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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: Legalize Drugs?
Thread: Legalize Drugs? This thread is 8 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 · «PREV / NEXT»
JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted March 02, 2009 10:21 AM

Quote:
Quote:
mvass:

I'm still for full legalization myself. Any drug type.

Are you serious? I'm pretty sure you know how extremely addictive cocain is, how dangerous LSD and all the other stuff. What good could it possibly do to make it easier for the people to get selfdestructive stuff like that?
I mean we can talk about weed and the harmless stuff for sure but not about the hardcore ones. Legalizing them is plain stupid, sorry.
Why is it stupid? Well society has tons of people who would start taking drugs to get out of their depression which would lead to hordes of junkies (as if they'd be able to control their addiction...) and crazy people (either under the influence or damaged through sideeffects).

Or what possible positive effect of the "lagalize any drug typ" idea didn't I get?

You are not well informed. The biggest problem with ALL illegal drugs is the fact that there is no "quality control", making the whole business unreliable and something of a Russian roulette. The average user gets stuff that's so diluted with dangerous crap that their health will suffer from that a lot more than from the drug itself.

Legalization is not the same than handing the stuff out to everyone or the stuff being available everywhere. It just means that people are not criminalized because of using drugs which is actually the biggest problem, both for society, but for the users as well, since getting out of the criminal scene is a big problem in itself.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


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posted March 02, 2009 10:39 AM
Edited by Doomforge at 10:56, 02 Mar 2009.

Quote:
I'm still for full legalization myself. Any drug type.

Are you serious? I'm pretty sure you know how extremely addictive cocain is, how dangerous LSD and all the other stuff. What good could it possibly do to make it easier for the people to get selfdestructive stuff like that?


Prohibition does nothing. NOTHING. People still do drugs, get addicted, become junkies. The only difference is that they buy crappy stuff that's contaminated with fillers rather than real drug, which triples the risk of a disease, and fuel up local drug lords. This is the ONLY difference between legal and illegal drugs. Because if you want it, you can buy it without one tiny bit of a problem, trust me. So, why not in shop, clean, and actually with a benefit to the country via taxes?

Quote:
I mean we can talk about weed and the harmless stuff for sure but not about the hardcore ones. Legalizing them is plain stupid, sorry.
Why is it stupid? Well society has tons of people who would start taking drugs to get out of their depression which would lead to hordes of junkies (as if they'd be able to control their addiction...) and crazy people (either under the influence or damaged through sideeffects).


That's pretty funny. You assume they don't take them because it's illegal. Is that so? I'll tell you something. Most people don't give a flying **** whether it's illegal or not. See downloading games via torrent. It's illegal. Do people care? NO. Because it doesn't harm anybody in a DIRECT way. With drugs, it's the same. It's YOUR business. You don't harm anybody. Thus, people don't see it as crime. And thus, banning them is completely, utterly pointless, and your logic is simply flawed here

Quote:
Or what possible positive effect of the "lagalize any drug typ" idea didn't I get?


Explained that millions of times. The biggest one is obviously the downfall of drug-based criminal gangs, and just for that, it's worth it. Do you have an idea how sick it is right now? There is so much money made there it's not even funny. But who would buy stuff of dubious origin if you could just buy clean stuff in a shop, and CHEAPER? Nobody. And the drug lords would fall, as they should.

The country would benefit from this obviously, as I said before. Taxes.

Also, people would not poison themselves with a drug that has 10% drug and 90% fillers. Take heroin. You can buy it in Poland at the central railway station in a form of liquid called "compote". Inside, there is just a bit of heroin, and a ton of other stuff, and since everyone fills their syringe without care, it can be contaminated with HIV. It's really bad stuff.

Now, see the alternative. The junkie buys heroin in a shop. it's not contaminated, it's clean, it's legal. He is informed how much he can take, there is a medical care point close by, just in case he needs some help. What's wrong about it?

You seem to consider people as brainless children here Azzie. People don't need bans and prohibitions. They just need solid information and awareness. Both can be got at many places - from parents, in school. People who understand drugs and their mechanics - and in such case where parents/schools teach about them - KNOW the risk. If they want to take them anyway, no stupid BAN will stop them. Because if they, knowing what risk they take, willingly take a shot, do you think LEGAL STATUS would stop them? Oh, please. This is so stupid.

See for yourself, anyway. Nobody cares whether is legal or not.

To be honest, I don't see even one con of legalizing drugs.


Drugs are already legal anyway. The heroin stereotype is tiresome. Most people never go near that ****. 99% of junkies are perfectly normal, communicative people, and you would have one hell of a hard time to notice they do drugs. The heroin stereotype is rare, trust me. It's the end of the road, not many people go there. They are simply afraid.

Why it is legal? Well. You can buy codeine in a pharmacy. Tussipect. Acodin. They all contain it, or its derivatives. I won't give the details here how or how much, but trust me, the "illegal" status of drugs is just a stupid joke.
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


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posted March 02, 2009 10:45 AM

Right.

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Moonlith
Moonlith


Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
posted March 02, 2009 02:28 PM

Quote:
You seem to consider people as brainless children here Azzie.

In all fairness, that is actually true. Most people don't act like intelligent beings at all. Or maybe I should put it differently: Most people lack a great deal of common sense, that's why they call Doctor Phil intelligent even though the only thing Dr. Phil has is a snowload of common sense.

"OMG he is so intelligent!"
"He's not intelligent, you're just stupid."

In any case, I fully agree with everything you said there Doom Nothing to add there.

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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted March 02, 2009 02:30 PM

Wolfman:
I'm not faulting the sober driver - it's the drunk driver's fault. However, if you step in the middle of a crosswalk and get run over, it'll be the driver's fault, but it was you who accepted that risk when you stepped on the crosswalk.
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DeadMan
DeadMan


Known Hero
The True Humanitarian
posted March 02, 2009 03:37 PM

Drugs should not be legalized because they are just attempts to escape from this world. Instead of building an imaginary world that disappears after the next puff, people should start building paradise on Earth.
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del_diablo
del_diablo


Legendary Hero
Manifest
posted March 02, 2009 04:47 PM

Quote:
Same with guns. Suppose a guy owns a gun, and uses it at a target range regularly. He never uses it for any other purpose. Surely he should be allowed to have that gun.


If the person gets a license and the requirements for the license is to have a clean record, alongside with a need for the weapon(hunting club, shooting club, etc), then i say: "Welcome to Norway".
Its practicaly pretty hard to get a gun here
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Ednaguy
Ednaguy


Supreme Hero
My water just broke! No, wait.
posted March 02, 2009 04:50 PM

Quote:
It's practicaly pretty hard to get a gun here

Have you tried?
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baklava
baklava


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posted March 02, 2009 04:53 PM

Quote:
With drugs, it's the same. It's YOUR business. You don't harm anybody.

Except yourself, your family, your friends and - well - practically anyone if you stab someone for cash to get another dose, try to drive under the influence of drugs etcetera etcetera.
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del_diablo
del_diablo


Legendary Hero
Manifest
posted March 02, 2009 04:57 PM

Quote:
Quote:
It's practicaly pretty hard to get a gun here

Have you tried?


Lets se:
1: First i need a valididation to aquire one(like a hunting license, valid firearm club membership, etc)
2: Then i can get the validation to have a firearms
3: Then i can order the gun

If my membership drops or i stop hunting(i think its 2 years time) i am required to get rid of the ammo for the weapon.
Look at it another way, i cannot get an firearm for self defence. And the requirements for getting one is high enogh.

Getting it illegal? Requires contacts and more contacts, then some smuggeling and then somewhere to hide it.
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Doomforge
Doomforge


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Retired Hero
posted March 02, 2009 06:00 PM
Edited by Doomforge at 18:03, 02 Mar 2009.

Quote:
Except yourself, your family, your friends and - well - practically anyone if you stab someone for cash to get another dose, try to drive under the influence of drugs etcetera etcetera.


Those are not valid points, Bak

You hurt yourself? So? Sunbathing for too long without filter hurts you a lot too, makes your skin painful, makes it age way faster and is risky because of skin cancer. Do you see it forbidden? Some stuff hurts us, yes, but it's common knowledge that it does and it does not need a ban so we can notice that it is not healthy.

Your family? How? They feel bad because you do drugs? IMO, It's similar to "they feel bad because you're gay". It's your choice and they should learn to cope with who you are & what you do, not to force THEIR vision of perfect life on you. Drugs can't hurt them in any other way than shaking their little perfect vision of you and your future. Should we ban drugs because of it? if yes, why shouldn't we ban everything else that can come in between you and your family's opinion about you, like "being gay" ?

Friends? See above.

As for stabbing, well, yes you can, but you can also stab people for other things. Say, a new bike. Should bikes be prohibited because of potential people robbing others to get them?

Finally, the driving. Yes, it does affect it, indeed. So does drinking gasoline. Should gasoline be banned?

Pretty much no. I'm totally against such interventionism. There is no logical REASON to ban drugs. Because, well, you can get high with legal stuff, not classified as drugs (sniffing gas from a lighter also can get you high - ban lighters?). Which makes such selective banning instantly pointless. Either ban all, which is absurd, or not ban anything, since selective banning is illogical and ineffective.

Why isn't alcohol banned? A strong depressant, stronger than MDMA (which is classified as psychedelic, not depressant, but nvm) yet people are actually ENCOURAGED to drink it, via TV, advertisements and so on. It also makes people aggressive, kill people when driving drunk and it also destroys families. Why the hypocrisy?

Why one drug is considered good, the others - bad?


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baklava
baklava


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Mostly harmless
posted March 02, 2009 07:35 PM

Quote:
Your family? How? They feel bad because you do drugs? IMO, It's similar to "they feel bad because you're gay".

IYO.
However, in reality, it's quite different.
A drug addict affects the family much worse than even alcoholics do.
I've had the "luck" of living with two peaceful alcoholics, and it's icky enough. Let alone violent ones. And let alone drug addicts. Addiction is not just the problem of the individual. It's the problem of everyone around him.

Secondly, drugs are an expensive hobby. A junkie will eventually run out of money. To prevent that, in order not to die without another dose (because that's the feeling), he will seek out the cash in any way he can - through stealing from his own family or others, gambling, involving himself with crime etcetera. All of that quite directly affects his family and friends.

Finally, as for your final "alcohol is legal so you're a hypocrite!" argument...
Snorting a line of coke just isn't the same as drinking a pint of beer. I believe we can agree on that? Certainly, alcohol is bad if overused, but that's not necessary - I drink when I go out with my pals and I never got intoxicated. And even if I did, that does not cause the same level of addiction as drugs do. Sure, you need to be careful, but if you drink alcohol once, twice or thrice in your life, that does not mean you're an alcoholic. The idea is in having a measure. But try putting a spike into your vein a few times... There's no measure there, and addiction is imminent.

Comparing alcohol with drugs would be the same as comparing boxing and street knife fights. Sure, both are about kicking someone's arse, but boxing isn't meant to kill you - unless you're careless enough. Whereas in knife fights, someone's death is the idea.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


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Retired Hero
posted March 02, 2009 07:51 PM
Edited by Doomforge at 19:52, 02 Mar 2009.

Bak, remember, we're not discussing why drugs are or are not bad here, but the arguments about banning or not banning them.

Your vision of a drug addict is very "hollywoodish". As I said, most of them are so normal you'd barely recognize them. Let's not talk about the stereotypical heroin-addict-that-dies-tomorrow, showed by TV to shock people.

Snorting a "line" has in fact lower long-term effect on your body than alcohol, unless it's the killer drugs you want to talk about, like heroin or morphine.

I know you want to vindicate alcohol because you drink yourself. Everybody does, giving more and more incorrect arguments why "alcohol is not a drug", "drinking isn't the same as doing drugs" and "it's not as bad, I do it and nothing happens". Typical behavior. I don't want to indoctrinate you Bak, you're a smart guy, you know what's best for you. Still, don't forget that a) alcohol is as much of a drug as heroin and morphine, since it does exactly the same job, stimulating the CNS ; b) it _is_ taking drugs, whether we like it or not, c) it doesn't "effect you" because you take minimal doses, like taking a quarter of a pill of MDMA won't give anything described as "getting high" except of a slightly better mood; doesn't mean it's any better for your health, in long term means; After a couple of medical reports and analyzes, I become painfully aware that long-term usage of alcohol is in fact _worse_ than many "illegal" drugs, and that's not a joke. It's a sad fact. You don't need to believe me that alcohol IS worse than MDMA, and you probably won't, since it's socially accepted and all of that crap, but whatever.

Also, no, you're not right about "imminent addiction" after taking a shot or two. Another hollywood thingy, my friend. The movies, documentaries and anti-drug propaganda GREATLY exaggerates. Don't believe in everything you hear. Unless it's heroin, of course, which can cause super fast addiction.

Quote:
Comparing alcohol with drugs would be the same as comparing boxing and street knife fights. Sure, both are about kicking someone's arse, but boxing isn't meant to kill you - unless you're careless enough. Whereas in knife fights, someone's death is the idea.


Common argument of a casual drinker. I'm sorry, friend. It's not true. Alcohol = drug. I'm not calling YOU a hypocrite, but rather, governments that ban one drug and encourage another.

Never smoked, drank or took drugs myself, btw.
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TheDeath
TheDeath


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with serious business
posted March 02, 2009 08:42 PM

Quote:
Prohibition does nothing. NOTHING. People still do drugs, get addicted, become junkies. The only difference is that they buy crappy stuff that's contaminated with fillers rather than real drug, which triples the risk of a disease, and fuel up local drug lords. This is the ONLY difference between legal and illegal drugs. Because if you want it, you can buy it without one tiny bit of a problem, trust me. So, why not in shop, clean, and actually with a benefit to the country via taxes?
You're so contradicting yourself. What is the problem with drug lords then, if anyone "can get their hands on drugs"? This means the price is reasonable for everyone as well, like it would be if it were legal, so to speak.

You do not live in reality if you think it changes nothing. You overestimate people. Most, like you said, do NOT want to get into the trouble of getting it, unless they are influenced heavily by their "gang friends" or whatever "yo buddies" are.

Quote:
That's pretty funny. You assume they don't take them because it's illegal. Is that so? I'll tell you something. Most people don't give a flying **** whether it's illegal or not. See downloading games via torrent. It's illegal. Do people care? NO. Because it doesn't harm anybody in a DIRECT way. With drugs, it's the same. It's YOUR business. You don't harm anybody. Thus, people don't see it as crime. And thus, banning them is completely, utterly pointless, and your logic is simply flawed here
Oh yeah, Windows was cracked since day 1 of release and the statistics are somewhat like this (aproximations from a pie chart I've seen):

LICENSED Windows = 64% or so
UNLICENSED Windows = 25% or so

The rest is Linux + Apple + other mini OSes.

Changes nothing huh? Most people, especially here with Windows, are either plainly dumb (they don't know how to get a 'cracked' version) or simply think they WILL get into trouble (although the chances are small). Do not overestimate people. You are only influenced by those who get into the trouble and worth of all this, but this isn't reality statistics which matter for, uhm, a government.

For goodness sake think in NUMBERS, not in "do people take drugs? yes/no?".

Quote:
Common argument of a casual drinker. I'm sorry, friend. It's not true. Alcohol = drug. I'm not calling YOU a hypocrite, but rather, governments that ban one drug and encourage another.
I sorta agree, though they are different things. I would say both are ADDICTIONS, just as many other things are.

And in my opinion alcohol can be even more dangerous than drugs (although that depends on the drug in question), so if you ask for my opinion (non-hypocrite), I would ban alcohol and legalize the weak drugs (not those who are even more powerful/dangerous than alcohol, to those AROUND you, I don't care if you destroy yourself but don't influence others).


Also watch "Requiem For a Dream"
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baklava
baklava


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Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
posted March 02, 2009 08:51 PM

Quote:
I know you want to vindicate alcohol because you drink yourself.

This is as far from the truth as it can get.
My father and grandfather are alcoholics. Trust me, I'd rather live in a world without alcohol than with it. If that would mean that I don't get that pint of Guinness on Friday night, so be it. I never got drunk in my entire life, and I don't even plan to. Not even once, to see what it's like. Nor am I interested in that. What I do is drink a beer when I go out with my buddies, or a glass of wine when I go to a restaurant. I drank a heavy drink once or twice in my life, and didn't like it. So I don't think I can be categorized even as a casual drinker.

Pills don't have taste. Pills are taken solely in order to get high. People who drink to get drunk are exactly same. But taking one quarter of the pill is not the same as having a glass of wine.

I'm not a Hollywood man. I prefer to talk from experience. And I've seen and heard first hand stories of junkies. I also met quite a few. No, it's not nice. It's not nice when you see someone drunk either, but this is worse. You can't recognize them at first glance, but if you hang out with them for a while, it becomes more than obvious. Especially the more violent types.

Quote:
Also, no, you're not right about "imminent addiction" after taking a shot or two. Another hollywood thingy, my friend. The movies, documentaries and anti-drug propaganda GREATLY exaggerates. Don't believe in everything you hear. Unless it's heroin, of course, which can cause super fast addiction.

Read my post. I said "try putting a spike into your vein a few times", thinking about heroin. I could've mentioned other ways of taking it, but this one is simply the most obvious.
I know that cocaine and the like are lighter than heroin, but it's indeed hard for me to believe that they're more dangerous than alcohol. And by that, I mean regular alcohol, not stuff such as absinthe.

I'd appreciate it if you showed us those medical reports saying how alcohol is more dangerous than cocaine and other illegal drugs.
In equal measures, of course. Cause drinking three liters of brandy and two liters of tequila is probably worse than blowing a joint, yes.

Again, I do not vindicate alcohol. Quite the opposite, in fact. But it was banned in the USA, and things got... bad. Now that alcohol is legal, and drugs aren't, things are not so bad. If we can survive without legalizing the other evil, I don't see why we should legalize it. That's all.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
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Retired Hero
posted March 02, 2009 09:01 PM
Edited by Doomforge at 21:06, 02 Mar 2009.

Quote:
]You're so contradicting yourself. What is the problem with drug lords then, if anyone "can get their hands on drugs"? This means the price is reasonable for everyone as well, like it would be if it were legal, so to speak.


Are you joking? you don't distinct stolen goods and dirty money from legal goods, benefiting country?

You don't distinct honest merchant from a dirty smuggler with bloodstained hands?

What kind of question is that?

Quote:
You do not live in reality if you think it changes nothing. You overestimate people. Most, like you said, do NOT want to get into the trouble of getting it, unless they are influenced heavily by their "gang friends" or whatever "yo buddies" are.


Look, if someone doesn't care for his health, the stupid ticket from mr. policeman won't change a thing either.

If someone WANTS to take drugs, he will do it ANYWAY. No bans will help.


Quote:
For goodness sake think in NUMBERS, not in "do people take drugs? yes/no?".


No mate. Simply no. IMO, life wisdom is not about quoting charts and statistics, as I stated in Father's thread. It's about knowing different people, their stories, what caused them to act like that. Statistics tell you something and you thing "omg, people are so bad". But knowing their background, everything about that.. changes how you perceive them. Sometimes, you can even understand something that you would call gross or sick when not knowing the background story.

I don't want to think in numbers. I hope I never will.

Quote:
Also watch "Requiem For a Dream"


Great movie, one of my favorites, but it's not about drugs. It's about pursuing a dream that cannot be achieved, by wrong means.

Watch "Trainspotting" to see a hilarious take on drugs, btw.



Bak, my mate, I of course don't tell you you're ignorant or something. However, I've become interested in the subject of drugs many years ago, and I tried to reach multiple sources of information on that matter. I know a few junkies personally, too. I also read the polish junkie forum regularly (https://talk.hyperreal.info/) for some really great stories and information. If any of you are interested in the subject, try google translating those boards. Awesome read.

As for alcohol, I've seen how death of alcoholism looks like, and I've lost a big part of my family because of alcoholism, as I stated in the S&D thread. I'm still for keeping alcohol legal, and for making all drugs legal. Reason? I just hate hypocrisy. In every part of our lives.
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baklava
baklava


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Mostly harmless
posted March 02, 2009 09:17 PM

Alright, mate. But who knows. Maybe we're searching for hypocrisy in the wrong place. Or from the wrong side.
Maybe it's hypocrisy that we want to legalize all of it, but are against taking it; and all of that just to gain some tax money on the idiots who do take it.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


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posted March 02, 2009 09:19 PM

Well, we've already tried the "let's ban it" method. US did, I mean. Didn't work. Thus, there are only 2 options: leave it as it is or legalize
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baklava
baklava


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posted March 02, 2009 09:32 PM

Meh. It'll always be a matter of region.
This and that is legal in the Netherlands, this and that is legal in Texas, this and that is legal in Yemen... I doubt that a global understanding could really be reached.
People can't agree over the legal age for sex, let alone this.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


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posted March 02, 2009 09:42 PM

That's good. They might agree on 16 and I would be screwed.
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