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| Thread: I'm finally done filling out my college applications! |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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TheDeath
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posted January 08, 2009 03:33 PM |
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I disagree, of course.  The reason it seems like there are more "exceptions to the rules" in chemistry/biology, is because the rules are more complicated. But if you're not up to the challenge, stick to physics.
I was hoping you could enlighten me a bit about that. But to me it seems like you have to memorize a lot, and even if there's logic, you still have to look up most things. Like a computer with a very poor processor power but a LOT of cache/memory (for lookup tables)
But of course I could very well be wrong, I'm not into it, you know better 
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Corribus
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posted January 08, 2009 05:18 PM |
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Most people feel that way because their exposure to chemistry is general or organic chemistry courses taken in college. And in those classes it's true, it's mostly memorization. That's because the rules of chemistry are based on the rules of quantum mechanics, which most people at that stage of their education are not properly equipped to understand because of the way curricula are set up.
If you were to take a real physical chemistry course, you'd find that it has no memorization at all, which is why so many people have difficulty with it. A lot of people come to pchem out of organic chemistry and expect just another course with 4000 flash cards, and then they get the crap kicked out of them on the tests because in pchem you actually need to learn the concepts.
But, with a proper understanding of the fundamentals of quantum chemistry, all those things in general and organic chemistry actually start to make sense, and you realize that you can predict the properties of chemicals and reactions rather than just memorizing them. It's quite a revelation, actually, when you finally get it.
To be honest, I quite dislike the way chemistry curricula are set up, because it seems pointless to me to force someone to spend two years memorizing stuff that they don't really understand, and then teach them the fundamentals afterwards. The reason for this backwards approach is (1) historical/chronological, (2) because the curriculem is at least partly set up around premedical and liberal arts programs and (3) because academia is about 3 centuries behind the modern world. But that's getting into a whole separate can of worms.
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TheDeath
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posted January 08, 2009 05:24 PM |
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Yeah perfectly true that the whole system is backwards, it should be other way around. Unfortunately I don't have any experience with a "good" chemistry class but I take your word for it.
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phoenixreborn
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posted January 08, 2009 05:49 PM |
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Don't do it. Become a professor I mean. If you want to know why, I can elaborate.
My understanding is that you are a high school teacher and not a professor. I'm curious, what do you mean?
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Corribus
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posted January 08, 2009 07:02 PM |
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My understanding is that you are a high school teacher and not a professor. I'm curious, what do you mean?
Actually, I'm neither. Up until about 2 years ago, I intended to become a professor. Until I got absolutely disgusted and jaded with the system.
On the surface, being a tenured professor seems like a sweet gig. Almost unmatched job security, summers off, complete autonomy to follow whatever research you want, and financially some people do pretty well.
But it's really not the case, and beyond that, the things you have to do to get there aren't worth the rewards. For one thing, the money is completely soft, meaning you spend all your time begging people to pay your salary. Most of the funds go to big fishes, making it very hard to get started. As a starting professor (before tenure), you work easily 100 hours per week to make absolutely nothing. Your college friends are all out making 6 figures and having great lives while you're struggling to bring home 50-60K (and you don't even make that until you're in your 30s - you don't even want to know what kind of crap life you're going to have in your 20s). Forget having a family until you're 40. If you're a nice person, you don't stand a chance. To get ahead, you pretty much have to stomp on and use everybody who works for you. Because all your time is spent writing (and reviewing) grants, you actually have no time to enjoy your research autonomy - all the actual interesting work gets done by your slaves, er, grad students, who you have to beat into the ground in order to be successful. Worst of all, your success is really out of your hands - everything is publication based and there are more conflicts of interest there and elsewhere than you can count.
And don't even get me started on being a grad student or post-doc. Take a minute to actually walk through a research university and talk to some people. They may seem happy to a casual observer, but take it from someone who has spent almost a decade there - very few of them are actually happy.
Bah, ignore my bitter ramblings. When you boil it down, science today is, like everything else, all about money. But it's not based on the principles of a fair, capitalist system. It's also never likely to change, because the system is virtually immune to regulation (and the supposed regulating agencies, whose power over private institutions are tenuous at best, are just as bad and/or underfunded) and the people who have the power have no motivation to change it.
I guess in sum I would say that I would discourage people from becoming a professor (and academia in general) for the following reasons:
(1) Given how many years of training it requires, the pay is absolutely terrible. When you're young, you don't think of it this way, but to become a professor you lose 8-10 years of earning potential. Your colleagues are out earning money, investing in stocks and retirement, and you're barely scraping by. Even if you ultimately become a successful professor and make 150-200K a year, you've still lost those 8-10 years. Even if you get a job where you ultimately make less (doubtful), if you start earning and investing earlier, it is better in the long-run. And forget being a professor at a small college, unless you like living in a tent; even top-ranked professors at smaller schools rarely break 70-80K a year.
(2) You work like a dog for very little reward.
(3) Success is not completely in your hands. If nothing else, science is unpredictable. If you spend 3-4 years on a great project that ultimately doesn't work, you're screwed. Career over.
(4) You have to be a bastard to be successful.
Yeah, some people are successful and become famous professors. But the %age of people who really do well is very low, and it's pretty random. If you want my advice (mvass), go learn a lucrative skill and start getting paid for it early. Most professors have a lot of knowledge, but very few marketable skills. If you like science and math, be an engineer, or a doctor. Applied sciences are where it's at. If you do insist on going through the gauntlet of grad school, at least be aware early of what kinds of "nontraditional" career paths are out there for people with doctorates. Law, business, analysis, consulting - these are all much more lucrative than being a professor, but you need to plan ahead in order to have realistic opportunities. Go take some business classes on the side, or whatever. Even if you ultimately don't use them, it will give you more options when you graduate with your PhD and are trying to figure out "well, what the hell do I do now?" Because your professors and university certainly won't help you.
I certainly wish I could go back and give myself some advice like that....
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violent_flower
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Almost there.
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posted January 08, 2009 07:28 PM |
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Well, mostly. I still have to apply to my two safety schools. But their deadlines are much later and their applications are much easier. But I've filled out the 8 big ones!
Seriously, some of the questions they ask are stupid. And their essays... blah.
At least that's over with.
So proud of you, my son will be doing that next year!!!!!!!! Keep your ass out of trouble mister..
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TheDeath
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posted January 08, 2009 08:30 PM |
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Corribus wow, sounds like one heck of a 'job'. Next time I see some professor doing something I will have to congratulate him because he survived
(but also remember he's a bastard )
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(4) You have to be a bastard to be successful.
I thought it was like that in all major businesses as well?
Not sure why but I think this point is not necessarily bad for mvass
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Corribus
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posted January 08, 2009 08:37 PM |
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@TheDeath
To some extent it is the same in other businesses. However, in most businesses you have to treat your employees with some minimum degree of professionalism. In addition, in most businesses employees have certain rights and benefits, an HR department supposedly looking out for the interests of the employees, or whatever. Graduate students have no such benefits and are little more than indentured servants. Professors can treat them however they please, and the graduate students have little recourse. Also, since professors are in little danger of being fired (short of molesting a student or something), they also generally act like feudal lords, and support staff (secretaries, etc.) are often treated like slaves.
Of course, I'm generalizing a bit, but I've seen enough of it to know that it's more the rule than the exception.
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Doomforge
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posted January 08, 2009 08:43 PM |
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Hey, Cor.. that's, ughh, strange what you say, I always thought being a professor in US means lots of cash.
Ahh, nevermind. I think that a lecturer is still a great job, though, at least in Poland.. maybe not professor, since it takes an insane lot of effort, but the equivalent of PhD is ok, because.. (valid mainly in Poland I fear..)
1. Your working week consists of 12 hours per week, not 40 hours per week as everywhere else. I may sound lazy, but I don't have damn time to waste on making charts in excel in some stupid bureau. Teaching in a univeristy gives you a lot of time for your hobbies and simply life. Everywhere else, it feels like "get up - eat - go to work - work - go back - eat - watch TV - go to sleep" routine, and the very THOUGHT of such a life makes me SICK.
2. It's about 20-25 dollars per hour, which is high for polish standards. You may not earn much because you do it for 12 hours per week, not 40, but it's still comparable to a decent 40hpw job in terms of payment.
3. Zero stress. YOU're stressing people, not the other way round (If you want to, of course.)
4. Zero effort. It may seem monotonous but in fact all you have to do is to create a good set of presentations and stick to them through your "career" (hate that word. Stinks of rat race for a mile.).
5. Easy access to all kinds of expert's reports which are well paid. If you're PhD of something useful, I mean, not philosophy (sorry Woockie )
For some reason I think it's much more interesting then whatever job I may get after finishing my college-equivalent.
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Corribus
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posted January 08, 2009 08:59 PM |
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Yeah it sounds ok, but consider:
No job security. I know a few people who do this, and it's constant worrying where your next job is going to be. A class lasts 3 months tops. When it's over, you're out of a job, unless you can find another one. That's a lot of stress for not a lot of money. Especially when you have 10 years of post high school education under your belt, which is supposed to mean a great, secure career.
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Doomforge
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posted January 08, 2009 09:04 PM |
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Quote:
Yeah it sounds ok, but consider:
No job security. I know a few people who do this, and it's constant worrying where your next job is going to be. A class lasts 3 months tops. When it's over, you're out of a job, unless you can find another one. That's a lot of stress for not a lot of money. Especially when you have 10 years of post high school education under your belt, which is supposed to mean a great, secure career.
It is a bit more secure here. You have a normal job contract for XX years, and you're pretty much untouchable. My dad works at Warsaw Tech, and even though he's not a lecturer himself, his buddies are.. and through 30 years of his work there, none of them ever felt insecure about their job. Quite the contrary.
It seems much different than the US system. If it was as bad as in the States, I'd definitely aim for different job 
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JoonasTo
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posted January 08, 2009 09:46 PM |
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People who say 60 thousand a year is bad. What is this world coming to? 
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Corribus
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posted January 08, 2009 10:04 PM |
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It is a bit more secure here. You have a normal job contract for XX years, and you're pretty much untouchable. My dad works at Warsaw Tech, and even though he's not a lecturer himself, his buddies are.. and through 30 years of his work there, none of them ever felt insecure about their job. Quite the contrary.
It seems much different than the US system. If it was as bad as in the States, I'd definitely aim for different job
There are official lecturer positions here, but they're uncommon and they still usually come with no benefits. I.e., you're on your own for health insurace, which isn't good considering what you're making.
@Joonas
Quote:
People who say 60 thousand a year is bad. What is this world coming to?
You need to put it in context. Whether 60K a year is good or not is all relative. What is better: making 60K for 40 hours/wk a year right out of college, or 60K a year for 100 hours/wk after 10 years of post-college education? Considering that you can be making well over 100K a year as a physician with less education, I'd say being a professor is a pretty bad deal.
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JoonasTo
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posted January 09, 2009 10:28 AM |
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Ah, that is true. Doctor takes six years of university(part of which is actually work) and makes the same money. And if they specialise three more(alongside their work) they make ridiculous money. But at least they deserve it(unlike politicians).
I have a few relatives who are professors. I have to agree to that beggin for money part. Of course they get paid well regardless but all their time goes into writing those money applications while they would rather be doing their job...
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Doomforge
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posted January 09, 2009 10:39 AM |
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in Poland, you get professor after a certain amount of activity, involving: publications, books, that type of stuff. You don't have to waste any job-time by doing this. And it's worth it, because your 12 hours per week becomes like 8 hours per week (no joke), and your salary finally starts to look like a common yuppie's one.
The difference is that he works like 12 hours per day (normal work + overtime, which isn't obligatory, but try NOT to take it.. ;D), and you.. uhhh. No comparison there.
I'm really looking forward to becoming professor one day. Yes, because I'm lazy
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mvassilev
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posted January 09, 2009 02:37 PM |
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Corribus:
Ah. But, if I understand correctly, a lot of a professor's income can come from writing books - which is something I intend to do. And my aunt and uncle are professors, and so are all of my grandparents, and they enjoy it.
Plus, there's not much I could do with a political science or economics degree outside of the university, except go into law, which has little interest for me, or work at the UN or something, which isn't highly paid or much fun either.
Bak:
But his philosophy degree isn't what got him elected.
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Corribus
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posted January 09, 2009 03:59 PM |
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Well I can't comment on the humanities and social sciences, but I can offer that getting a PhD in the humanities is in some senses even worse because most of those programs aren't even paid for, because the availability for funding is much worse.
Also, you don't need to be a professor to write a book.
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mvassilev
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posted January 09, 2009 09:43 PM |
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I suppose it would depend on where one teaches. I bet the economics department at Harvard or the University of Chicago are well-funded.
As for writing books - is anyone going to take you seriously if you're not a professor?
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TheDeath
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posted January 09, 2009 09:46 PM |
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As for writing books - is anyone going to take you seriously if you're not a professor?
That kind of attitude only influences average joe with probably below 100 IQs
is that what you want to influence?
Any reasonable person does not care about the author but about the book itself (or the message). That way at least you'll only attract reasonable people.
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mvassilev
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posted January 09, 2009 09:50 PM |
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That's not the issue. The issue is getting people to buy your book. Think about it. Certeris paribus, which book do you think is going to sell more - one written by a Harvard professor, or one written by a burger flipper?
And rightly so. It's signaling.
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