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Zedrin
Known Hero
Ping pong goes the gong
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posted April 06, 2001 11:15 AM |
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Honor? What is Honor actually?
I mean really... what is Honor? Honor this Honor that all day long. What is it actually? Mercy towards a weaker oponnent? Righteously smiting evil? And for that matter what is Evil, or Good?
I know that this ain't so much a Heroes related topic, more philosophically oriented, but as the main Heroes tournament running is called Tournament of Honor one should know what is truly expected of him.
Chances are that each will understand and accept a bit, a piece of the puzzle or definition.
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"Blow wind! Come wrack
At least we die with harness on our back" - Shakespeare, Macbeth
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Zamolxes
Tavern Dweller
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posted April 08, 2001 07:03 AM |
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"Chances"!! Well put there zedrin
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Zamo™
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Undead_Knight
Known Hero
Hero of Chaos
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posted April 09, 2001 10:12 AM |
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to zamolxes
I m sure that to take avatar that is already used is not honor  
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Shae_Trielle
Honorable
Famous Hero
of Heroes
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posted April 10, 2001 12:48 PM |
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What is Honour?
LOL, you all know deep down what honour really is. It's about being fair and not automatically expecting the same fairness in return. For example, I played a game where my opponent was on the ropes after being pounded by the computer. I told him that if the computer defeated him, I would not report a win (it isn't a win in my opinion). He survived, barely, and a week or two later, I got smashed by the computer. I lost my main hero, my castle, everything. Did I whinge? No. I did the honourable thing and posted my loss. Perhaps the other player did not reciprocate my own intentions, but I would not pressure a player to 'follow my lead'. I make my own decisions about honour, and I trust them, yet I do so with the knowledge that my own generosity may not be returned. That does not mean that the opponent lacks honour, it merely means that I know that I have done the right thing. His victory was a sour one, my loss, one of the sweetest I have tasted. *smile*
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Mystery
Famous Hero
Hatebreeder
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posted April 10, 2001 11:41 PM |
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Yes, Shae, that is honor.
By the way, I don't think that u taseted ur loss, because by ur avatar it looks like u haven't eaten anything for the last, hmmmmmm............ 100 years .
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D3@th t0 Fals3 m3Tal!
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Shae_Trielle
Honorable
Famous Hero
of Heroes
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posted April 11, 2001 11:09 AM |
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Mystery
I wonder what you taste like, Mystery....
*smile*
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zedrin
Known Hero
Ping pong goes the gong
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posted April 11, 2001 06:27 PM |
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Does that mean that honor is altruism?
You sacrifice your own interest for another one a "Greater Good"... while not expecting anything in return... we always expect something in return, either material or spiritual...
So you did yourself a service by not accepting an easy win and accepting a deserved loss...
It made you feel good inside didn't it?
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"Blow wind! Come wrack
At least we die with harness on our back" - Shakespeare, Macbeth
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dEth8
Promising
Known Hero
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posted April 11, 2001 08:21 PM |
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Altruism
Personally I don't consider taking the loss is worth the feeling of honor Warlock, yet that is what I would do anyhow. I am sure you can assign something to that to avoid altruism actually existing, but it doesn't even feel good. Am I warped?
-dEth8@doesitexist.com
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Columbus
Hired Hero
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posted April 11, 2001 09:34 PM |
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I have a different take on it - I think that "Honour" refers to player honour more than anything else
So it mainly means not cheating, including those little things that might be cheating or might not. If in doubt you shouldn't do it in ToH.
I'm referring to, for example, a feature like the fact that cyclops could target the defenders during the catapult phase in 1.0. OK, it's in the program but it's clearly unfair - it's a mistake in the program that was later fixed with a patch
If my opponent suffers against the computer I would still attack him/her to the best of my ability.
I think most online players are looking for opponents who play to their best. I would be uncomfortable if I thought my opponent hadn't. (In fact in the Hall of Shame someone was thrown out for losing all the time and being negative!)
That said, I think there is room for people with differences of opinion about this
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YouSmell
Tavern Dweller
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posted April 12, 2001 10:05 AM |
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Well i agreed with zedrin about honour is like altruism on his post after Shae's touching post. i am really touched with Shae's post, its so touching it made my heart melt. Anyways, i would not do that, hell no, and i don't think anyone would, maybe if he's ur best friend on a really good gamemate. You play the game for fun, for yourself, be honest with yourself and pride for yourself. You don't play it and spend 2-3 hours or more just to make other other happy. Well thats what i think honour is. Just if you win, dun brag about it and make your opponent cry or smash his computer, then its fine unless you don't like him
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Tekken Tag
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Shae_Trielle
Honorable
Famous Hero
of Heroes
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posted April 12, 2001 02:46 PM |
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Mixed it up
There is a difference between taking a win that is earned and merely sitting back and watching a player crumble. I was playing a map with three computer opponents and within the space of three weeks, ALL three computers attacked him. Now if they had have destroyed him (I mean killing his main, his scouts and taking his castle) while I sat back and did nothing, then that is (in my humble opinion)not a win that I deserve. On the other hand, if the computer attacked my opponent and I had've picked the right time to move in and finish him off, then by all means, I would have taken the win. The win is an honourable one as long as I dealt the killing blow. If the computer deals the killing blow, then I was too slow to take advantage of my opponents weakened state and therefore, the win should not be mine. But then again, that's just me, I play for fun first, honour second and to win third. Maybe you guys put everything into a different order and that's ok, but don't lay it on me just because I play fair and not necessarily hard. And as for you VU, well, you just plain stink!
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dEth8
Promising
Known Hero
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posted April 12, 2001 09:30 PM |
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lol!
......"you plain stink!"...
funny pun
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pluvious
Promising
Adventuring Hero
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posted April 12, 2001 10:11 PM |
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honor
Honor has to do with dignity and the fellow opinions of others. It is a community esteem, to be praised and respected by those who you in turn admire. It can be subjective, but in regards to the toh tournament should probably be looked at as trying to do what others appreciate for the sake of high standing in their moral graces.
Those who disregard honor should not be held as highly in the community.
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...Pluvious...
-The Storm Before the Calm-
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Zedrin
Known Hero
Ping pong goes the gong
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posted April 13, 2001 02:44 AM |
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The Question:
"A knight in shinning armor passed,
riding high and proud...
A demon with his master passed,
with gore and blood around...
A fair maiden slowly passed
Eyeing me warily...
"These three will meet their doom someday
A voice spoke softly...
The knight will ride and fight and win
And crumble in the light...
The demon will twist and turn and burn
Until he joins the night...
The lady will live and love and die
For her there'll be no plight...
Who will have mattered in the end?
A knight of right,
A demon of might
Or a lady of light?""
So what is more important? Following a code, following Your code, or True nature, or being at peace with the world. Which affects the world more? Creation or destruction? Patches of light or pockets of darkness? Towers of solitude or cities of silence?
Which one of these is honour? What is the honourable thing to do? Obeying the rules, being true to your nature or noninterference?
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"Blow wind! Come wrack
At least we die with harness on our back" - Shakespeare, Macbeth
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Valeriy
Mage of the Land
Naughty, Naughty Valeriy
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posted April 13, 2001 04:33 AM |
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A wise post indeed Zedrin...
I have been studying the taoist philosophy lately. It talks of the third path, like that lady. However, that will be following your nature, but withdrawing from interference where not absolutely necessary. The nature may require you to kill in self-defence, but only if there is absolutely no other option left to survive.
Creating unnecessary problems to solve, an example of which is a game of heroes, nor voluntarily opposing another human being is not the way of a third approach, so if heroes are not it, how can TOH be it?
All that's left is to contain the demon and live up to the knight in shining armor, for demons will be banished, speaking of TOH. It's a game of living up to that image. For some it's easy, and some try to pretend. Of those some are successful it seems. But their triumphs are hidden, for the knights' code is written.
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You can wait for others to do it, but if they don't know how, you'll wait forever.
Be an example of what you want to see on HC and in the world.
http://www.heroesofmightandmagic.com
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Zedrin
Known Hero
Ping pong goes the gong
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posted April 13, 2001 02:42 PM |
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Noninterfering is not a true nature. We change something whenever we breathe, whenever we act, be that action creative or destructive...
The knight follows a code, which is mainly based on vanquishing Evil... But Evil is not a clearly defined concept, so the knight only destroys that which is his oposite... That does not make the knight necessarily Good, if we accept that there is a form of Higher Power, with True Values and Realities. The knight simply acts from his perspective, his actions restricted by his code.
The Demon destroys because it is his nature. That does not make it wrong. He affects the world as much as the knight and only because he has different values that does not make his actions wrong.
The Lady acts out her life, without any Greater purpose... She simply accepts the fact that she Exists, and does not question the reasons why, nor does she search for enlightenment... In a way she is of the three the truest to her Nature, as the knight is bound by his code, the demon by his master.
In toh, honor can be symbolized by the balance between the need to win and the will to have fun. Some of those that could not control their urge to win are found in the Hall of Shame. Some that have fallen into the other extreme have medals of honor...
Not all of either kind though...
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zamolxes
Tavern Dweller
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posted April 14, 2001 01:33 AM |
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Now, hope thats better.
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Zamo™
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ironmlh
Known Hero
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posted April 14, 2001 02:00 AM |
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honor
Honor is what we each make it up to be, at least for ourselves. To me honor is playing a fair, fun game respecting your opponent and trusting him. I trust all people i play in TOH. I have been burnt a few times early in my TOH career, but now I am a little more carefull who i play. Although i have had fun, honorable experiences with players with under 10 TOH games player.
Honor is also good sportsmanship, not snowin about this and that and just taking the game as it is, a game, for fun, for honor.
ironmlh
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Mocara
Famous Hero
what?
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posted April 14, 2001 02:27 AM |
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Honor is personal
All values are individual.
I am sure the player viewing save files can justify it to himself somehow or to the opposite extreme letting your opponent get away with poor play vs the computer and not making him have a loss could also be called honor.
I have read a million books on philosophy but nothing quite prepared me for being an example to another human as I am now through the magic of fatherhood.
I tear through about a book a month on parenting philophies and I think in being a parent honor is more important than ever. He will do what I do. It's like someone cast "clone" (heaven help him :-). My point is that through watching chrildren play day in and day out I have learned a lot about honor.
They do not fear repurcussions in the same manner we do and they act more naturally and honor is of utmost importance in their kingdom.
Step out of line and you cannot play anymore.
Get pushed around and noone wants to hang with you.
Kids know all about honor but as we age we are taught new sets of conduct from business, religion and government.
Step on this guy to get ahead.
Forsake thy desires to go to heaven.
Protect your house and you can go to prison.
We spend so much time adopting sets of other peoples values that honor all but becomes lost.
It is no wonder we have to ask such a question that really we should never have to ask.
Shifting gears, I really liked the spirit of your letter Shae but I personally believe we cheat our opponents out of evolving if we pull our punches.
Hammer someone into submission with all our mights and we tell them we have respect for them. That we fear their skills and want to make sure we win now while we can.
If the computer beats someone I would take the win. What else will motivate them to get their skills together?
Competition breeds excellence and "Mercy insults the recipient."(Sun Tzu).
Seriously how would you feel if someone showed mercy on you? Pathetic? I know I would. I'd get mad and quit the game. Don't waste my time pitying my lameness. If I suck let me do it with dignity. Give me your A game with no mercy so that I might learn from it or if I am able to win then I can say I beat your best.
-Mocara
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dEth8
Promising
Known Hero
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posted April 14, 2001 06:32 AM |
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Mercy can be a good teacher
Hmm.... then do you advocate putting a 4 year old child in a driver's seat so they learn to drive well Mocara? Show them no mercy right? Back for more later hopefully, but just a quick thought.
Zedrin has some interesting ideas there on basic relativistic thought, but I notice the preface that about an outside criteria too, and if there is an outside force of higher order then all that relativism get shreded in light of that higher standard. A creator?
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