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| Thread: Wishes for future patches (1.6 and 2.2) |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Shauku83
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted February 20, 2007 10:36 AM |
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Edited by Shauku83 at 11:15, 20 Feb 2007.
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I'm tired of those that compare the damage of the spells with the damage of normal shoots against tier 7s. Spells must not be useable only for tier 7s, you know.
Tier 7's must remain some of their usability, you know. Actually this is where I beg to differ. The spells are there to "take down the biggies", not ment against everyone. There is no way to balance this thing for the spells to be effective against level 1 creatures and level 7's. Even in the new system shooting will most definately be favoured against low level creatures. And why do the spells need to be effective against low levels, if the shooting does the job?
I am afraid the factions are balanced as a whole. What may seem like a reasonable change will tip the favour to one side. Casters are supposed to be powerful early. Are you complaining that Sylvan is overpowered early?
Casters may very well be the only things that keeps these faction in the game weeks 2&3, when other factions are rampaging. Sylvan canno't counter effectively a rush, not even with Druids. But they help. Later it turns differently and the casters loose potential.
And I do ask. Many want the damage to be similar to their range attack. So the Druid for example should have a powerful attack to use either versus magic-proof creatures and high defense creatures? I mean if the damage is aimed to be similar in most cases, the Druid can always use the attack that is favourable to them.
Look at the stats of Druid and Elder Druid. They are pretty much what stats for a level 4 shooter will look like. But on top of these, they are casters. In Heroes 4, the Genies had considerably less stats for being a caster. That was a positive thing. But their linear damage growth still made them overpowered. And you want creatures with excellent shooting capabilities and excellent casting abilities.
Here is some info from level 4.
Unit.......................average weekly damage vs. defense of 10
Archmage...............70 (no range)
Imperial Griffin.........95
Druid Elder..............101
Succubus Mistress....79 (chainshot)
Grim Raider..............84
Vampire Lord............86
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted February 20, 2007 11:27 AM |
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Shauku83 > I don't agree with your reasoning; although you do give a lot of correct information, I feel you reach the wrong conclusions. For instance you notice that Druid has "fairly average stats for a level 4 creature" (which is true - it's a bit above average, but not that much), and therefore conclude that they should no be stronger than the others by having an option for two attacks to increase damage potential. However, you do not take into account that Druids have a base growth of 4, whereas all others except Raiders has a base growth of 5. With castle, that gives a difference of 2 Druids per week comared to other level 4s, so yes, Druid should be stronger than the average level 4 unit. There is a reason why the Druid has a power rating of 846 compared to the average 709 of "normal" level 4 creatures!
And about the Titan example you mention. Seriously, I don't see that 100 Druids doing 1040 damage to a group of Titans is that overpowered. It'll take out 5 Titans, and you'll need a serious amount of time to assemble 100 Druids. By that time, 5 Titans are hardly going to be game-defining. And furthermore, by taking Titans, you pick the one creature where the Druid has its biggest advantage from the Caster ability [since, for some strange reason, the Titan has no Lightning Immunity - maybe one should mod that just because it'd make sense]. The Druid is supposed to shine against the Titan, because the only case where spells are really favorable is when the Defence value is huge, and obviously it doesn't become much bigger than with the Titan (at least not for a ranged creature). So yes, Casting will be great in that case, but I don't see that as a problem - I see that as the point of the Caster ability. That's what you pay those 2 Druids a-week for!
Finally, I cannot help but point out that 5 stacks of 10 Druid Elders will currently kill 5 Titans with their Lightning Spell - the same amount of 1 stack of 100 in my example. And yes, I know you can rarely afford to split them and take up 5 spaces with Druids, but still ... 
EDIT > BTW. how did you reach that number of 101 for the Druids in your previous post - can you elaborate that?
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What will happen now?
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Shauku83
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted February 20, 2007 11:45 AM |
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Edited by Shauku83 at 11:47, 20 Feb 2007.
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Shauku83 > I don't agree with your reasoning; although you do give a lot of correct information, I feel you reach the wrong conclusions. For instance you notice that Druid has "fairly average stats for a level 4 creature" (which is true - it's a bit above average, but not that much), and therefore conclude that they should no be stronger than the others by having an option for two attacks to increase damage potential. However, you do not take into account that Druids have a base growth of 4, whereas all others except Raiders has a base growth of 5. With castle, that gives a difference of 2 Druids per week comared to other level 4s, so yes, Druid should be stronger than the average level 4 unit. There is a reason why the Druid has a power rating of 846 compared to the average 709 of "normal" level 4 creatures!
I only ment that casters in Heroes 5 have around the same stats as normal creatures. Unlike in Heroes 4, where the caster had lesser stats to compensate for their linear spell damage.
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And about the Titan example you mention. Seriously, I don't see that 100 Druids doing 1040 damage to a group of Titans is that overpowered. It'll take out 5 Titans, and you'll need a serious amount of time to assemble 100 Druids. By that time, 5 Titans are hardly going to be game-defining. And furthermore, by taking Titans, you pick the one creature where the Druid has its biggest advantage from the Caster ability [since, for some strange reason, the Titan has no Lightning Immunity - maybe one should mod that just because it'd make sense]. The Druid is supposed to shine against the Titan, because the only case where spells are really favorable is when the Defence value is huge, and obviously it doesn't become much bigger than with the Titan (at least not for a ranged creature). So yes, Casting will be great in that case, but I don't see that as a problem - I see that as the point of the Caster ability. That's what you pay those 2 Druids a-week for!
Normally tier 4 creatures would not be able to take down that many tier 7's without effort. They cannot be blocked. In Heroes 4, we had line of sight to protect the ones we needed. In Heroes 5, direct damage reaches every corner.
There are several ways to take down higher tier creatures down easily, for every faction. There are Pit Lords, Hero damage, Wraiths, Cold Death, Casters. The one thing these have in common is that that they don't increase linearly.
But maybe it is not that bad as I think. The game hardly remains balanced on later levels anyways, so why should I obsess about this in particular? Well mostly because of Genie...it was gamebraking in Heroes 4 for me...along with Vampires.
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Finally, I cannot help but point out that 5 stacks of 10 Druid Elders will currently kill 5 Titans with their Lightning Spell - the same amount of 1 stack of 100 in my example. And yes, I know you can rarely afford to split them and take up 5 spaces with Druids, but still ...
EDIT > BTW. how did you reach that number of 101 for the Druids in your previous post - can you elaborate that?
Yes, I do not like the way damage increases that much by splitting. i do want something done there, but as I said, I want it to remain non-linear.
Elder Druid damage 9-14, Attack 12, Growth 8. Average damage 11.5.
Damage = 8*11.5*(1+0.05*2)=101
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted February 20, 2007 11:49 AM |
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Quote:
Elder Druid damage 9-14, Attack 12, Growth 8. Average damage 11.5.
Damage = 8*11.5*(1+0.05*2)=101
Ah, that was because I use damage 9-12 instead of 9-14. My mistake - that would make the calculations in the tables on previous page a bit off as well (average ranged damage 11.5 instad of 10.5) ... that does not change my points, rather emphasize them, however.
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(...) mostly because of Genie...it was gamebraking in Heroes 4 for me...along with Vampires.
Yes, Genies were completely broken in Heroes 4.  But even worse: Portal of Summoning > Water Elementals. That would provide you with a HUGE number of Water Elementals.
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ZombieLord
Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
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posted February 20, 2007 12:08 PM |
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Casters are supposed to be powerful early
Who said that? You?
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The game hardly remains balanced on later levels anyways
Just because you don't want to improve this game doesn't mean Alc's idea is bad.
Hey, the casters are supposed to use their shooting attacks against Magic Proof creatures (or at close range) and their spells against high defense creatures. However, mana limits this, unlike Call Lightning
The logarithmic formula is ridiculous because in some games it IS balanced because I have around 40 Druids (and their spellpower is actually aproximately correct calculated at that number) and in the long games it just changes the spellcasters uses (no spells). This is IMBALANCED
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VokialBG
Honorable
Legendary Hero
First in line
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posted February 20, 2007 01:31 PM |
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For Necropolis
1. The DE - it is one for all heroes all player's heroes must start with 200 DE (200 per hero, not 200 per all heroes).
2. I can't see the DE - only after battle, I want to see the the DE amount in the hero screen like mana "*/*"
3. We do not need Skeleton Archers, Skeleton Warriors are good, just better upg. for the skels, like:
A: 5
D: 6
Demage: 2-3
I: 9(or 10)
S: 5
HP: 10
4. The lich must be caster like the archlich, this is Lv. 5 creature! The mage and the druids are Lv.4 and are casters. The Mage have 18 mana, the Archmage - 25, and the archlich only 16  , we need Lich with 16 and archlich with 28 + more spells
5. Wight --->>> need an ability!
40% chance to curse enemy is good
(or why not:
20% chance to age enemy (halve hit points of all stack members).)
6. Wraith --->>>
Remove the Harm Touch
+ 40% chance to curse enemy
(or why not:
20% chance to age enemy (halve hit points of all stack members).)
+ 20% chance to do double damage
7. Vampire Lord, he get only teleport and some stats after upg., we need something like... Life Drain improvement too, or better stats...
The new necromancy is not too bad, the necro skills are are good, but the problems in necro are:
1. The Hero, Spell power and defence, but the necromanser need Knowledge and Attack:
- because the dark and summoning spells need more mana than the light and the Destructive
2. The Town --- you need to many stones!
An example:
for Lv. 7 Dwelling, you need:
in Academy - Town Level 15
in Dungeon - Town Level 15, Dark Enclosure
in Haven - Town Level 15, Monastery, Magic Guild level one
in Inferno - Town Level 15
in Sylvan - Town Level 15
in Fotress - Town Level 15
and Finally in Necropolis - Town Level 15, Castle, Citadel, Ruined Tower, Fort!
Why? For poor creatures like the bone dragon? If we need all these building for reaching Bone dragons... well no logic... you Nival guys...
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ZombieLord
Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
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posted February 20, 2007 01:38 PM |
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The DE - it is one for all heroes all player's heroes must start with 200 DE (200 per hero, not 200 per all heroes).
That won't make them too overpowered?
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The lich must be caster like the archlich, this is Lv. 5 creature! The mage and the druids are Lv.4 and are casters. The Mage have 18 mana, the Archmage - 25, and the archlich only 16 , we need Lich with 16 and archlich with 28 + more spells
What about the Priest?
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7. Vampire Lord, he get only teleport and some stats after upg., we need something like... Life Drain improvement too, or better stats...
Actually, he gets an improvement in Life Drain indirectly. He gets more damage, and Life Drained is 50% of the damage dealt -- so more damage means more Life Drained
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Why? For poor creatures like the bone dragon? If we need all these building for reaching Bone dragons... well no logic... you Nival guys...
Are you kidding? You don't want to place the Castle for double growth? Ok, maybe the Fort is annoying that it's required for Ghosts but...
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted February 20, 2007 01:46 PM |
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Quote:
EDIT > BTW. how did you reach that number of 101 for the Druids in your previous post - can you elaborate that?
Did it already in my chart, I believe it was the same.
BUT..
Grim raiders do 100+ due to defense negating.
Succubi Mistresses do 87,5% more damage than the chart shows due to chain shot.
Imperials do less, but they have init 15 and morale-affected battledive, which ends with sick damage.
That makes druids on the fourth place in terms of offensive, obviously, despite their higest damage per week from all level 4 units.
Btw I agree with Vokial.. well execpt for aging, it is too powerful to introduce it on a level 6 creature (but spectrals should have it IMO). Also, I like skeleton archers, they are funny
I'd like to see:
1. Spectres doing more damage
2. Vamplords being tougher offensively - their current state is pathetic
3. Wight/Wraight with some sort of interesting ability, even for the cost of -10 damageperweek or smth like that
4. Spectrals with aging or incoreporality, less ore needed (also less mercury for boners dwelling, it can remain 20 merc. for the upgrade if spectrals get some powerful special)
Also, necro desperately needs some kind of attack boost, since he sucks in ATT, light magic is next to impossible to get and morale doesn't affect undead, making the army MUCH weaker than any lategame counterpart.. a strong necromancy skill was always meant to make up for it, but the current form is too weak.
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ZombieLord
Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
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posted February 20, 2007 01:48 PM |
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Quote:
That makes druids on the fourth place in terms of offensive, obviously, despite their higest damage per week from all level 4 units.
That's why they need good spells, and, as a result, a LINEAR formula
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ZombieLord
Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
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posted February 20, 2007 01:57 PM |
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Quote:
1. Spectres doing more damage
2. Vamplords being tougher offensively - their current state is pathetic
1.4-6 is not enough? They are cheaper than the Cerberi, the damage is the same. Why is it pathetic? Perhaps because of Triple-Headed Attack, but Spectres have Incorporeal; a good trade IMO (the Cerberi may be faster than the Spectres, but also more fragile)
oh yeah, the Spectres also fly
2.I never found Vampire Lords pathetic. What's so wrong about them? I mean, they deal good damage, have No Retaliation, have Teleport, Speed 7 and Life Drain.
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted February 20, 2007 01:59 PM |
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I'd like to see:
1. Spectres doing more damage
You must be joking right? 
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2. Vamplords being tougher offensively - their current state is pathetic
What? They are almost the same as Succubi, how can they be poor offensively? With No enemy retaliation and life drain, you have one cool creature
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3. Wight/Wraight with some sort of interesting ability, even for the cost of -10 damageperweek or smth like that
Well then imagine they have the +10 damageperweek ability that compensates their "low" damage.
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4. Spectrals with aging or incoreporality, less ore needed (also less mercury for boners dwelling, it can remain 20 merc. for the upgrade if spectrals get some powerful special)
I don't recall Spectrals costing ore... ah, you're referring to the dwelling which is a different thing 
Incorporeality sounds nice for Spectrals, but I would rather improve Bone drags first.
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Also, necro desperately needs some kind of attack boost, since he sucks in ATT
Does that make defense weaker? He can neutralize a Demon Lord's attack, what's weak in this?
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light magic is next to impossible to get and morale doesn't affect undead, making the army MUCH weaker than any lategame counterpart..
But enemy won't be able to puppet master your Wraiths, will he?
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a strong necromancy skill was always meant to make up for it, but the current form is too weak.
I don't think so. Necromancy makes up for the other racial skills, which aren't that overpowered. It's just that you see things from a bad perspective -- I love necro and never take Necromancy as a main factor when choosing it's strength. And the creatures are not bad, in fact I could even say the Archlich is overpowered, but I don't think it'll have major impact
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sq79
Famous Hero
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posted February 20, 2007 02:00 PM |
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I think they need to tame haven especially in big maps.
Legions of marksmen are now replaced by throng of paladins 
Training priest to cavailier now costs 1937, and with pendant of master, its only $750 lol
They're totally untouchable in a big battle. When u have like 20 dragons, there would be 100+ paladins, with expert counterstrike, they're too strong to even be touched
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VokialBG
Honorable
Legendary Hero
First in line
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posted February 20, 2007 02:02 PM |
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Quote:
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Why? For poor creatures like the bone dragon? If we need all these building for reaching Bone dragons... well no logic... you Nival guys...
Are you kidding? You don't want to place the Castle for double growth? Ok, maybe the Fort is annoying that it's required for Ghosts but...
No, no, no the problem is not in the castle, but you need all these building for the bone dragon? I want to see:
Bone dragon - Town Level 15
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ZombieLord
Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
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posted February 20, 2007 02:03 PM |
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The thing that annoys me about the new training is that it's extremely CHEAP. Why the hell did they (Nival) change the costs?
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted February 20, 2007 02:07 PM |
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You must be joking right?
No I'm not, they hardly can kill a stack of peasants.
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What? They are almost the same as Succubi, how can they be poor offensively? With No enemy retaliation and life drain, you have one cool creature
Which, thanks to Necro's low att, does less damage than knight's full pop of conscripts. FANTASTIC creature. Ah, and uber cool lifedrain. You ressurect 1-2, and lose 20 in the next enemy's stack move. How uber.
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Well then imagine they have the +10 damageperweek ability that compensates their "low" damage.
And that does not satisfy me.. neither 99% of necro players.
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Does that make defense weaker? He can neutralize a Demon Lord's attack, what's weak in this?
No he can't, he gets DEF 30% of the time and demonlord gets it 45%.
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But enemy won't be able to puppet master your Wraiths, will he?
Well, that's good, yes. Too bad it doesn't mean a sh*t against might heroes with light magic.
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I don't think so. Necromancy makes up for the other racial skills, which aren't that overpowered. It's just that you see things from a bad perspective -- I love necro and never take Necromancy as a main factor when choosing it's strength. And the creatures are not bad, in fact I could even say the Archlich is overpowered, but I don't think it'll have major impact
What's overpowered in a creature that does a lot of damage.. on paper? The spells are decent, yes, but what's overpowered about them?
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ZombieLord
Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
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posted February 20, 2007 02:09 PM |
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No he can't, he gets DEF 30% of the time and demonlord gets it 45%
Necro gets spellpower 45% for Puppet Master or Blind (to last longer), the Demon Lord gets a sh*t.
That's your problem maybe (Spectres, VampLords): you think the Necro deals low damage because the hero doesn't have attack! But he has Spellpower to compensate that (that is, if you know how to use spells properly, ofc)
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Well, that's good, yes. Too bad it doesn't mean a sh*t against might heroes with light magic.
You can't expect Necro to be the ultimate killing machine of ALL factions. You play too much with Haven, man, which apparently is a good counter for Necro (no Puppet Master and High Morale)
Seriously now, try to play MORE on MORE maps and with MORE players (and different factions, not just Haven) before saying something needs to be changed 'cause it's underpowered
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted February 20, 2007 02:17 PM |
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Quote:
Btw I agree with Vokial.. well execpt for aging, it is too powerful to introduce it on a level 6 creature (but spectrals should have it IMO). Also, I like skeleton archers, they are funny
I'd like to see:
1. Spectres doing more damage
2. Vamplords being tougher offensively - their current state is pathetic
3. Wight/Wraight with some sort of interesting ability, even for the cost of -10 damageperweek or smth like that
4. Spectrals with aging or incoreporality, less ore needed (also less mercury for boners dwelling, it can remain 20 merc. for the upgrade if spectrals get some powerful special)
Also, necro desperately needs some kind of attack boost, since he sucks in ATT, light magic is next to impossible to get and morale doesn't affect undead, making the army MUCH weaker than any lategame counterpart.. a strong necromancy skill was always meant to make up for it, but the current form is too weak.
Well, yes, Vokial's suggestions are probably a bit over the top in terms of buffing Necropolis - we don't want them to be unstoppable. For instance, you cannot add 200 to the DE pool for each hero in the country - that would allow you to very cheaply buy 1400 extra DE each week (unless, of course those 200 did not go into the common pool, but it was remade so that each Hero had his own pool of 200 + Skill Bonuses etc. - that would be fine, except you'd have to change Pillar Of Bones radically, in the end ammounting to a nerfing of the Necropolis rather than a boost).
However, some more changes would be sweet. The idea of giving the Wraith some more powerfull ability would be nice - probably at the expence of a bit of damage. Personally, I find Harm Touch to be somewhat pale when compared to the Death Stare of the Mighty Gorgon of Heroes 3, for isntance. Giving the Wraith some sort of % killer ability on regular attack and then changing the activated Harm Touch to not only cleanse but also curse the target would be nasty (albeit maybe overpowered). It would be fun to give the Harm Touch the ability to invert spells, so that Light Magic buffs are turned into their Dark Magic counterpart - imagine using this ability on a target that has received Haste and Divine Strength. That would be fun, even if the attack itself did no damage. 
The Vampire is a bit on the weaker side, but looking at its stats, there's liitle room for improvement less it becomes too powerfull, I think. It could take a bit more health, though.
The Lich is fine as it is. It's a very capable damage dealer, so I think it's fine it only receives the spells on upgrades. Otherwise, it would be too attractive to delay the upgrade and save the resources.
And Shadow Dragon is obviously completely off on cost!
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What will happen now?
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ZombieLord
Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
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posted February 20, 2007 02:21 PM |
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It would be fun to give the Harm Touch the ability to invert spells, so that Light Magic buffs are turned into their Dark Magic counterpart - imagine using this ability on a target that has received Haste and Divine Strength. That would be fun, even if the attack itself did no damage
Great idea, Alc
Why do people not understand Harm Touch is not supposed to be a killer, but a cleanser (or effect handler - like Alc's idea)? It's the opposite of Lay Hands, which is not used for Healing, is it?
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted February 20, 2007 02:22 PM |
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No I'm not, they hardly can kill a stack of peasants.
Do you think Cerberi (by themselves no boost involved) are better?
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Which, thanks to Necro's low att, does less damage than knight's full pop of conscripts. FANTASTIC creature. Ah, and uber cool lifedrain. You ressurect 1-2, and lose 20 in the next enemy's stack move. How uber.
Necro's low att is NOT THE VAMPIRE.. IT's not the creature! Abilities say, Battle Frenzy, etc... are just hero skills not the creatures (i.e you lose 1 ability point where the enemy could choose Cold Death for example, i.e his creatures should be weaker unless you want him overpowered).
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Well, that's good, yes. Too bad it doesn't mean a sh*t against might heroes with light magic.
And you neither have Leadership always, or enemy could have Cursed Ring + Death's Shadow + Banshee Howl... see where morale leads to.
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What's overpowered in a creature that does a lot of damage.. on paper? The spells are decent, yes, but what's overpowered about them?
They are better than most tier 5s.. of course this game is random, so your actual "feel" (instead of on paper) will vary and, let's say, 1 additional damage for liches won't be noticeable by you... but it's better
The only problem is that they can be blocked easily and have a melee penalty
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted February 20, 2007 02:24 PM |
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Necro gets spellpower 45% for Puppet Master or Blind (to last longer), the Demon Lord gets a sh*t.
Oh really, cleansing with spellpower 1 or a paladin in the army >> your uber SPELLPOWER 98658045+ Puppet master 
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That's your problem maybe (Spectres, VampLords): you think the Necro deals low damage because the hero doesn't have attack! But he has Spellpower to compensate that (that is, if you know how to use spells properly, ofc)
Darm magic hardly needs spellpower.
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You can't expect Necro to be the ultimate killing machine of ALL factions. You play too much with Haven, man, which apparently is a good counter for Necro (no Puppet Master and High Morale)
No, but you can expect it to be at least a decent faction, not some underdog.
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Seriously now, try to play MORE on MORE maps and with MORE players (and different factions, not just Haven) before saying something needs to be changed 'cause it's underpowered
Same to you my friend, try to play more to learn that most factions thrash necro without much effort now.
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