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Fauch
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posted December 11, 2010 04:47 PM |
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because the ego is the cause of psychological suffering.
of course, I guess you will say it is a cause of joy too. but it's often a lot of frustation and suffering for a short moment of joy. and that's usually in the best case.
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mvassilev
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posted December 11, 2010 08:36 PM |
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Ego isn't the cause of psychological suffering. Uncertainty and not living in accord with one's values is what causes that. Ego definitely doesn't cause frustration.
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DagothGares
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No gods or kings
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posted December 11, 2010 11:23 PM |
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Quote:
Ego definitely doesn't cause frustration.
Unless your self-image and expectations don't match reality.
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mvassilev
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posted December 11, 2010 11:31 PM |
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That's why ego alone isn't enough, although it's certainly necessary to living a good life. You also have to live in reality.
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Fauch
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posted December 12, 2010 01:35 AM |
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Edited by Fauch at 02:09, 12 Dec 2010.
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Ego isn't the cause of psychological suffering. Uncertainty and not living in accord with one's values is what causes that.
Krishnamurti defined those as egocentric activities.
you are uncertain because you don't want to admit that you don't know.
and when it comes to value, let's say you are greedy, and making efforts to become generous. you may give all you want, as long as you think you have to be generous, you are still greedy, because, obviously, if you were really generous, you wouldn't have to discipline yourself to act generously. you would be without thinking about it. thus, you are just a greedy person trying to give yourself and other people the image of generosity.
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That's why ego alone isn't enough, although it's certainly necessary to living a good life.
what do you mean with "living a good life"?
if you mean succeeding socially, then yes, I believe it may indeed be necessary. you have to compete for everything now, and to compete, you must be egocentric.
if you mean living a happy life, then I don't think it is necessary.
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DagothGares
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No gods or kings
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posted December 12, 2010 02:14 AM |
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It's kind of weird how "Individualist" = "Nietzschean" to most people.
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Fauch
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posted December 12, 2010 02:53 AM |
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? I haven't read Nietzsche yet
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mvassilev
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posted December 12, 2010 06:45 AM |
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Fauch:
How is uncertainty even remotely egocentric? And it's not the same as admitting you don't know. There's a difference between uncertainty and not knowing. To give a somewhat loose (and imperfect) example of uncertainty, it's when you are unsure, but have at least a somewhat reasonable expectation of what something could be. Not knowing is more like, well, not knowing.
And I don't understand what you mean by your greedy person example. If he values his own wealth as a direct source of pleasure (which is highly unlikely), then he's acting against his values by being generous. If he's generous, then he's not greedy.
And by "living a good life", I mean just that - living a happy life. And if you have no ego, you can't value anything, and without values, you cannot be happy.
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1910
Known Hero
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posted December 12, 2010 10:46 AM |
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Yeah okay. Now talking about the ACTUAL DAMN TOPIC...
Just 18 days until I can finally meet my girlfriend face to face. I'm sure a lot of you knew that we hadn't met before. I had tried to in July but that is when I got sent back by immigration. She lives far away and all but I'm absolutely fine with that. It sort of makes this relationship a hell of a lot stronger considering the distance, sticking together, immigration experience and whatnot. I'm sure a lot of you won't understand but yeah, just felt like telling you all.  . Anyway, she'll be staying here for 3 months. I'm so damn excited.
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War-overlord
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Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted December 12, 2010 01:06 PM |
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I find it strange how people can be in a romantic relationship with people they have never seen. I'm sure you connect on some other level, where face-to-face communication is not required and such.
But I still find it strange. Perhaps it has more to do with me and how I can barely connect at all with people.
I wish you'll have a happy time with your girl, 1910. Being apart for so long, those 3 weeks you'll have to bear still will undoubtably be worth it.
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1910
Known Hero
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posted December 12, 2010 01:41 PM |
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It's hard to explain really. It's like people who used to write to each other, then used to email and text with one another, this is just another stage where I can actually see her. I know exactly what she's like so when we do meet face to face, it won't be too different, obviously we'd be able to do all the other things we can't do online such as see each other face to face, touch one another, hug, kiss and all that. Yeah, the 2 and a half weeks will be tough but it will, like you said, be worth it in the end. I'm sure it'll fly past though and we'll finally be together.
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Fauch
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posted December 12, 2010 06:47 PM |
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Edited by Fauch at 19:01, 12 Dec 2010.
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well, but I hope you didn't imagine too many things, or you might be disappointed
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Fauch:
How is uncertainty even remotely egocentric?
I think it is better to put a link to a text of the author :
here
though, it is easier to understand if you know his work well. I still have trouble explaining it myself, the problem with values is easier to see, for me.
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And I don't understand what you mean by your greedy person example.
here
all the links
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mvassilev
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posted December 12, 2010 10:04 PM |
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But that which is truly sacred is beyond the measure of time; it is not to be found within the field of the known.
This man is disgustingly evil.
Most of what he says is empty nonsense that doesn't mean anything. The few things that are coherent are wrong. And none of the links you posted answered my questions.
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JollyJoker
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posted December 12, 2010 10:30 PM |
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Quote:
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But that which is truly sacred is beyond the measure of time; it is not to be found within the field of the known.
This man is disgustingly evil.
Most of what he says is empty nonsense that doesn't mean anything. The few things that are coherent are wrong. And none of the links you posted answered my questions.
Evil? What's your problem?
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mvassilev
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posted December 12, 2010 10:40 PM |
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Because he teaches the opposite of what is right. Someone following his teachings will either fail and be unhappy, or succeed and become a living case of suicide - someone who walks around and breathes, but has no values and no goals. Not to mention he's just mistaken about some things, like pursuing virtue:Quote:
we must find out what it is to be virtuous, without the cultivation of virtue. I think the two things lead in entirely different directions. A man who cultivates virtue is all the time thinking about himself; he is everlastingly concerned about his own progress, his personal improvement, which is still the activity of ‘me’, the self, the ego; and this activity obviously has nothing whatever to do with virtue, which is a state of being and not becoming.
You can't be virtuous without pursuing virtue. It's something you have to learn to have. Otherwise, men would either be pillagers or scared sheep. And virtue is all about the self - how best to live a happy life. Rationality, courage, inquisitiveness - all of those virtues bring pleasure to the self, to the ego, and those things don't come out of nowhere. And if there is to be happiness, it can only be found in the field of the known - otherwise, it cannot exist.
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Fauch
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posted December 13, 2010 02:48 AM |
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he would have asked you "how do you know what is right?"
the fact is he didn't want people to follow his teachings. he wanted people to question them and find for themselves.
someone following his teaching can't fail. you can fail only if you have a goal. and his teaching was to act without having a goal.
and what causes unhappiness? isn't it the fact to not manage to reach your goal? you could say that someone is unhappy because he has no goal, but then that would mean he actually has one, that he hasn't reached yet, to find a goal.
you can't be virtuous as long as you pursue virtue. if you were virtuous, why would you pursue it? can you learn virtue?
then you will not spontaneously act virtuously, it will be the result of thinking and will strengten your ego. of course, from an outside point of view, the result will be the same, but for the one doing the action, there is a huge difference. Sister Emmanuelle, in her autobiography said she knew that fact well. for all of us, she is a model of virtue, but she knew her motivations weren't always virtuous.
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all of those virtues bring pleasure to the self
yes, and that's the problem, it's like a drug, the ego needs his pleasure, but do you have to identify yourself to your ego?
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And if there is to be happiness, it can only be found in the field of the known - otherwise, it cannot exist.
the problem is to define happiness. we search pleasure in the field of the known, but is pleasure happiness?
do happiness appear when unhappiness disappear? some people say, if we were never unhappy, we wouldn't recognize happiness, so that would be like always being unhappy? or maybe we are never completely unhappy or happy, but always a bit of the too? Primo Levi said some interesting things on the subject in "If this is a man"
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mvassilev
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posted December 13, 2010 04:34 AM |
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his teaching was to act without having a goal
So it's worse than that of an animal, because it teaches self-destruction. All actions must have goals at some level, and how successful an action is depends on how it helps attain that goal. It is nonsense to speak of action without a goal, as then it ceases to be action and becomes twitching akin to that of an epileptic.
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what causes unhappiness? isn't it the fact to not manage to reach your goal?
The sources of unhappiness can both be external and internal. Being tortured or lack of something can cause unhappiness. So can a life without values. Sure, not reaching a goal can be a source of unhappiness, but it's nothing compared to the unhappiness of not having a goal.
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can you learn virtue?
Yes. If one grows up properly, without being corrupted by self-destructive immorality (whether it be drugs, religion, altruism, or nihilism), then one will probably grow up to be a virtuous person. One will learn to understand the happiness that comes from acting properly and possessing rationality, independence, integrity, etc. But one first has to act that way first, and perhaps even taught that it is good.
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do you have to identify yourself to your ego?
Who am I if not that?
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is pleasure happiness?
I'd say happiness is a form of pleasure - happiness is mild long-term emotional pleasure.
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Aculias
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posted December 13, 2010 04:42 AM |
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I said it once & i said it quite a few times to you MVass.
You read way too many books. Study about certain subjects of emotions.
Reading about feelings & love is so much different then actually knowing about the feeling.
You would not know, You are still in school & that is a good thing, dont get me wrong.
I love school as well, but there is a difference between reading about it & feeling it.
Being academically smart does not make your answers legit in this subject.
Your answers are almost comical! Like listening to a Biologist about the whole analogy of football players & the whole sport lol.
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mvassilev
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posted December 13, 2010 04:50 AM |
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1910
Known Hero
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posted December 13, 2010 09:09 AM |
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He's disagreeing with basically the way that you see love. That's where he's pointing out that, in his mind, you're wrong and I also happen to agree with him.
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