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| Thread: Wishes for future patches (1.6 and 2.2) |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted February 20, 2007 06:26 PM |
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So meanwhile if Alchi answeres into a few of my conserns. First of all, I asked earlier..
"And why do the spells need to be effective against low levels, if the shooting does the job?"
I'm not sure I understand this question (the frasing is a bit vague).
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We both noticed that Elder Druid has average stats for its level and is a very competent shooter. Why canno't casting be balanced that way, that when they reach epic levels like hundreds, it becomes automatically balanced because they become shooters then?
Well, if I understand this correctly, you want the ability to change somewhere during the game. First off, this would radically change the creature - much more than changing the damage scale would in my oppinion. Secondly, I don't like the idea of putting down some random boundary - say, at # > 100 - where the creature radically changes. But - again, I'm not quite sure I understood the full details of what you had in mind.
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I am concerned that how will you make sure that we do not have Genie on our hands again? There are a few things that actually favour the Genie, that he is actually more balanced than Druid with your system. a) there was line of sight b) the Genie was lousy in stats, unlike Druid
As I see it, there was nothing wrong with the Genie as such - it just did too much damage. Now I'm no Heroes 4 numbers expert, but I looked a bit into it, and found this:
Heroes 4 Genie: Base growth 6/week, Ice Bolt = 18 damage / Genie. This equals base Damage Growth 108 / week.
Base Damage Growth for other H4 level 3 creatures (no Attack influence calculated!):
Efreeti: 40-80
Nightmare: 48-106
Vampires: 36-54
Venom Spawn: 48-72
Crusader: 50-80
Monk: 60-90
Cyclops: 36-54
Ogre Magi: 72-108
Griffin: 64-88
Unicorn: 60-100
Naga: 56-88
So, what does this show? Well, Attack/Defence values are not included here, but judged by base damage growth alone, the Genie Ice Bolt is superior to all other third level creatures. This proves to me, that the concept of linear growth not necesarily is a bad one - the Spellpower chosen in Heroes 4 was just way too high, giving a too large damage output.
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What will happen now?
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Sanyu
Known Hero
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posted February 21, 2007 10:45 AM |
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I beg Ubisoft to boost Cerebuses' health...just two more hit points...
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted February 21, 2007 12:20 PM |
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Quote:
So, what does this show? Well, Attack/Defence values are not included here, but judged by base damage growth alone, the Genie Ice Bolt is superior to all other third level creatures. This proves to me, that the concept of linear growth not necesarily is a bad one - the Spellpower chosen in Heroes 4 was just way too high, giving a too large damage output.
Exactly.. Logarithmic (non-linear) has nothing to do with "nerfing" the spell damage, but rather make it a wierd and non-sense concept, even imbalanced (notice imbalanced means at times overpowered and some other times underpowered, etc). The Linear formula does not directly imply that the spell damage should be huge (as it's now for small stacks), it only shows a logical option to the spellpower increase.
So linear is the choice I agree here, and IMO should be implemented, because it's just too illogical right now 
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I beg Ubisoft to boost Cerebuses' health...just two more hit points...
Go to data.pak and open it with WinZip or WinRar, then go GameMechanics\Creature\Creatures\Inferno\Cerberus.xdb and open it with a text editor like Notepad, go somewhere along you'll find it's hit points, just increase by 2 (also probably you'll also want to change the hell hound). Then create your own folders exactly as the path above in the data folder. And put your Cerberus.xdb there.
If the path above is wrong sorry but I can't remember it exactly. Anyway based on some calculations (gold cost, etc) the Cerberus doesn't actually need some hit point increase (Though 1 hit point might work).
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Sanyu
Known Hero
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posted February 21, 2007 12:51 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
So, what does this show? Well, Attack/Defence values are not included here, but judged by base damage growth alone, the Genie Ice Bolt is superior to all other third level creatures. This proves to me, that the concept of linear growth not necesarily is a bad one - the Spellpower chosen in Heroes 4 was just way too high, giving a too large damage output.
Exactly.. Logarithmic (non-linear) has nothing to do with "nerfing" the spell damage, but rather make it a wierd and non-sense concept, even imbalanced (notice imbalanced means at times overpowered and some other times underpowered, etc). The Linear formula does not directly imply that the spell damage should be huge (as it's now for small stacks), it only shows a logical option to the spellpower increase.
So linear is the choice I agree here, and IMO should be implemented, because it's just too illogical right now
Quote:
I beg Ubisoft to boost Cerebuses' health...just two more hit points...
Go to data.pak and open it with WinZip or WinRar, then go GameMechanics\Creature\Creatures\Inferno\Cerberus.xdb and open it with a text editor like Notepad, go somewhere along you'll find it's hit points, just increase by 2 (also probably you'll also want to change the hell hound). Then create your own folders exactly as the path above in the data folder. And put your Cerberus.xdb there.
If the path above is wrong sorry but I can't remember it exactly. Anyway based on some calculations (gold cost, etc) the Cerberus doesn't actually need some hit point increase (Though 1 hit point might work).
Thanks for the info but the point is to make the change universal and to everyone's game.
Well at least a temporary solution
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Shauku83
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted February 21, 2007 05:11 PM |
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Edited by Shauku83 at 17:12, 21 Feb 2007.
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Quote:
Quote:
"And why do the spells need to be effective against low levels, if the shooting does the job?"
We both noticed that Elder Druid has average stats for its level and is a very competent shooter. Why canno't casting be balanced that way, that when they reach epic levels like hundreds, it becomes automatically balanced because they become shooters then?
Well, if I understand this correctly, you want the ability to change somewhere during the game. First off, this would radically change the creature - much more than changing the damage scale would in my oppinion. Secondly, I don't like the idea of putting down some random boundary - say, at # > 100 - where the creature radically changes. But - again, I'm not quite sure I understood the full details of what you had in mind.
I see that you misunderstood completely, but that is my fault. I mean that the Druid is a balanced creature automatically on epic levels, because it will use its shooting instead of casting. Not that it looses its casting ability altogether, but in more and more cases the shooting will surpass the damage of the spells. Actually in my 100 Elder Druid example the casting was still much more useful than shooting against high level creatures.
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...This proves to me, that the concept of linear growth not necesarily is a bad one - the Spellpower chosen in Heroes 4 was just way too high, giving a too large damage output.
No, linear is not necessarily a bad one. I do not know if it can be balanced, maybe it can. It just never have been done before. Anyways, the casting is an ability now, and does not have to work like normal damage. Just like Vorpal Sword or Harm Touch. I would agree if it was the default attack of the Druid that looses effectiveness but it is not.
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ZombieLord
Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
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posted February 22, 2007 09:45 AM |
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If you like how much damage 100 Druids deal now with their spells, then change the numbers of the SP calculation so that it will be like that. But a linear formula is still needed, so that 10 Druids won't be more 'overpowered' (also, you won't have to split them to do more damage)
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Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted February 23, 2007 12:14 AM |
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Edited by Moonlith at 00:21, 23 Feb 2007.
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I think linear increase of spell damage is needed. It makes little sense of 1 archmage deals the same spell damage as a stack of 100 archmages.
I'm wondering if the following formula would be a fair way to increase spelldamage:
Damage = (Standard spell damage calculation) + ( Tier level x N )
Where N = the number of creatures in a stack.
So a stack of 1 archmage would gain + 4 damage, where-as a stack of 100 Archmages would gain + 400 damage.
I don't know, that would seem pretty fair to me, or maybe devide the added damage by 2 so it doesnt grow into TOO large amounts. Although in this way, growth isn't taken into calculation, and level 4s gain more damage per week overall than level 5s. Humm... Tough one.
Otherwise, if spellcasters would get too overpowers with a linear addition, you could make it that a percentage of the target stack could try to dodge and evade it. And don't forget some creatures are imune or resistant to magic attacks.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted February 23, 2007 09:42 AM |
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@ Moonlith: I like the idea of systemizing the formula, but I still think one should stick to the concept of Spellpower, because the units use various spells with different damage calculation depending on mastery and Spellpower (for instance, Druid Elders do more damage with their Lightning Bolt than Druids, because the use it at Advanced level where normal Druids only use it at Basic).
To follow the idea, a linear systemized formula for the Spellpower could look something like:
SP = Coefficient x [Level / Weekly Growth] x Number
Looking back to my previous calculations, one would want the Druids to come out around 0.6 and the mages around 0.5. Noticing that Level / Weekly Growth is 1 for Druids and 0.8 for Mages, that would favor a coefficient of 0.6. However, this formula will then yield unproper numbers for higher and lower level units - like 0.03 for the Sprite (making Wasp Swarm damage even more neglegible) and 1.8 for the Pit Lord, which is way too much.
This would require some more advanced functional dependancy:
SP = Function (Level / Weekly Growth) x Number
What this dependancy should be, I don't know.
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What will happen now?
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Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted February 27, 2007 07:46 AM |
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Would it perhaps be an idea to try and use the creature's powerrating ?
Such as, Spell Damage = (standard spell damage calculation) + Powerrating/100 x N
Where N = number of creatures.
This would give + 1 damage per sprite,
+ 6 damage per archmage
+ 8 damage per druid elder
+ 14/15 damage per inquisitor
+ 23 damage per Pit Lord.
Sounds fair no?
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted February 27, 2007 10:15 AM |
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Well, first off, normal damage calculation should not apply on Spell attacks, as these are separate (alternative) attacks to the normal attack. If you make the Spell damage something that applies beyond the normal damage, you are essentially providing the creature with a double attack where defence does not apply on one of them. 
That being said, the idea of letting powerrating decide spell damage is not without its merits, because that would ensure that the damage will be proportional to the strength. However, the direct workings of the power calculation formula is not known, and I think when you go to high tier creatures (level 6 and 7) the damage would be too high. Titan would do some 60 points of damage without range penalty of defence modifier. 
I think the idea as such is interesting, but I don't see why it would be better than a simple linear formula.
Quote:
I see that you misunderstood completely, but that is my fault. I mean that the Druid is a balanced creature automatically on epic levels, because it will use its shooting instead of casting. Not that it looses its casting ability altogether, but in more and more cases the shooting will surpass the damage of the spells. Actually in my 100 Elder Druid example the casting was still much more useful than shooting against high level creatures.
Oh, and I just noticed this from a number of posts back, that I would like to address.
Actually, as I see it, the Druid is underpowered at epic levels, because he essentially looses his offensive spellcasting capacity (1000 Druids doing 850 damage with Lightning Bolt - please give me a break!). In the current system, the Druid is overpowered in low numbers, ballanced in medium numbers (20-40) and underpowered in larger numbers (50+). That spells one word ...
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What will happen now?
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Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted February 27, 2007 10:20 AM |
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Edited by Moonlith at 10:22, 27 Feb 2007.
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Well it doesn't go for Titans, since Titans aren't casters, and their ability "Call lightning" has a fixed formula for calculating the damage it does.
As for normal damage calculation, I was referring to the way normal spell damage of their spells is calculated, not their stats. Sorry if I made that unclear 
Further, the only high-leveled caster is the tier 6 pitlord, and given his low iniative, I think he would deserve that added bit of damage boost in his spells, honestly. He can only cast twice anyway.
I think it would be an easy and fair way to add damage in higher numbers, it works linear after all.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted February 27, 2007 10:31 AM |
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Yes, but it would be nice to have something that works not only for the creatures currently in the game, but could ge expanded generally to work for any creature (say, new ones, or if you wanted to give the Titan the Chain Lightning spell (which I would love to, but cannot, because the current fantastic system would make 1 Titan do spell damage of 125 on first strike with Chain Lightning!  )).
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Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted February 27, 2007 10:54 AM |
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Well don't you think high tier creatures would technically deserve such awesome power?
Don't forget Growth still plays a part in this.
Pit lord may get 23 damage then, but only 4 x 23 a week.
Druid Elders on the other hand gain 8 x 8, so it still gets closely even, but the higher tiers still get more damage, like they should.
And if the damage really DOES get too intense, well, you can always add a /2 to the entire formula for spell damage calculation 
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TowerLord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted February 27, 2007 11:03 AM |
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about the non-linear damage of spell casters... I want to make some points :
1. offensive spells can be resisted ! and sometimes the chance of that happening is very high ( armor of the forgotten hero + resistance = 35%, if you add aura of unicorn ... it gets to an incredible 65%)
2. there are abilities like protection, sap magic, which reduce their damage(acting like a fixed defense or something).
3. the damage is very low compared to normal attack ( in very high numbers)
4. you cannot get lucky spells
5. the archmages are probably the most important troop of the academy, and they make up for the whole crappy line-up(in terms of dealing damage) in early stages ! Why not have them there in late battles too , to stand up proud as academy force no. 1? After all that's what Academy is all about... magic
So ... Linear formula for spells 
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted February 27, 2007 12:47 PM |
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Quote:
1. offensive spells can be resisted ! and sometimes the chance of that happening is very high ( armor of the forgotten hero + resistance = 35%, if you add aura of unicorn ... it gets to an incredible 65%)
I think it is multiplicative, not additive  but I'm not sure
Anyway I don't get it why people see "Linear" as overpowered -- it does not necessarily imply that the spellpower be high, only that it increases linearly (i.e fair). So Linear all the way
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Darksequence
Hired Hero
For great justice!
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posted February 27, 2007 01:48 PM |
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Quote:
about the non-linear damage of spell casters... I want to make some points :
1. offensive spells can be resisted ! and sometimes the chance of that happening is very high ( armor of the forgotten hero + resistance = 35%, if you add aura of unicorn ... it gets to an incredible 65%)
I agree although armor of forgotten hero is a relic and not easily obtained in most maps, think about it, dwarven luck + magic res + boots of magic res. {far easier to obtain} already gives 50% magic res if combined with armour of forgotten hero it be a staggering 90%!
Also to stay onthread I'd like to see mummies and maybe deathknights as options to being raised by necromancy, maybe something like this:
Champions,cavalier,palladin-> deathknight
Priest, inquisitor,rune patriarch, shadow witch+matriarch->mummies ( suits biography since they're dead spellcasters and all)
also think lord of the undead and amulet of necromancy (its the most useless relic now) should give DE bonus.
A genie specialty hero for academy would be cool too, one that maybe improves their spells instead of att and def.
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TowerLord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted February 27, 2007 02:40 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
1. offensive spells can be resisted ! and sometimes the chance of that happening is very high ( armor of the forgotten hero + resistance = 35%, if you add aura of unicorn ... it gets to an incredible 65%)
I think it is multiplicative, not additive but I'm not sure
Anyway I don't get it why people see "Linear" as overpowered -- it does not necessarily imply that the spellpower be high, only that it increases linearly (i.e fair). So Linear all the way
I'm pretty sure its additive ... I once had all three, and the resistance was really crazy ...
My inferno opponent tried to cast :
Fire Ball from ballista (he was Deleb) - all creatures resisted or almost all (i'm not sure about master hunters which were also hit by the shots of the ballista)
Puppet Master with his hero - resisted
Meteor Shower from Pit Lords - all resisted
Puppet Master once again from Hero - resisted
.....
it was really crazy resistance. I fought three times in that game against him, and when i had the unicorns near me I was almost immune to spells 
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Shauku83
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted February 27, 2007 02:45 PM |
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Quote:
Actually, as I see it, the Druid is underpowered at epic levels, because he essentially looses his offensive spellcasting capacity (1000 Druids doing 850 damage with Lightning Bolt - please give me a break!). In the current system, the Druid is overpowered in low numbers, ballanced in medium numbers (20-40) and underpowered in larger numbers (50+). That spells one word ...
I am sorry to insist on this point. But do you agree... The Druid itself is NOT underpowered on epic levels, because it is a shooter, but Druids CASTING is? Do you see the difference?
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted February 27, 2007 03:43 PM |
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Yes, I see the difference.
But, Druid has a lower growth (4 compared to 5) because he has the casting ability. Thus, when you take the casting ability away from him, the Druid will be weaker than the other level 4 creatures, because he comes in lower numbers. Therefore, Druid in late game is underpowered. Of course, he's a fairly capable unit, and will not be too bad off, but he will still be the underdog without the casting ability.
What do you think will be the outcome of, say, 800 Druids vs. 1000 Vampire Lords? Or 800 Druids vs. 1000 Imperial Griffins? 800 Druids vs. 800 Grim Raiders? He might stand up to 1000 Mages, however, because they both are equally crippled by their useless spells in late game.
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What will happen now?
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Shauku83
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted February 27, 2007 04:58 PM |
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I'll post these again for your pleasure.
Unit.......................average weekly damage vs. defense of 10
Archmage...............70 (no range)
Imperial Griffin.........95
Druid Elder..............101
Succubus Mistress....79 (chainshot)
Grim Raider..............84
Vampire Lord............86
A weekly population is 10 for Archmages, Imperial Griffins, Succubus Mistresses and Vapire Lords. A weekly population is 8 for Druid Elders and Grim Raiders. So we can multiply these numbers by 100 if you want, but the result is the same.
If you honestly think that Druid Elders are underpowered, I really would like to see some more details pointing to that. 1 vs.1 combat does not cut it at all, shooters are ment to have a protector! That is the reason why we have creatures with high defense and low speed in the first place (the tanks).
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