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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Schools of Magic : Summoning Magic
Thread: Schools of Magic : Summoning Magic This thread is 7 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 · NEXT»
Towerlord
Towerlord


Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
posted January 27, 2009 03:47 PM bonus applied by Elvin on 27 Jan 2009.

Schools of Magic : Summoning Magic

Summoning Magic is a very unique school, with all kinds of spells, as opposed to Destructive, Light or Dark, which are very focused magic schools. With Light, you know you're going to have buffs for your troops, Dark is all about cursing( with Vampirism exception which is actually a buff) and Destructive is ... destructive .

Summoning on the other hand, can:

- bless your troops (with Arcane Armor, Phantom Forces and Raise Dead)
- deal direct damage (with Fist of Wrath, Fire Traps, Wasp Swarm, Arcane Crystal and Earthquake)
- call reinforcements armies out of nowhere (with Summon Phoenix, Elementals and Wasp Hive)
- block opponent's actions (with Blade Barrier and Arcane Crystal)

Even though you have a big variety of possibilities, Summoning Magic is not the answer most of the times, because all the spells are too weak to compete with their blessing, damage or cursing counterparts, so using Summoning magic can be tricky.

I am going to explain now, why Summoning Magic is an inferior school, by taking it spell by spell, and also focus on situations where summoning might make the difference.



Fist of Wrath is probably the worst spell in the game. Some might say that you can kill Black Dragons(and Magnetic Golems) with it, so it is actually useful, but in fact it's very close to useless, as normal hero attack can usually deal the same amount of damage(or more) and wastes no mana. Only pro, is that you will cast it a little more often if you have Sorcery.



Fire Traps is considered one of the most powerful Summoning Spells, and it actually is. The damage potential is actually great, incredible for a level 1 spell. Unfortunately when facing a human opponent it might be tricky to use it at full potential. Another downside of this spell is the fact that Destructive - Meteor Shower(and Fireball) are way better, due to their instant effect, better damage and simple use.



Arcane Crystal is another great low level spell, with double effect: blocking opponent's archers and dealing decent damage to nearby troops when destroyed. While this sounds really nice, in reality the spell is actually pretty weak, if you look at it from another point of view. Mass Confusion is a lot better at blocking enemy archers, and Fireball/Meteor Shower are better at damaging opponent troops because you don't have to waste a shot to trigger their effect.



Wasp Swarm, again a combo spell. It is a lot worse when compared to Mass Slow on the long run, and the damage is small.



Animate Dead, the ressurection of the Dead, which also works on the living, but only for the duration of the battle, is actually a "flawless" summoning spell. It works great with Vampirism, the only downside is the 20% reduction to health.



Blocking the opponents path might seem great in concept, but wasting a hero turn for that is just crazy in my opinion. In the same turn your opponent can Mass Righteous Might his troops and deal up to 60% more damage with all of them against you. It means that you have to block at least 33% of his troops for many turns in order to make that Blade Barrier matter.



Only useful in sieges. Great for that, but sieges are seldom.



Phantom Forces is indeed a beauty. It increases the damage potential of one of your stacks by 100%. While not as good as Mass Righteous Might or Mass Haste most of the times, it can actually surpass these ones if you have a unbalanced army with a main damage stack. Still its volatility makes it less appealing.



You gain a Wasp Swarm caster in aid to your Hero. The problem is this caster is easily killed with any stack on the battlefield that can reach it most of the times . If you can secure some of these for a while they are deadly, but even then a simple banish ends their domination.



Weaker than Summon Phoenix... but less vulnerable to cold death, and abilities. Still it brings 20% more power to your army at most, when other buffs bring a lot more.



Arcane Armor, is wow at first sight... huge damage absorbing. but when compared to Mass Endurance it seems just a weakling unfortunately. Of course it also protects against destructive magic, but your opponent can shoot your other stacks down, and leave the protected one for his last spells.



Summon Phoenix, the Ultimate Summoning Magic, is a really awesome spell, but it has many counters unfortunately : Cold Death, Pit Lords and Wraiths. Also many destructive spells can kill it instantly at high Spell Power, maybe taking some other troops along also, as the Hit Points aren't that impressive. It can be Puppet Mastered, or it can simply be ignored by the opponent while he slaughters the troops.
Some times, it might prove to be a game winner.


All in all, Summoning Magic is great for creeping, where you face a dumb opponent(AI), and can make your walking over the map really easy, but when it comes to real battles, it is weak compared to the real top gun schools. Also it is game winner in rushes, when a Phoenix or Fire Elementals face small enemy armies led by a might hero. Still, even in rushes it pales when compared to Destructive Magic, which is more direct.

The real weakness of Summoning magic lies in the perks, which are a lot weaker when compared to the perks of the other schools. Master of Wrath, Mind or Fire are simply from another League !

Summoning Magic can be useful as support magic, and can prove a game winner in the final stages of the battle, when stacks on the battlefield are low, a Phoenix can be the king, while the Hero raises the dead, but maybe if you focus on a might skill like defense or attack instead of it, you will probably win the battle sooner than that with the extra might advantage.

In the end, my advice is to avoid summoning magic 90% of the time, if you can creep well without it, as the benefits of it don't balance the wasted skills.
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Asheera
Asheera


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
posted January 27, 2009 04:11 PM bonus applied by Elvin on 28 Jan 2009.
Edited by Asheera at 16:58, 27 Jan 2009.

Nice topic A few comments:

Summoning is one of the most versatile magic schools in the game. That's why it is important to have as many summoning spells at your disposal as possible (this means building Mage Guild level 5 and visiting spell-giving map locations). Unfortunately, level 5 of the Mage Guild is pretty hard to get to, and that's why I have to agree that Summoning is not that great in normal game.

However, in a duel on Elvin's Duel Map I have to say that I simply love Summoning Magic, especially for a Necro. It's better than Dark Magic in my opinion (except against Orcs with no Dark Shatter ). Reason for this are obviously, Raise Dead and a very powerful Phoenix. And that Dark Magic has a lot of counters. Puppet Master can be cleansed, a frenzied stack can be teleported near the enemy ranks, a blinded creature can be made to act again with a simple Stone Spikes damage on them (or War of the Chief ability), Magic Immunity and Vampirism take care of both of those spells. And the mass spells can either be cleansed or countered with the opposite Light Magic spell.

Let's analyze the spells now:

Fist of Wrath Weak weak weak... it may have uses against some creatures but most of the time it deals less damage than the normal attack so why use it when it costs five points of your mana? Ok maybe only if mana is abundant and you need the effects of Sorcery, and you need a normal attack now. But otherwise I wish it wouldn't waste the level 1 slot for Firetrap.

Firetrap excellent spell with a lot of damaging potential. As you said some humans may evade the traps but sometimes it's simply impossible, especially for large charging creatures (like the Champion)

Wasp Swarm A good spell, excellent at reducing initiative, but I'm not very fond of using it, simply because it has a relatively weak effect (since it's a level 2 spell which costs 5 mana) and it wastes one hero's turn. May be good with MotW though to neutralize some enemy slow creatures.

Arcane Crystal A good spell, has a little higher damage than Fireball and less mana cost, but it requires to be destroyed. In some situations it can be great, especially if the ArchLiches destroy the crystal with their Death Cloud ability - in which case you don't even waste one of your shooter's attack to destroy the crystal! Also it works on Black Dragons and creatures with Magic Immunity cast on them.

Earthquake Very situational, since it's only useful in sieges (or at destroying blade barriers). btw, does it destroy Arcane Crystals as well? Because if it does then it may be a little more useful than I thought

Phantom Forces Great spell, especially for a might faction since the targeted stack will have better damaging potential, and the spell doesn't use spellpower anyway. Be careful against enemy's destructive spells though, because they will hit the phantoms with 100% chances. The same applies to Fireshield and abilities of that kind, be careful of attacking such creatures!

Blade Barrier Situational spell but it can prove life-saving in some cases. If you block your, let's say, Titans from enemy's incoming large creatures they will always shoot from close range while your enemy desperately tries to destroy the blades (I've seen some replays like that ). Also it's great at blocking enemy troubling shooters (yes it blocks them when summoned adjacent)

Summon Elementals Not a very good spell because you may summon Earth elementals which are close to useless. But with Firewarriors it may prove a good damaging potential for Academy and Necro. Still the mana cost is kinda high in my opinion.

Summon Hive Great spell, especially with MotW against a might faction (which relies on the creatures and not on the hero). It can even have up to 17 Initiative (I had once with Necro on the Duel Map) which is a major enemy 'disabler'. The problem is that you need a lot of mana for it, since it not only costs lots of mana to cast it but also uses up 5 mana points from your hero every time it acts. The damage it does is also kinda good because it is dealt every turn and not only once (and also has a lot of initiative)

Arcane Armor I disagree about being weak. Arcane Armor on Vampire Princes = awesome Trust me, if you'd see some replays from that Duel Tournament you'd understand. If the enemy ignores them, they will simply put all the enemy's creatures to sleep (especially if you have Soldier's Luck). If they focus on them, they will be incredibly hard to break down, also because of their Life Drain ability which benefits from Arcane Armor as well. Help them with Raise Dead and they'll be killing machines (well, unless the enemy has very powerful Destructive spells, that is). Or you may even cast Vampirism on them after which leads to

Summon Phoenix Awesome spell, but very costy in mana. Against might factions without many chances to Cold Death it is simply a killer, especially if you have some Luck and Morale to trigger with the Phoenix as well.


Well that's all, maybe you should check some replays from Elvin's Duel Tournament and see how awesome summoning can really be at times
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted January 27, 2009 05:06 PM

Back to posting Towerlord? Good initiative and I mostly agree but can't comment right now. I had written something similar and reached the same conclusion, that summoning is better treated as a secondary support school.
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Asheera
Asheera


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
posted January 27, 2009 05:13 PM

btw for those that think Mass Endurance grants a 60% protection (on Expert) from enemy physical attacks, it is not correct.

Let's take a simple example: A stack of 100 Skeleton Warriors attack a stack of Paladins.

The Skeleton Warriors have an attack of 2, and deal 200 damage on average. The Paladins have defense 24. So if the skellies attack the Paladins they would deal 200 / ((24-2)*0.05+1) = 95 damage.

Now let's consider the Paladins have Endurance (+12 Defense). The skellies would deal 200 / ((36-2)*0.05+1) = 74 damage. Which is noway near as good as 95/2 = 47.5, which Arcane Armor would provide
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Towerlord
Towerlord


Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
posted January 27, 2009 06:05 PM

Asheara, there are situations where those spells can prove good, but other spell schools simply have better stuff to offer, so if you were to win with Summoning it usually means that you would've wiped the floors with the opponent if you had another school of magic.

Elvin , yeah, I guess ... so much experience in arena lately to share
My conclusion however, was that it is best not to choose Summoning as your skill cause it is a bad choice most of the times, and you have far options usually.
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Asheera
Asheera


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
posted January 27, 2009 06:15 PM

My experience with Elvin's Duel Map games tell me that it is far harder to win with a Dark Magic Necro than a Summoning one though.
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ebbafan
ebbafan


Promising
Famous Hero
posted January 27, 2009 06:44 PM

i agree that summoning isn't all that hot at the early twenties levels that most people seem to be competing at, but under certain circumstances, and at higher levels, it is really good.

fist of wrath, despite its weakness is still good with wizards+motw vs black dragons, and warlocks can empower it vs magnetic golems

arcane crystal definitely has more uses than you mention, but i will not talk about that now

wasp swarm is fantastic under the right circumstances; if you haven't tried high lvl dirael w/ rain of arrows + archer's dream set, you're missing out.

blade barrier is very useful for wizards, in combination with dark. you can really slow the enemy down and get the win because of this

Earthquake: "Only useful in sieges. Great for that, but sieges are seldom." Not true.

phantom forces, in my opinion, is the ultimate summoning spell at the higher levels.

if hive's animation were faster, it would be much better.

summon elementals is often pretty useless...

arcane armor is very useful

summon phoenix is not so great in the endgame...too many counters, and large armies can take them out fairly easily

and @asheera: might factions can counter phoenix: dark, elemental balance, pit lords, back to the void, etc.




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samiekl
samiekl


Supreme Hero
posted January 27, 2009 07:02 PM

inferno(or any might faction) + phantom forces, academy with motw, barriers and hives, necro with bird, dungeon with bird, etc. etc. . Summoning is very tricky school and needs very good timing and i believe it can be very effective as main school (not supportive), but i am a summoning fan so i might be subjective.

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phoenixreborn
phoenixreborn


Promising
Legendary Hero
Unicorn
posted January 27, 2009 07:06 PM

Ebba fan you are arguing but leaving information out.  Why?

Arcane crystal can block shooters, damage surrounding enemies...what other purpose did he leave out?

Does earthquake damage blade barriers?

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ebbafan
ebbafan


Promising
Famous Hero
posted January 27, 2009 08:02 PM

@phoenixreborn: these things have been mentioned previously in other posts on other threads by other people like asheera, elvin, broadstrong?, etc. i didn't want to get too repetitive. just read previous posts more carefully.

for example you say: does earthquake affect blade barriers - asheera just mentioned that in her previous post.

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Elodin
Elodin


Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
posted January 27, 2009 10:22 PM

Yes, the Summoning school is the weakest in the game. And Tower Lord nailed it as to why:

"The real weakness of Summoning magic lies in the perks, which are a lot weaker when compared to the perks of the other schools. Master of Wrath, Mind or Fire are simply from another League !"

Other schools get powerful mass effect spells (that are even low level!) and area effect spells.

Yes, each spell can be useful in situtions but it is also far more likely for you to be stuck with "sucky"  summoning spells that with poor spells from other schools.

Don't get me wrong, I like playing with summoning, but it should be strengthened with better perks.

The worst spell in the game in my opinion is not Fist but Summon Elementals. It just plain sucks. The creatures summon in a random place with low initiative. Estpecailly earth elementals.

Oh, I have been spending time improving my English and grammer usage for those who complained about it before. Now when I post on political topics there shoul be nothing to complain about except my conservative ideas.

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Fauch
Fauch


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted January 27, 2009 11:34 PM

Quote:
Arcane crystal can block shooters, damage surrounding enemies...what other purpose did he leave out?


you can manage to block walkers, in the right cirumstances. of course, it's often better to have blade barrier.

btw, blade barrier is good against creatures with multi attack, such as hydras. you can really make them think twice before they attack you, if you force them to attack the barrier at the same time.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted January 28, 2009 12:08 AM

Rather than the weakest I'd say the least reliable, can be poor or amazing according to circumstance. But then it's still not as simple.

Dark may face resistance or immunities either natural or through artifacts and so can destructive. Light is the one with the least flaws but the spells you get can also limit its effectiveness. Like say word of light vs sylvan, no magical immunity/cleansing vs necro etc.

You compare summoning's role as destructive, curse or blessing as opposed to the other schools. Theoretically you have a point but as far as I am concerned only school of sorcery and dragon hill allow you to get ANY magic school and even there there is no guarantee you will get the right spells to make it work.
But only three factions have it as native - dungeon, academy and necro. Of those only dungeon doesn't need it because the sky high spellpower can be put to immediate use and that's kinda required since its units are frail. It has its uses but it can simply put destructive to better use with its racial and perks.
Necro can use it nicely not to mention raise dead, I don't have to cover that. What remains is academy that can potentially use any magic school but spell selection is still uncertain. Let's assume it can get hold of all spells.

Like necro it is an endurance faction, usually stalls and outlives opponents - of course I've seen cases of academy mercilessly butchering might factions with raw might, initiative and buffs But unless the game is not too long and the selection decent I don't see why summoning is a bad choice, it complements its tactics. Light? Sure but alone it may not be enough. Dark? Can be countered usually. Destructive? You may not get boosters or even good spellpower for that. Under the right circumstances it can be an excellent light or destructive faction but it's not something to bet on.

Now why those spells are not that bad.

Firetrap, you know what it does. Unlike destructive however the damage cannot be halved and if you get one resist you'll only miss one or two mines. Of course it's more of a spell against 'melee' factions and they may have magical immunity as a counter.

Arcane crystal can also not be resisted and can deal pretty high damage as well as cover the dead. But unlike confusion or destructive it can block pathways or turn the battlefield in a danger zone. It can limit the opponent's space which is great for me. Would I rather have a fireball? Depends on the circumstance.

Blade barrier can indeed prove inferior to a good mass buff but blocking large targets can give enough time to regroup or at least damage persistent attackers. I don't expect it to do anything with epic armies but with moderate ones it serves its purpose. And sometimes you don't need many turns to make it worth your mana. No counters apart from summoning though you may be charged by the time you cast it.

Also.. Can be used nicely with summon hive and the occasional crystal as you force the opponent come through tight passages. Or of course block archers for a while.

Don't have much to say on the others except that they are better off in other magic combos. Like armor + regeneration, fire warriors + phantom, phoenix + buffs/vampirism/regen.. Also while phoenix can easily be countered a timed casting can turn a game around, has saved my hide a few times saving it as a last card.


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phoenixreborn
phoenixreborn


Promising
Legendary Hero
Unicorn
posted January 28, 2009 12:21 AM
Edited by phoenixreborn at 00:23, 28 Jan 2009.

Quote:
for example you say: does earthquake affect blade barriers - asheera just mentioned that in her previous post.


That doesn't mean it is true.

Edit: For example what if it does but only with tremors?

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blizzardboy
blizzardboy


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
posted January 28, 2009 12:25 AM bonus applied by Elvin on 28 Jan 2009.

Some comments & opinions:

I think Summoning Magic is a very complicated school to judge, and in some ways is the weakest school and yet the best school in game. The other schools may generally be more potent, but there are hard counters to all the other schools, but there's really no hard counter to Summoning magic. You can use puppetmaster/frenzy to make an army buffed with light magic to become a liability. Light and Dark mass effects can counter one another, and there are ways to dispel them. You can have resistances and immunities to prevent hostile spell from effecting your creatures at all. What good is a deep freeze when it is resisted? What good are your righteous might + blessed griffons that are frenzied? These are situational, but not that situational; they can come up fairly often and your whole light army that you praise so much goes to hell.

Is there really a way to hard counter most of the summoning spells? Sure, you can have banish, but that's less common than dispelling effects, and it's not strong enough to kill a phoenix and elementals quickly as opposed to how a dispel or counter change things in no time. In the case of phoenix, there is cold death, but is that any bigger of a counter than cleansing a puppetmaster or resisting/being immune to implosion? So I don't consider that any more of a problem than it is with most other level 5 spells.

The other schools are also largely dependent on who the enemy is. Is dark magic really that great against necro or academy? Is light magic really that great if you're a low-might faction? Is destructive magic that great against stronghold? What if the enemy has high resistances? You can never get massively screwed by having Summoning magic.  

I also think you're underplaying some of the spells. Arcane Crystal deals damage on par with Fireball, can block shooters, and the fact that you have to destroy it is an advantage as much as a disadvantage. Sometimes you don't want to destroy it, and many factions have area casters that can destroy it for you while still blowing up the creatures. The fact that it can't be resisted is an added bonus, and again, not as situational as you might think.

Firetrap has enormous damage potential if you hit most of them, and can a human player really dodge them that well? Walking through a mine field is often unavoidable, and even if they do, you're forcing them to waste a lot of time by dancing around the map.

A massive benefit to any summoned creature (phoenix, elementals, phantoms) that you didn't mention is the fact that you can use them as bait. Using them to absorb counter attacks is a big deal. If a big stack of melee creatures counterattacks on your Phoenix, you can essentially save as many creatures as though you used Raise Dead, on top of dealing a bunch of damage. This is something you can't blow over because it's very valuable.

Overall, I still believe other schools are more potent than summoning magic, but I think you've exaggerated it. Better off not taking it 90% of the time? I think that's too harsh. And although taking other schools as you're primary spell are often more effective, I think Summoning generally makes the #1 auxiliary school in the game.

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Asheera
Asheera


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
posted January 28, 2009 02:17 AM

Quote:
But only three factions have it as native - dungeon, academy and necro.
If I may add some suggestion here, a nice combo is Inferno with Magic Insight (let's say you're playing Jezebeth) and Phantom Forces in the guild. Copying the buffed Succubi (you can't copy higher tiers because you have no mastery) is a pretty good asset, coupled with Expert Sorcery to cast faster. Also Magic Insight leads to Distract which may prove very useful against powerful enemy spellcasters.

Unfortunately it's a somewhat rare situation...
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Duncan
Duncan


Famous Hero
The Pathfinder
posted January 28, 2009 07:12 AM

It should also be noted that Necro's Phantom comes with incorporeal ability. Whoops, suddenly another 1k skellies on the battlefield! Hit it, missed... Whoops, now they're gonna hit back! Aargh...

Happen lately in my games...
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Towerlord
Towerlord


Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
posted January 28, 2009 08:53 AM
Edited by Towerlord at 08:54, 28 Jan 2009.

Summoning Magic(and Destructive) is surpassed by Light or Dark in every way in epic battles... so in this scenario I would recommend never wasting skills on it.

Also Summoning is weaker than Destructive almost all the time, so if you have that option I recommend you go for it, be it Academy, Necro or Dungeon the town that you are using. So in my opinion 90% is a fair percentage

In the end, let me show you a Summoning Frenzy replay of mine. It was somehow conditioned by the very poor Mage Guild I got, and by the fact that I couldn't obtain Elemental Balance perk unfortunately. Also, by the bad heroes which made me choose a weird, yet interesting solution.

At the end of the day, I wish I had a Fireball in guild, and didn't use Summoning.

CLICK HERE FOR REPLAY
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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted January 28, 2009 09:35 AM

Quote:
Summoning Magic(and Destructive) is surpassed by Light or Dark in every way in epic battles... so in this scenario I would recommend never wasting skills on it.


I think you're quite off on some central parts of your review, Towerlord, and I think the above part pretty much proves why: It's true that Summoning Magic might not be the most powerful in epic battles, but it's probably the most powerful school in creeping and rushing.

Creeping: Like several of you have mention, Firetrap has an amazing damage output which surpasses many Destructive spells of comparable level. Against walkers, even high-level walkers, this spell can provide amazing results, particularly if they are not too fast. Blade Barrier can, not because of its damage output, but because of its blocking effect, win you fights against far, far stronger neutrals that cannot fly over it.

Rushing: If you manage an early Summon Phoenix, what really is there to stop you? Yes, if you are facing Necropolis or Inferno, they might have Wraiths or Pit Lords, but how often do you actually get those in early game? And yes, Cold Death is a possibility, but how many factions actually take Destructive Magic? Dungeon, certainly, Sylvan, likely, Fortress, probably, Necropolis, maybe, Academy, maybe, Haven, Inferno, hardly, Stronghold, obviously not. And how many of these actually go for Master Of Ice > Cold Death over Master Of Fire > Ignite? Dungeon - unlikely, needs Secrets of Destruction and would like Ignite also. Sylvan - very likely to go Cold Death. Fortress - possible, but likely to go for Fire. Academy - possible. Necropolis - likely. So yes, there is a chance, but not a lot of factions I'll consider high risk unless they do it on purpose to disrupt your Phoenix rush - and can you always afford to do something simply to counter a possible strategy rather than building your own? Summen Elements + Fire Warriors is another very powerful combo. With good Spellpower, this will earn you a pretty strong stack that will do decent damage and be protected by annoying fireshield.

Wasp Swarm: Finally, I'll dedicate a whole paragraph to this single spell. It may be true that Mass Expert Slow is more effective in the long run, but don't forget that Expert Wasp Swarm is the single most effective unit stopper with immediate effect. And yes, if enemy has 7 stacks which are all very strong, it will not do you much good, but against that single stack of Paladins, just to name one example, this spell can prove invaluable. And with Summon Hive you can even have repeated castings to stop a single stack from ever acting.

And btw., is it true that Hive subtracts 5 mana with every casting?
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samiekl
samiekl


Supreme Hero
posted January 28, 2009 10:26 AM

I've beaten superior might orc armies with dungeon using summoning and dark and guess which was the key school? So yes, it's good in epic fights too. It's the most underrated school, not weakest

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