agree that basing opinions on the duel is not correct. Take into account the necromancy skill in the real game - your army gets stronger the more battles you have while the others get weaker. Also in the Duel the hero is severly underpowered. Remember that heroes make or break an army. If you look at the number of skills that the necro hero has against the others she seems to have fewer skills and i don't think that the skills she has are the best choices that could have been made for the duel.



that is my point... and also with the ability no rest for the wicked( at least this was the name in the open beta) that give you the chance of resurrect some of your units fallen in combat(including dragons, wights or vampires)... the necromacy skill still being the same nice thing that was in previews games... in a final battle necro will have much more army than any other town...
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LordRiton
LordRiton


Known Hero
posted April 22, 2006 03:23 AM
Edited by LordRiton on 22 Apr 2006

Like most of the posters here, i agree that duel heroes do not well representate the real force of their towns.

Seeing the potential of all towns affter many duels, i will even add that necropolis will fast be considerated as one of the strongest towns, if not THE strongest  

See the necro duel hero,  he only has 40 mana, also the mark of the necromancer never worked for me (the spell to gain mana when the linked to hero stack gets hit). He has weak attack/deff too.

Vampire lords aren't as strong as they were in heroes III, yes.  and that is GOOD !  
Remember in H3,  you could take down almost anythink with only 20 vampire lords on the map, including dragon utopias if your hero had good enough stats and the needed earth magic spells. And that is a bad thing in my opinion, you should never be able to do this with such cheep units


Necro will be overpowered  


Edit:

I'll give you an exemple of how overpowered they will be.
Remember, in H3,  you needed a strong army to take out an Azur Dragon dwelling. In such a dwelling there always was a stack of 3 azur dragons to fight befor you owned the dwelling.
In Homm5, you only need 4 wraiths !   4 stacks of 1 wraith. Each wraith killing one Azur dragon without retaliation with their special attack

Of course there are no azur dragons in H5,  but i think you see how strong the necros can be  


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Maslo
Maslo


Adventuring Hero
Lord of Vampires
posted April 22, 2006 05:44 AM

In early game necros are crap(in beta; i don't know the full game). I had over 40 skeletons, over 20 zombies and 2 ghosts. I fought with militia and won with 15 zombies left. Reason skeletons do 1(!) damage and few hit points. Ghosts didn't survive because their ability don't works realy often. And zombies survived only because of their high hit points and they also do 1 damage so it was a looooooooooooong fight. I think that zombies should have damage 1-2 and skeletons should have also 1-2. In previous games they were good because of their damage 2-3. They should also have such damage in Heroes V. Just my opinion.

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LordRiton
LordRiton


Known Hero
posted April 22, 2006 11:28 AM

I personnaly don't think they do to less damage. You cannot just take one creature of a town and say they do to less damage. You have to see the whole force of the towns creatures together. And compare them to the whole force of another town if you want to compare them.
But first, best what is to do is to upgrade skeletons to archer skeletons as fast as you can, that should already help a lot in early battles. Zombies beeing strong you can put them arround your shooters to protect them then

Also there are skills/artefacts that will raise the damage of all of your troops by 1 point for exemple. In case of a skeleton that does only 1 damage, it will doubble it's damage output


I think we can only really compare troops when the whole game is released, and then if it comes out that one army is to weak or to strong, it will , i'm sure, be fixed in a next patche


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Khan
Khan


Hired Hero
Order in Chaos
posted April 26, 2006 04:38 AM
Edited by Khan on 26 Apr 2006

I think that the page done by Miru gives a good idea of the balance of the towns.

http://www.heroesofmightandmagic.com/heroes5/necropolis_growth_chart.shtml

Necropolis is the cheapest by a long way and its growth is only just beaten by Haven because of their peasants they are in the top half for defence attack is equal with most Damage is better than many. All in all I think people are going to get a nasty surprise the first time they play against someone who knows how to handle necro.

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Gothic
Gothic

Tavern Dweller
posted April 29, 2006 04:10 AM

I've always played with my fellow undead, and I could say, I like them. Khan, it is a pleasure reading your posts. indeed a player who knows how to command his brainless army of undead minions, would wipe the floor with his adversaries.and that army could get scary with time, using necromancy and recruiting the weak, but almost free skeletons. and don't worry , ypu don't have to thank me for my amazing judgement.

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kinslayer
kinslayer


Sometimes death seems better-
posted May 08, 2006 05:11 PM

+ and - fo necro

well...necro in not a bad castle at all
1. wights are very usefull to use as tank or to cover the liches
2.in 2 weeks u can have 400+ skel archers, wich is quite good
3. vampire under lucretia sounds lethal
4.blind immunity,bersek,plague, and so on
5.have u read about that skill that places gost in the mines that u capture? dont kn the name. is a good source of ghosts
6.that skill that gives mana to necromancer when a unit is hit is perfect fo reanimation( or raise .
  I dont think that necro is thin. not at all
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Plexus22
Plexus22


Known Hero
posted May 08, 2006 09:22 PM

Quote:
Quote:
I agree that basing opinions on the duel is not correct. Take into account the necromancy skill in the real game - your army gets stronger the more battles you have while the others get weaker. Also in the Duel the hero is severly underpowered. Remember that heroes make or break an army. If you look at the number of skills that the necro hero has against the others she seems to have fewer skills and i don't think that the skills she has are the best choices that could have been made for the duel.



that is my point... and also with the ability no rest for the wicked( at least this was the name in the open beta) that give you the chance of resurrect some of your units fallen in combat(including dragons, wights or vampires)... the necromacy skill still being the same nice thing that was in previews games... in a final battle necro will have much more army than any other town...


It sounds to me from reading this entire thread that they (Ubi) simply did what was necessary to balance the game with Necro and make them usable again. If they were to make the Necro army comparable to most other factions plus provide the same overpowering types of abilities like Necromancy then again like in H3 necro would just be too powerful to use in online play.

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alcibiades
alcibiades

Hero of Order
and Light
posted May 09, 2006 06:58 AM

On a first look - without having tried the game yet - I have to agree with Silverhawk, that the Necropolis forces seem a bit underpowered. My main objections would be this:

Zombie: A useless unit. Slow, week and no specials. I find it difficult to believe that this unit will ever live long enough to actually get in contact with the enemy.

Ghosts: Would perhaps have been better to have the incorporality give it 50 % damage reduction instead of a 50 % chance of 100 % damage reduction. If you're luck is against you, they're pretty much dead ... Also, incorporeal creatures should be able to walk through obstacles.

Vampires: Does seem sligthly underpowered. It's a difficult line to walk, I think the H3 vampires worked fine - they were a great unit, but not too many hitpoints and not too strong, so spells + achers + impact unit would take it out well enough. The H4 vampire was way way WAY too powerful! This one seems a little too week - the Life Drain special is pretty sexy, but it only works if enough of the vampires survive the initial attack to actually deel some damage in return - and I'm not quite sure they'll be able to stand up to other level 4 units. And how can the vampire no longer have the flying ability?

Wraith: Harm touch should have been 10 % like the gorgons. Loved that one. Seems like a good unit, but might have been a bit faster.

Spectral dragon: What's with the only 10 hit-point increase on upgrade? If it's not even incorporeal, 160 hit-points seem way too low for a 7 lvl creature - or it should have increased growth. Also, I miss the aging ability.


I think the lich seems like a great unit - but I still miss the Dread Knight to really kick some @$$. I'm not sure how exactly I think they should have mixed the units - I think some renewal is good, and the appearance of the Wraith as a high-level creature is one of the few new things in the game, which I appreciate. To displace the vampire to third level (to make room for the Dread Knigt on 6th level) also seems a bit radical, so maybe the Dread Knight just have to go ... but I really don't like the Zombie. I hate useless units ...


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