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Heroes Community > Heroes 3.5 - WoG and Beyond > Thread: Heroes of Might & Magic III: Horn of the Abyss
Thread: Heroes of Might & Magic III: Horn of the Abyss [ This thread is 99 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 (63) 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 ]
DarkElfAxis
DarkElfAxis

Tavern Dweller
Desenchantee
posted January 11, 2013 07:21 PM

Background:
HEROES OF MIGHT AND MAGIC III: HORN OF THE ABYSS is, its current form, a mod crafted by the Russian-speaking Heroes community for Heroes of Might and Magic III: The Shadow of Death. It is the first fan mod in the history of the entire series to successfully add a mostly-stable, all-new town, without replacing any other factions in doing so.

HotA was initially announced at Heroes Community in May 2008 (see the archived post below this one), and was tentatively scheduled for a release within that year, but this estimate was pushed forward several times due to various technical difficulties. The mod gained a very considerable following, with this thread alone receiving hundreds of thousands of views from enthusiasts, and countless comments.

The mod promised three new factions would be added to H3, with a new one coming in each of the three global versions: the pirate-focused Cove town, the snowy Kronwerk/Crownwork populated by Dwarves and Giants, and the Cathedral, a dark antithesis to the Castle town led by inquisitors. In the spirit of a classic expansion pack, new heroes, artifacts, objects, terrains, spells, gameplay and features were intended for inclusion.

A sudden dispute within the HotA development team significantly crippled its progress, and for months on end it seemed certain that it would never be released. A disgruntled insider leaked a bugged beta version, which included a playable yet crash-prone first version of the Cove town, but nothing official immediately followed. However, in 2011, the team regrouped in a redoubled effort to finish version 1.0, and triumphed by the (very) end of the year in delivering the Cove, Heroes of Might and Magic III's de facto tenth town (with a small campaign).

---

Active projects:
Work is apparently ongoing on version 2.0, and Docent Picolan (project leader) has asserted hopes that the next build will support WoG's ERA engine for scripting. The status of the Crownwork and Cathedral towns is a bit uncertain, but Aleee states that support for the Cove in the map editor is a top priority at least. I quote: "I'd say that it's not HotA that was released, but Cave. And a small campaign. All those features you heard about are still planned, but they're for next builds."


Nowhere do I see "english version is the next project on the table". And saying "I guess so ..." does not equal "yes there is definately going to be an english version".

They just posted this here, to give us a feel and see what the community thinks. To build up interest or inform players of what's on their tables.

They didn't "promise" as someone above mentions. They just posted a few previews as this mod is only for russian or polish players. We just have to accept that. They won't change their plans just because we ask them to.

Do I enjoy the HotA expansion and would love to play it in English? Yes. Will I ever? No. Do I begin to accept this and try to forget of all those campaigns I can't play in english, so I am not reminded of what I'm missing? Yes.

It's been 63 pages, pippo! Give it a rest, already! We're never going to have that english patch in our lifetimes. Yes, admire the game all you wish, watch videos of people who understand it playing it on iutoob. But give up on thinking you are playing it in english, yourself.

The sooner we all understand this, the sooner we will begin to build an english addon for ourselves. Just look at that background for a bit, with all prejudice and preconceptions shut down for a bit:

"HotA was initially announced at Heroes Community in May 2008, and was tentatively scheduled for a release within that year, but this estimate was pushed forward several times due to various technical difficulties."

Translation: Even in a year it was impossible to finish, despite being professionals, because of errors and lack of team spirit or team work. So it was post poned over and over and over again!!!!. I don't know about the rest of you, but this english seems pretty clear to me.

They only finished releasing it then because their original post from 2008 showed promise and support from players. That's all!

"The mod promised three new factions would be added to H3, with a new one coming in each of the three global versions: the pirate-focused Cove town, the snowy Kronwerk/Crownwork populated by Dwarves and Giants, and the Cathedral, a dark antithesis to the Castle town led by inquisitors."

Translation: Five years later and we only have the first faction of Cove. Not even in english, but in a language we don't speak.

This means what, 10 years for Kronwerk and Cathedral with their affiliate 1+ year to each for english patches? I do not have that kind of patience.

It's obvious there is no reason for them to finish an english version, it's not on their first to do list, despite it being on ours. So if we made it OUR to-do list, the first on that list, we would have more luck at completing it faster.

This has many advantages, like knowing the progress yourself, and seeing other players like you give daily activity reports, so you know exactly how far ahead they're moving. Or working with more people in an open team, which means less work for everyone, and more chances to work round the clock, when others are resting you're working, when others are working you're resting etc. We are all very devoted to playing it in english, so our focus is to finish it for the english players like us, because we know exactly how they feel and how badly they want to play it and how soon or fast.

We can fix all those glitches that cause some technical errors due to platforms being chosen differently by the team. So we can address those compatibility issues ourselves, since we start with them from the base up. Which means less correction or bugs to sift through. Only in english so no need to bother with translations in any languages.

Or you can wait another 5 years to play Kronwerk in russian. You deal the cards ...
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Nothing was certain in the Netherworld ... nothing except rape. Rape and TROGLODYTES !!!

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perinajbara
perinajbara


Hired Hero
posted January 11, 2013 08:19 PM

Learning Russian could be easier and more productive, you should have that in mind.

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DarkElfAxis
DarkElfAxis

Tavern Dweller
Desenchantee
posted January 11, 2013 08:48 PM

Quote:
Learning Russian could be easier and more productive, you should have that in mind.


It cannot. Just think if people wised up 5 years ago, when this was first announced, and knew they wouldn't be playing an english version now in 2013, would they still have waited?

Or would they have created an english addon themselves, instead? Maybe we would have had an english game by now, if the players wouldn't be so naive.

If's not easier, and it's not productive. A russian community only has little resources or time at their disposal. Their main interest is to make the game in russian or polish for people closer to them. England is halfway around the world from their lands!

But we are an international community, from many countries, with better english skills, thus able to write it faster than they can translate it in english. We have many more resources, and time to work on the other side of the world, while people on our side of the world is resting. So we have numerous advantages already, over an all-national, same country team of only 22~ people.

If we can find 50 people on our team, already our work will be twice as fast to be completed. That's 2 years and 6 months. Since we can work continously beyond time zones, some will be working while others are resting, so no fatigue or large pauses in the game. This means more continuity which makes working on it easier. This means 1 year and 3 months. We will only be writing it in english for the international community that understands it like we do. We will have more creativity and ideas, and writers or programmers or diverse skills or different talents from over the world. This can mean 7 months of total work between all of us, to finish a version of the game. To Kronwerk's 5 years in waiting to see it in russian, but unable to play it.

We won't have a forum / website to run like they do, or write it in russian then translate in english, which is highly time consuming. So take out however long they spend running that forum, and you see we have only time advantages over them.

They've already had difficulties within their original team so their moral is lower than ours, and they feel a sort of boredom from working on it now. But we have fresh enthusiasm. We're allegedly waiting for an english patch to Cove as we speak, so we have even a higher motivation to make it ourselves, since in addition to that, we could play the english version of Cove as well. That is, if you actually believe it will happen ever, and it wasn't just forgotten or abandoned for something else.

The hidden advantage is that we can create an original faction with original creatures which are our own player designs, and have everyone contribute on how to improve it for everyone else. Big countries have no creativity or talent. Usually because they're outside of Europe, so they are not exposed to different cultures or mentalities, to evolve their cultural awareness. It's monotonous to have your entire life shaped by boring life in a giant country.

But if we base our game from cultures that are unknown to the past two national-minded teams (us / russia), and form an international open minded form of game, this would allow more possibilities and advantages. Why limit your team to only people from your country? That seems slow and boring and narrow minded. But if people from over the world work together, we will make a more complex game, with personalized strategy. To make gameplay less monotonous. For me the idea of "build building" "hire creature" and "repeat weekly" seems worked to death. The game is evolving just like in Heroes 4, so we should evolve the strategy as well, to player's needs. If it's too simple, there is no intellectual challenge. No replayability. No interest.

And considering we are players from over the world, it's impossible we learn a new foreign language. Since that requires personal effort from each of us, and working fully alone. Whereas the game creation idea allows us to work easily together, and do a little work for the greater good, thus nothing is purely an individual effort.

Why should 50 people focus on learning a new language foreign to them, when they can focus on creating something they don't need new languages for?

Also, we'd have to learn a new alphabet as well. Chirilic being twice as long as the normal alphabet so much harder unless you learned it from childhood or something. I have no patience to learn new alphabets as well as new languages.

But game design seems to have a lot of repetitive patterns, and it's never a single, individual concentrated effort which tires your mind out, but always a light effort shared by the group in equal measure.

Your idea is to suggest 50 people lifting a rock 50 kg heavy to the top of the mountain. My idea is 50 people going to the top of the mountain, and pulling together on ropes to drag each stone one by one, to the peak. Which means everyone is only pulling 1 kg by sharing the effort with everyone by rope weight, then 1 kg, then another, and thus divide their workload by the numbers of people working in the same direction.

If you really think your idea is good, go ahead learn a new alphabet and new language, so you can play the game, then wait another 5 years for Kronwerk faction, then another 5 for Cathedral. I'm not stopping you, I'm encouraging you to do what's easiest for you. Good luck with that.
____________
Nothing was certain in the Netherworld ... nothing except rape. Rape and TROGLODYTES !!!

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DarkElfAxis
DarkElfAxis

Tavern Dweller
Desenchantee
posted January 11, 2013 11:55 PM
Edited by DarkElfAxis at 00:27, 12 Jan 2013.

No one said anything about the first release. Just the english version which is now 5 years running late .... late .... later.



"wasting time on typing this amount of pointless text"

Isn't that what game development is, basically? So the HotA team have just been wasting 5 years typing amounts of pointless text? That's rather nice of you to say ...

Altough if I were to voice the thought of english speaking players, it served no point to us, since we can't play anything. So to us, yes. All that typing was pointless as you say.

I'm sure people in russia and poland will enjoy Cove, and possibly Kronwerk and Cathedral, if those weren't cancelled yet. Or even Horn of the Abyss, if it's ever completed.

Just as I'm sure people from across the world will enjoy the player made, english version that we should do ourselves. After all, if all of their core programming was just one person, then that's all we need too.

Except we don't need a programmer. We need a player and a true fan of the game, who only played this game in english, so we don't narrow the playability of the game to just one country. If such a player exist, we're good to go. No need to waste time on a forum, writing or maintaining it, just all work on making the game itself, for the fans like us.

A game doesn't need to be professional in the sense of having cold machine like talent of machine people with machine hearts. It only needs to be professional in the way it adds creative input for everyday players like those on this forum, and professional in having team work and having the same noble goals in mind. Only then will the outcome be truly professional. The players know what's best for us. Not the programmers, who are outsiders and have other things to enjoy much more than playing games.

They're only doing this as a side thing. We'd be doing it for the heroic spirit of Heroes of Might and Magic. To play a game we actually helped create, and we really like from our hearts, and that we will share with other fans of the game.

That is all.
____________
Nothing was certain in the Netherworld ... nothing except rape. Rape and TROGLODYTES !!!

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fred79
fred79


Promising
Legendary Hero
posted January 12, 2013 01:51 AM

dude, there are people all over the world doing their own thing with heroes 3, among many other games. while a translator that works for any language is a good idea(for all sides), jumping on people's backs will get nothing done. you've stated your case. how about working toward it?

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adriancat
adriancat


Famous Hero
Protector Of The Peace
posted January 12, 2013 08:19 AM

I really think HotA makers should focus on releasing the english version ASAP or the project will loose support by most of the fans since I am sure 90% of them are english speakers or know english better than russian.

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perinajbara
perinajbara


Hired Hero
posted January 12, 2013 08:50 AM

Is this a thread about HotA, or the rebellion against HotA? Perhaps a new thread should be made, entitled: The Horn Of The Abyss English Patch Rebellion.

The new version is great, I love the new creature banks, especially how they made the Heroes II town building perfectly fit the Heroes III environment. My best compliments to the HotA team.

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Corribus
Corribus

Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
posted January 12, 2013 10:14 AM
Edited by Corribus at 10:14, 12 Jan 2013.

As mentioned in the feedback thread, there has been a lot of off-topic garbage posted here lately.  Stick to the topic of the mod, and let's keep insults to a minimum.  Otherwise I will close the thread and apply some temporary silences.
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Moderating the OSM WOG forum is like being pecked to death by chickens.

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zmudziak22
zmudziak22


Adventuring Hero
posted January 12, 2013 10:27 AM

So, if will be supported ERA, map editor should support H3, H3 AB, H3 SOD, H3 WOG and H3 HOTA map file formats. The hidden conditions for victory and lose should also be include. Victory: defeat all monsters, survive x days/months, acquire/transport artifact even with enemy defeated, lose: lose 2 or more heroes in single game, time limit and losing hero, time limit with lose castle or lose hero and castle.

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DarkElfAxis
DarkElfAxis

Tavern Dweller
Desenchantee
posted January 12, 2013 10:45 AM

Quote:
Ok, guys - we're not worth it. Better to live our own miserable lives rather than annoy Ubermenschen with pointless explanations. They just know better.


What the hobbit said.


Quote:
Game developers actually worked hard on HotA and we can enjoy the game even if it's in Russian. I don't enjoy reading your posts. You came here saying someone should make an English patch, and now you're saying that people should leave HotA community with you and start their own version,  which is really not cool.


They didn't work for english speaking players, that's for sure. They did work hard, but not for us. I can't enjoy anything, since I have no clue what those stories each day in the Cove Campaign is telling. It's like reading a storybook without seeing the pages. Impossible to enjoy.

I'm sure they worked for nationalistic interests, such as allowing people in their big country play it all they wish. But we don't live in their country, so we're not on their target player list.

If you can enjoy the game even in a foreign language in a foreign alphabet go ahead. Enjoy it right now, why are wasting posts aimed at me? Enjoy it already! This discussion doesn't involve you, since you're not disgruntled or something.

No, the HotA community is not defined by the game itself, but by the idea of the game itself. We don't have a game, since it's not in english, which means we only have the idea. That idea can stay in our heads, motivating us to make a better game, in english. It will only be a true community in the sense that only the players get to decide what's incorporated in the new game, instead of 20 KGB agents.

I'm sure the russian team of HotA know what's best for russian players. Just like we, the international heroes community know what's best for ourselves, the players from over the world. We can design a game that's better for us to play, since only we have our gameplay experience, and know how to evolve it in the right direction.

I never said to leave any community. They can still have fun on this thread looking at pictures or gif animations. I may just do that myself, why not? I did say we should become a real heroes community, since the game could be even better than good, if only we, the players who are from different countries across the world, would design it. Suited better to our gameplay requirements.

If you don't even understand that, you need to reread everything I've posted, thrice, until you may understand it correctly. Or if you don't enjoy reading them, stop reading my posts. I never gave you permission to, so stop whining already. I wasn't typing for you, or even mentioned you, at all.

Quote:
I really think HotA makers should focus on releasing the english version ASAP or the project will loose support by most of the fans since I am sure 90% of them are english speakers or know english better than russian.


While I fully agree with you, I doubt they will change their half a decade plans just for us, focusing on a tiny english patch when they have much more on their boards, if the background setting was accurate as they revealed to us.

Loose means "widening". You were looking for "lose". Which is lost, and not loosened.

Do you have any idea what you're asking? It's like telling people in the new world to write a game in russian. Despite them knowing only english as their base language. The game might be great, but we have to console ourselves in finding out they may have other plans for the game, which is theirs and not ours. If they decide it's more important to supply their national fans with Kronwerk or Cathedral in russian, who are we to say otherwise?

This thread was for asking opinions on their project, not suggesting they should make one up for us in our own native language, or even in english. So it's clearly off topic when we focus only on the english patch immaterial ideal, and forget that this was never an english project in the first place. Our contribution is strictly passive here.

The original HoMM3 was in english, because it's designer team spoke english.
The Horn of the Abyss game is in russian, because it's designer team speaks russian.
The only way we will have something similar (but improoved with real player suggestions and experiences) to this game, but in english, is to find international players who play it in english or understand it.

Sure it would be easier if we could finish the HotA ourselves, but I doubt a national team would waste their work with the international community. That's not how national teams work, it's not how they play. Their work belongs to them, not to the rest of everybody.

So starting up from scratch is our best solution, as it was 5 years ago when this non-english addon was announced. Unless you can think of a better alternative?

Quote:
Is this a thread about HotA, or the rebellion against HotA? Perhaps a new thread should be made, entitled: The Horn Of The Abyss English Patch Rebellion.

The new version is great, I love the new creature banks, especially how they made the Heroes II town building perfectly fit the Heroes III environment. My best compliments to the HotA team.


What rebellion? I am doing exactly what the original poster said. Examining their HotA game, while not being able to play it in english. Do I like it? Of course. Do I regret never getting to play it in english so I can enjoy the campaigns? Obviously.

Do I get over it, and move towards having an english version of Heroes? Yes.

I wasn't telling you to stop saying what you like in HotA. You're free to share any and all opinions on it. My experience is limited, since I can't play it in a foreign alphabet/language. You'll excuse me if that leaves me a bit short for words.


____________
Nothing was certain in the Netherworld ... nothing except rape. Rape and TROGLODYTES !!!

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Ayreon
Ayreon


Famous Hero
posted January 12, 2013 11:28 AM

Dear DarkElfAxis,

You've made your point now. Even though the HotA team promises us an English version, you believe it will never be here. You believe we better make 'our' own addon in English, which is fine by me. Why don't you start a new topic, display some ideas and recruit a team? The more projects in the making, the better.

No need for more walls of text. It is clear now what you want to say. Leave those that do want to wait for a possibly never arriving HotA wait for it.

You can hardly blame people for not taking you too serious if you have no ideas to convince people with and profile yourself as somewhat of a know-it-all.

Now let's take this discussion out of the 'Horn of the Abyss'-topic and let's cease polluting the positive energy they emit with their incredible work, even though it's in Russian.
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LordHades
LordHades

Tavern Dweller
posted January 12, 2013 11:35 AM

I think we should be more respectful for the work of the HoTA Team. They are doing this in their free time and nobody pays them for that. They are trying hard to give us the BEST quality, worthy of this legendary game. I am 110% behind the HoTA Team, I want to thank you for your work and apologize in the name of others.

I confess I haven't played the Russian version, because I want to enjoy the Heroes experience at its best. And this is what they are trying to give us...

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CyberControler
CyberControler

Tavern Dweller
posted January 12, 2013 01:41 PM

downloaded 1.2 this morning and was able to play it for about five minutes before my kids started needing my attention, and I have to say its a great addon and a good improvement from 1.0. keep up the great work guys.
____________

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Corribus
Corribus

Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
posted January 12, 2013 05:34 PM

I have cleaned the worst of the flaming, off-topic banter, and other general detritus out of the last several pages of the thread.  Please stay on topic and keep in mind that there's no need for name-calling.
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Moderating the OSM WOG forum is like being pecked to death by chickens.

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SquigPie
SquigPie


Adventuring Hero
posted January 12, 2013 07:49 PM

DarkElfAxis, think you've read too much Ayn Rand.

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Siegfried
Siegfried


Famous Hero
posted January 13, 2013 06:24 AM
Edited by Siegfried at 11:38, 15 Jan 2013.

Just some remarks.

For me, currently HotA is pointless. Not only because it's in russian, and i don't understand russian and cannot read it, but also because it does not support WoG. O.k., that's for me. But on the other hand i really do appreciate the work the HotA team does. This is a very promising work, and maybe (hopefully) some day it will be useful for me.

Now, even if that would never happen, i didn't spend any money on it, so what would i have lost? Complaining about that is like me complaining of not having a chance to smoke a cuban cigar, since a) cuba is too far away and b) i'm a non-smoker. It may be nice, but i do not loose anything if i never have one. So if i never have the chance to try HotA, then so what?

It would be different if i would participate in the HotA development. This would be kind of investment. Then i could expect having some advantage from it some day. But since i don't (i can't translate russian to english, f.ex.), i can't expect anything. If one day it will be useful for me, fine. I probably will enjoy it much. But there is no right whatsoever getting some advantage from it somewhen.

There is just 1 thing i do expect: If there is any problem with WoG, and i ask for help, then "take HotA" is not an appropriate answer. Not as long as it is of no use for me. And that's all.

So please keep on working, and hopefully some day it will be useful for me. Until then i'm taking a look at it here and then, but until then i'll stick to WoG.

Maybe one addendum, please read very carefully. Developing a russian only version is, well, i would not call it nationalistic. A good community is something nice, but ignoring all others is somewhat ignorant. The US-Americans are very well known for this thinking. For US-Americans, the world ends at the US border. Outside there are barbarians. "Hic sunt dragones", as was written on ancient maps. They will never understand that there is an existing high-level culture not speaking english. They simply cannot imagine that. But the H3 community should be international. So for any part of the H3 community, and if HotA is part of that community, for HotA as well, this international view is important. So i indeed think translating HotA to english is a very important task. Chapeau for the guy who does it. This is more important than new graphics and more important that bugfixes.

Making it work with WoG is not that important, since WoG is not the base for the community. It's just for me personally a precondition.

Edit: For clarifications look here
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Salamandre
Salamandre


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted January 13, 2013 07:09 AM

Russians have their own HoTA forum, while HC has to stick it in wog section, thus the confusion. From what they said it is meant to be an add on to AB/SoD, and all work was done by reverse engineering, hex editing and whatever I don't know yet. For sure they were right to start and complete it this way, seeing how the 10th town always failed in WoG.

HoTA is a lucky example of very high standards, both graphical and technical. Something we don't see often around, and which should successfully inspire further works in VCMI or Era.

Because it is an add-on, I would recall that SoD has a few editor improvements over AB/ROE and I would love to see such things in HoTA as well. Vanilla has still great potential and does not need wog to create interesting maps and adventures, but if several annoying bugs as creature spawn (editor option on/off),leveling after 74, the >32xxx stacks problem, frozen AI and resources overload were fixed, then I would say the game is revived.

The reason I asked the thread to be closed until english version is out is obvious: there is nothing more to add right now, and the delayed english version invites all internet trolls  to speculate on whatever HoTA makers are nationalistic or not, or other stupid remarks and provocations.
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MrKafu
MrKafu


Hired Hero
posted January 13, 2013 08:51 AM

Quote:
New video from 1.2 version.

http://youtu.be/nNOnWOOxgGQ


The released verison which is shown in the video has a working Random Map Generator.

More Info :
http://translate.google.ro/translate?sl=pl&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.vault.acidcave.net%2Ffile.php%3Fid%3D214

Download Link :
http://www.vault.acidcave.net/download.php?id=214

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Warmonger
Warmonger


Promising
Legendary Hero
fallen artist
posted January 13, 2013 09:53 AM

It's amazing, original working RMG with new factions and objects! No more wogification or other mess.

You're still ahead of us by few months
____________

The future of Heroes 3 is here!

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted January 13, 2013 09:56 AM

Probably, but when VCMI will be ready, you will be ahead by a few towns.
____________

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