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| Thread: Wishes for future patches (1.6 and 2.2) |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted February 27, 2007 05:16 PM |
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Very well. So, let me post a couple of numbers for you:
Unit HP per week
Griffin 350
Succubus 300
Vampire 350 (+ life drain!)
Raider 480 (!)
Mage 300
Druid 264
Berzerker 400
So yes, the Druid does the most damage, but is also has the lowest HP growth, and is subject to range penalty and melee penalty. So, does that make the Druid underpowered? No, because it has the spells to make up for this.
But if you take the spells away from it (= late game currently), the Druid is deffinitely badly off. So what if it does the most damage on average at full range - its first attack will probably be at half range, and even if he gets an attack in at full range, he'll probably be blocked in the next round, suffering melee penalty on attacks but full retaliation. And one shot at full range, however powerfull he is, will not take out an equal population of another level 4.
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What will happen now?
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Shauku83
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted February 27, 2007 06:13 PM |
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Edited by Shauku83 at 18:16, 27 Feb 2007.
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The difference is not that big between the shooters! Around 300 HP for all of them. What, as a shooter they have to have as much HP as the melee creatures? I thought that is something universally agreed - shooters have less HP. Besides, Succubus Mistresses have a defense of 6 compared to Druid Elders 9, so I'd say Succubi are the ones with least survivability from level 4.
If you count melee penalty and no range penalty as things that make them underpowered then I guess all shooters except Mages and Titans are too?
And casting is there always, with Endurance at least. +12 to Defence is no joke. Furthermore they can aid the hero with Mana Feed if blocked and don't want retaliation.
But true is that they lack combat abilities besides casting. But is that something inherently wrong with the system or is that only wrong in the case of the Druid? Wraith for example is nothing more than a melee creature when the numbers are massive. Underpowered?
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted February 27, 2007 08:44 PM |
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What I'm trying to say is that as I see it, all the different aspects of the Druid adds up to a ballanced creature. It has less HP because ranged attacks yields no retaliation. It has high damage because it has low growth. It has the option for damaging spells because it'll only do half damage when blocked. All that yields a ballanced unit.
However, in late game, the unit effectively looses the spells as an option (because they do so little damage). This means that the actual power of the unit decreases with increasing numbers, to approach some lower boundary corresponding to the creature without (offensive) spells.
Now, one can discuss whether the Druid is overpowered in early game and becomes ballanced in late game, or is ballanced in early game and becomes underpowered in late game. You vouch for the former, I for the latter, and well, nothing wrong with disagreeing on that, I guess that' just a point of view.
However, no matter how you turn it, there's something wrong with the system. Your point of view or mine, the Druid is imballanced some time during the game, and that's for me not the most favorable solution! That's why I want a linear system, that will essentially yield the same relative power of the Druid through the entire game. Of course, the linear coefficient should be chosen correctly in order to maintain ballance - that was the problem in Heroes 4, they chose the wrong coefficients, as you'll clearly see from my previous post with Heroes 4 numbers previously - but that does not change the fact that only with a linear solution will you reach a formula that will remain ballanced with the other creatures at all times, because all the other aspects of the game are linear.
The problem is also shown in the figure below. You can vary the coefficients for linear and logarithmic growth, but the two are never going to ballance. The linear will always overtake the logarithmic in the long run, whether it be very early in game (teal trend), mid game (yellow trend) or late game (pink trend). The deep blue and yellow line fairly good represent the current relations between spell damage and ranged damage in the game - in early game, spell damage is underpowered, in late game, spell damage is superior.
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What will happen now?
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Shauku83
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted February 27, 2007 09:28 PM |
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Edited by Shauku83 at 21:34, 27 Feb 2007.
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What about Hero Destructive? When there are 800 Druid Elders, what level will your hero be? It will be high but not that much higher from when you had 200 Druids. Why? Because heroes gain experience non-linearly. The same is true for Summoning, what on earth will you do with 40 Elementals when there are those forces against you? Now cast Light Magic for those thousands of creatures...
Druid CASTING is imbalanced, I agree totally. And perhaps Druid as a creature early is overpowered, but does that serve a purpose in the overall balance of the faction? Some creatures in the faction are less useful in the game than others, that is a fact. Like Zombies etc. From level 4 shooters Druid is the worst if shooting from long range, but the best if shooting from full range. That cannot be underpowered, as there is a situation where they are the best. Still I would rather choose Archmages or Succubus Mistresses, but is that a crime? There HAS to be someone who is lesser in power, unless you make all creatures clones of each other.
What I stated earlier is that the non-linearity shouldn't be as strict as it is now, meaning that casters should do less damage in small numbers and have a slightly bigger one in big numbers. What I also showed you that the Druids Lighting is more powerful against high tier creatures even when there are 100 of them, so I do not see the problem as big as you do in large numbers. A 1000 druids is a game I doubt I will see, but the game is WAY out of balance then in a million ways. Check my first paragraph.
But I'll say again, I want the damage to lessen a bit early and to increase a bit later. So that it will decrease the damage output of splitting the stacks by a notch.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted February 27, 2007 11:42 PM |
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Yes ... let's not get started on the Hero XP Scale - that is another thing I would like to add to things that should be changed! 
But yes, I think we should settle the discussion, since none of the solutions are right or wrong, but it's a matter of taste. It is true, that in the (rare  ) case where target defence is much larger than Druid attack, spells are going to be the better choice, even for a stack of 100, so maybe is not as pronounced as I see it. Extrapolating to 1000 Druids only has a point for theoretical reasons, I agree. So I think I have said all I have to say in the matter.
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What will happen now?
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Shauku83
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted February 28, 2007 12:34 AM |
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Yes, a truce might be healthy at this point 
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted February 28, 2007 12:57 AM |
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So, let's get back on the original track. A scan of the thread reveals this to be the major ideas suggested so far:
- Linear Spelldamage (controversal! But majority seems to support at least testing this)
- Further restrictions on Haven Training to prohibit +17 Paladins per week
- Necropolis DE: Further tweeking (more DE), but probably needs more game testing to know for sure
- Costs of Fortress buildings reduced
- Other possible resource changes (suggestions: Resource costs for Academy and Sylvan (wood) reduced)
- Rebalancing of Ultimate Abilities and changing requirements from 4 to 3 skills
- A better AI ...
- Modification of Shieldguards from Guard Post
- Two Hero Classes for each faction
- No Morale bonus to Griffins when Battle Diving
- Teams option
So, throw in other ideas, or give you oppinion on the above (but please, keep it short about #1 unless you have read all the previous posts on the subject and has something new to add ).
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What will happen now?
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PhoenixReborn
Promising
Legendary Hero
Unicorn
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posted February 28, 2007 12:58 AM |
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I see the thread has taken a different turn but my number 1 concern for the next patch would be smooth optimization. I want the game to run great on my x800 xl which is a fine piece of hardware. I don't like the stuttery long a.i. turns that grow longer on bigger maps...If they could have fixed it by now they would have, but it is still my hope. It's funny, the performance seems to vary from patch to patch, but it's never perfect.
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Bask in the light of my glorious shining unicorn.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted February 28, 2007 12:31 PM |
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That's weird, with my seemingly inferior x1800 GTO (overclocked, tho) the game runs perfectly smoothly for me on max details and even the AI turns don't take long.
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ZombieLord
Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
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posted February 28, 2007 02:01 PM |
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Something about the shooters... and yes it's about #1
The shooters should NOT HAVE lower HP and other stats than melee creatures. They receive No Retaliation because they shoot, but also deal half the damage from far range! ofc, they deal double (normal) damage from close range, but they also deal half the damage from melee attacks (and they don't have the No Retaliation anymore when blocked)
So, the conclusion is that the Druid SHOULD NOT have lower stats than the other tier 4 creatures, but now it has because the spells are there to compensate. I mean, look at the Shadow Matriarch and the Pit Lord (which is not shooter btw) and compare their stats with the Paladin, Wraith or Raksasha. They are seriously underpowered there, because they have spells!
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted February 28, 2007 02:30 PM |
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Quote:
Still I would rather choose Archmages or Succubus Mistresses, but is that a crime? There HAS to be someone who is lesser in power, unless you make all creatures clones of each other.
Mages should be the weakest spellcasters! But their Fireball becomes useless in epic sizes.. so Logarithmic really imbalances things. I know there are much more other imbalances, but let's just fix the ones we can currently
Quote:
But I'll say again, I want the damage to lessen a bit early and to increase a bit later. So that it will decrease the damage output of splitting the stacks by a notch.
Hmm that sounds very much like a Linear formula...
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Shauku83
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted February 28, 2007 02:51 PM |
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Edited by Shauku83 at 14:53, 28 Feb 2007.
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Quote:
Quote:
But I'll say again, I want the damage to lessen a bit early and to increase a bit later. So that it will decrease the damage output of splitting the stacks by a notch.
Hmm that sounds very much like a Linear formula...
Lol, I have tried to explain myself a dozen times and I will once more. I want the non-linearity to remain but NOT as strict as it is now. But we are moving away from this issue I hope, I have my point of view while the majority wants linearity it seems. So no need to flood the topic as it has been discussed quite thoroughly. Unless of course you have something interesting and new in relation to it.
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pomo
Famous Hero
The lone peasant
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posted March 01, 2007 03:47 AM |
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I have an idea that I would very much like to see implemented in the next patch: make the ATB value of units visible in game! It irritates me enormously that owing to the random start and non-visibility of ATB values that I can only really guess whether haste/slow/divine guidance/teleport assault are going to actually change the order of movement in the immediate future or not! I think that actually being able to plan your battles properly in this respect would be of great benefit strategically.
What do you think?
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted March 01, 2007 10:50 AM |
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Actually, that would be cool. They could display the ATB value when you right-click on the creature, where they also display active spell effects and abilities.
Oh, and another set of things we still need to get implemented:
- Flaggable Waterwheels and Windmills.
- A complete set of "Gardens" (like Garden of the Wee Folk, or whatever it's called), that produces not only Gems, but also one for Sulphur, Mercury and Crystal. Oh yes, and make them flaggable.
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Daystar
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Back from the Dead
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posted March 01, 2007 09:58 PM |
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Garden of the Wee Folk: +1 Wood and Ore each week
Garden of the Tomtems: +2 Gems weekly
Garden of the Gog: +2 Sulphur each week
Garden of the Munchkins: +2 Mercury weekly
Garden of the Pegasi: +2 Crystal weekly
Garden of the Halflings: +1000 Gold weekly
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How exactly is luck a skill?
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted March 01, 2007 10:02 PM |
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I was thinking more in line of something like the Heroes 4 objects, where there were 4 different map objects that would give either 500 Gold or 5 Mercury / Gems / Sulphur / Crystal. I don't remember the names. But I suppose either solution would work.
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What will happen now?
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Shauku83
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted March 01, 2007 10:05 PM |
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Edited by Shauku83 at 22:09, 01 Mar 2007.
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I miss the places where you fought for certain enemies for certain resourses.. Cyclops Stockpile, Medusa Stores (?), Imp Cache and Naga Bank. And Crypt, but we have that. I liked that the combat field was modified in them as well, you had to fight from the middle. I am not sure it is possible now with the smaller battlefield... Maybe all creatures would get -1 movement on these battles...
Edit. And Dwarven Treasury!
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Ted
Promising
Supreme Hero
Peanut Exterminator
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posted March 01, 2007 11:10 PM |
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any of you think that some of the artifacts need, resorting, like minor artifacts can be hopeless (like elemental wristband), but some are pretty good (+2/3 attack), any thoughts?
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pomo
Famous Hero
The lone peasant
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posted March 02, 2007 05:24 AM |
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Well you could still fight the dwarven treasuries etc with combat in the middle... we have a larger battle field for sieges, why not for that?
Ideally I'd like the ATB value just to be displayed on the creatures picture on the ATB, although the right click thing Alc suggested would be an awesome improvement too.
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dschingi
Famous Hero
the guy with the dragon golem
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posted March 02, 2007 08:33 AM |
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Seeing the exact ATB values would be great! But there should be a more visual approach than just printing the numbers... ok I don't know how exactly but that's Nival's job
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open source for an open mind
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