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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Modders Workshop > Thread: [project] Dual Hero Classes
Thread: [project] Dual Hero Classes This thread is 13 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 · NEXT»
alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted February 24, 2009 03:59 PM
Edited by VokialBG at 10:13, 02 Apr 2009.

[project] Dual Hero Classes

What This project is about adding a second hero class to each faction, so that a Might / Magic hero choice is available as in Heroes 3. There has been talk about this project before, but so far I was told it was not doable, and only since Kronos1000 posted his modded exe yesterday does the door seem to open.

Why: The idea is to add a new tactical level to the game by giving you the choice to be more diverse with each faction: The current heroes for most of them locks you in a specific approach (if you play Academy or Necropolis, you do magic; if you play Inferno or Haven, you do might), but with an alternative class with viable stat and skill progression, you can now choose an alternative.

How: The following steps needs to be addressed in order to complete this mod:

exe file must be modded - preferably for both standard 3.1 version as well as 3.1_levels, 3.1_NCF, and 3.1_levels_NCF. Here, _levels stands for the modded exe file which deals with the Hero level progression (by bad), and _NCF stands for the New Creature Framework - both mods affect the exe, and should preferably be compatible with this one. Responsible: Kronos1000?

Hero classes must be defined with names in game so appropriate folders can be made for skills and stats, etc. Suggested names: Cleric, Heretic, Reaper, Overlord, Warden, Alchemist, Defender, Battlemage.

Starting stats and primary skill progression should be assigned. Suggested values here.

Skillwheels should be prepared and secondary skill chances should be decided for each faction. Following this, skill files should be modded. Responsible: Skill chances are in the making, open for input.

Graphic issues: We need a model for each new class - preferably taken fromthe campaign hero models (e.g. Biara > Heretic). Responsible: Open.

Hero identities, faces and specialties should be decided for new and old classes. Some Heroes will probably change from old to new class, as there are currently not 16 available (2 x 8) portraits in each faction. Suggested solution is 2 x 6 heroes for each faction, first draft here, open for further work.

Knowledge, work power, ideas, and everything else is required to optimize this project.


My current approach is to keep it as simple as possible in order to achieve something that's actually doable and working. That means no individual hero models for all heroes, and a liberal re-use of existing features will be necesary (some hero specialities can be re-used between factions, hero portraits taken from campaign heroes, etc.).

My force is not modding, however. I'm a developer more than anything, and only has a crude knowledge of how things are done. This is why I'll need your support in this project. However, if we get it through, it's my belief, that we'll get a truely great game addition of it.

So, whose up for giving this a shot?




Update:

Necropolis demo, that will allow everybody to play with the new Death Knight and Necromancer. I chose necropolis first because the necromancy skill is highly independent and therefore allows for a strong might/magic split-up. Here are the download links for the demo:

Necropolis Demo (h5u file)

and the required exe file:

H5 Classes exe

The death knight and necromancer are supposed to follow the development paths explained in these screenshots (If they don't do it exactly inform me, because then it's a bug):










The skillsystem is not necessarily final, it just contains some changes based on the latest discussions. There are 7 necromancers and 7 Death Knights available. If I remember correctly these heroes are death knights:

-vladimir, nemor, kaspar, orson, giovanni, ornella, banshee-hero (don't remember her name)

You can also play with heroes from other factions, but they are not prepared (only original classes and annoying nival skillchoices), they will also follow the new secondary skill system. Play the demo and give me your opinion. Don't forget the necromancer is also interesting, it has less defense and more magic skills. Focus your comments on necropolis for now, because I'm not going to bother with arguments considering unfinished parts.

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DarkCrystal
DarkCrystal


Promising
Supreme Hero
Staright out of line
posted February 24, 2009 04:07 PM

Hell, that's a great project!

I always wanted to see two heroes classes in H5.

Not sure if that legal, but no matter for me either way.
____________
Sometimes I'm about to yell: "It is flat you idiots!" But I don't wanna die in fire.

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Kronos1000
Kronos1000


Promising
Supreme Hero
Frysln Boppe
posted February 24, 2009 04:25 PM

All right, it is easy to make those other exes compatible with the Hero classes, that's no problem

Second I had once thought up some ideas concerning a MOD like this one so I'll share them:

I had an idea that the second Hero classes should have the same colour schemes as the alt. upgrades. I.e. a red Haven Hero, black Inferno Heroes, etc.

Names and looks I thought up:

Haven: Cleric, reskinned Markal, maybe we could use Cepheus' Ardrei skin he made for GotP:



If we use the colour scheme idea if not it could be retextured blue.

Inferno: Heretic seems to be the only fitting name, I can't remember the Model I thought up.

Necropolis: Dread Knight, Reskinned Knight to make it the counterpart of Haven's Knights.

Dungeon: Overlord, reskinned Agreal maybe we could give him a sword.

Sylvan: Herbologist, Findan's Model reskinned.

Academy: Alchemist, Godric's model making him resemble h4's Lord Hero.

Fortress: Hersir, tis one is tricky maybe one of the Campaign heroes?

Stronghold: I had the idea not to give them a second Hero Class, because the cannot learn spells and the town has talismans and warcries so I don't think that's a good idea.


Another thing is that ultimate abilities sould not be obtainable some of them just don't fit, instead we could try to balance the classes by giving them a fine set of abilities.
____________
Hwr cwom mearg? Hwr cwom mago?
Hwr cwom maumgyfa? - 'The Wanderer'

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted February 24, 2009 04:56 PM
Edited by alcibiades at 16:56, 24 Feb 2009.

Good to hear that modding the exe's is not an issue!

About the names:

Necropolis: I prefer Reaper because a) it's a single word, and b) it avoids confusion with Death Knight (the unit!) and Dark Knight (also a unit) and also Fallen Knight (the skill). We'll hear the masses on that before we reach concensus.

Sylvan: Herbologist sounds a bit clumsy imo, I find Warden to sound better.

Fortress: Hersir could work fine also. I'm impartial.

Stronghold: I think Stronghold can have an alternative class. Shout and Enlightenment plus Shatter Magics would be higher in chances, and perhaps they could even learn low lever Light and Dark spells, if we can mod that?


Quote:
Another thing is that ultimate abilities sould not be obtainable some of them just don't fit, instead we could try to balance the classes by giving them a fine set of abilities.


There's a huge discussion looming here. I have another project which I would love to merge with this one, which would nicely deal with this: The idea includes:

- Common uniform skill tree - eliminating some of the differences between factions, all factions would have a basic skill tree that looks like this. Notice that only basic structure is shown here, races could have different further prerequisits for some skills (for instance: Magic classes might require also Scouting for Swift Mind while Migh classes don't).

- Class specific skills substitute for general skills where appropriate - for instance, Herald Of Death goes instead of Battle Commander for Necropolis.

- All factions have access to (the relevant) Ultimate Abilities - these would be Absolute Charge, Nature's Luck, Absolute Defence, Arcane Omniscience, perhaps others. The idea is that these work as syngergy skills, so that any hero class who has Luck + Light Magic + Logistics + Attack with appropriate perks can get Nature's Luck. This would be good for balance, because then not only Sylvan would have this ber-powerful option. Problem is that not all ultimates makes sense for other factions - some could, if we made appripriate perks common (Retaliation Strike could move to Defence, Banshee Howl could move to Dark Magic), while others simply don't make sense without the appropriate racial (Absolute Rage, Urgash's Call).

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Asheera
Asheera


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
posted February 24, 2009 05:07 PM

Quote:
Necropolis: I prefer Reaper because a) it's a single word, and b) it avoids confusion with Death Knight (the unit!) and Dark Knight (also a unit) and also Fallen Knight (the skill). We'll hear the masses on that before we reach concensus.
What about Doom Knight? It's a common rank for Undead in many other fantasy games.
____________

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ArchWarl0ck
ArchWarl0ck


Adventuring Hero
Dank memesiah
posted February 24, 2009 05:23 PM

The plan is great, still wanna mention some things, hope it would help

Heretic IMO is not the best name. The word fits more for humans who betrayed their religion and country for the demons, as it was in HoMM 3. Suggesting Destroyer or Firestarter. Also, would look great as Orlando with a staff\trident instead of his axe.

Warden - a good one, but can I suggest a Sorceror? (nostalgic part about HoMM 2 goes here)

Alchemist... Does alchemy exist in Ashan? Well I do agree that the hero should be something like a scientist (according to the lore) with basic magic abilities. Here's where I don't know, maybe Artificer, but that's a conflict with a racial skill.

Maybe a Shaman class would fit into stronghold better, to show that their magic is rather primitive.
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I have a knack for perceiving things - I can see how it sounds, I can feel how it sings

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VokialBG
VokialBG


Honorable
Legendary Hero
First in line
posted February 24, 2009 06:45 PM
Edited by VokialBG at 18:55, 24 Feb 2009.

It was long ago when I had work on a project, I'll like to join as texturer (it doesn't drain a lot of time).


On the name question, let's keep theclassical H3 names, let's think up 1 for Fortress and start.

So... um... about Fortress, why not Spell Breaker


And for Stronghold: Shaman or Battlemage

I remember this screen poster by Cep for GotP:


____________

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted February 24, 2009 06:49 PM

Shaman won't do, as we already have a Shaman unit.

Doom Knight is poor choice for the same reason, there is also a unit (NCF) called Doom Knight, iirc.

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VokialBG
VokialBG


Honorable
Legendary Hero
First in line
posted February 24, 2009 06:52 PM
Edited by VokialBG at 18:55, 24 Feb 2009.

Look at the pics up there, it's just great Death Knight by Cep!

Let's just remane the unit to Black Knight or Dread Knight or Vampire Knight and use the Death Knight name for the hero!
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ArchWarl0ck
ArchWarl0ck


Adventuring Hero
Dank memesiah
posted February 24, 2009 06:54 PM
Edited by ArchWarl0ck at 18:56, 24 Feb 2009.



Here's Orlando remade for the Heretic.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=RRBPU4NS - Here's the mod itself in .pak, for looking it up in the editor.

It's the basic, I'm planning to add some eyecandy later.
____________
I have a knack for perceiving things - I can see how it sounds, I can feel how it sings

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Kronos1000
Kronos1000


Promising
Supreme Hero
Frysln Boppe
posted February 24, 2009 07:06 PM

I agree with Vokial we should rename the Death Knight unit and use Death Knight as the Hero class, Cepheus' texture is just great.

Anyway, about the Inferno Magic Hero, what about Pyromancer instead?

Oh and the universal abilites seems like a great idea.
____________
Hwr cwom mearg? Hwr cwom mago?
Hwr cwom maumgyfa? - 'The Wanderer'

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Cepheus
Cepheus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
posted February 24, 2009 07:48 PM
Edited by Cepheus at 19:53, 24 Feb 2009.

I love all this praise, and thanks, but two things:

1 - The textures are low quality and were made before I understood how to create transparent images, so... outdated
2 - I don't actually have them on my HDD anymore

But I could easily remake them in much better quality if you like, though I think using effects would make something more interesting.

Quote:
perhaps they could even learn low lever Light and Dark spells, if we can mod that?


Definitely possible in 3.0, but not with the 3.1 patch I'm afraid as they made magic totally inaccessible to Barbarians, and warcries totally inaccessible to everyone else.  Unless you can find out which bytes in the new patch's .exe they edited to determine this sort of thing (rather impossible), it's a no-go

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Kronos1000
Kronos1000


Promising
Supreme Hero
Frysln Boppe
posted February 24, 2009 08:01 PM
Edited by Kronos1000 at 20:01, 24 Feb 2009.

Well, there is a sharper Creatures MOD can't we do the same thing on these textures? I still have all GotP files so I also have these textures Should I upload them?
____________
Hwr cwom mearg? Hwr cwom mago?
Hwr cwom maumgyfa? - 'The Wanderer'

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VokialBG
VokialBG


Honorable
Legendary Hero
First in line
posted February 24, 2009 08:37 PM
Edited by VokialBG at 20:50, 24 Feb 2009.

I'll like to work on the Sylvan hero (I'm on thinking phase). The idea is called Restorator. It's going to be remake of Findan or maybe Tieru.

My idea is for hero who starts with Restoration spell.

Um... and what about the heroes of every class? We have 2 options:

1. Every town has 8 heroes - we are going to separate them (4+4);
2. We are going to add 8 more heroes per town (or 4 more and separate 2 of the oldies - 6+6);

If we are goint to add we can use the old GotP portraits for the Death Knights  (we also have 1 Heretic there).

Also the vegetable king Gurgo, can always be side by side with the alchemists!



(LoL!)
____________

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Lexxan
Lexxan


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
posted February 24, 2009 10:13 PM

Quote:
Shaman won't do, as we already have a Shaman unit.

Doom Knight is poor choice for the same reason, there is also a unit (NCF) called Doom Knight, iirc.


Nuckelavee Maybe? (= Flayed Death Knight)

Or Maybe a Headless Horseman? (called Dullahan)
____________
Coincidence? I think not!!!!

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted February 24, 2009 10:16 PM

Like I said, my initial approach would be to have 6 Heroes of every class, for a total of 12 per faction. For most factions, there are 4 campaign Heroes available to add the missing ones, only Academy and Sylvan are short of one (I think I borrowed one for Academy in Dungeon). See my link above also.

As for the suggested hero textures here, the Death Knight (or whatever name is chosen) texture looks good, but colouring is a complete miss-match. Doesn't have the right feeling with both warm brown and green colours as well as black, grey and red.

The Heretic / Orlando texture doesn't look quite as good, the head seems to be clearly floating above the body and also seems to be much smaller than the body size would require. We should make an overview of all the campaign Hero textures avilable to see which could be appropriate for new hero classes. With all due respect, most of the pre-made textures look better overall than the re-coloured and re-textured ones.
____________
What will happen now?

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Lexxan
Lexxan


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
posted February 24, 2009 10:19 PM

Suggestion: Runemage = Re-skinned Hangvul
           Defender = (Old) Runemage model.
____________
Coincidence? I think not!!!!

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Cepheus
Cepheus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
posted February 24, 2009 10:54 PM

Just a couple of opinions and suggestions on the hero lineup from the other thread.  First of all, you know I'm against making campaign heroes recruitable, but I'd be willing to make my own version of the mod that uses only the eight basic heroes per faction anyway, so don't worry much about my grumbling there.

Haven:
Using both Orlandos isn't a good idea, IMHO.  Also, Duncan strikes me as more might than magic.

Inferno:
Sovereign might make a better Demon Lord, but otherwise no complaints

Necropolis:
Arantir and Markal should definitely be magic heroes, while I think Ornella (formerly a knight) and Vladimir (basis for Nicolai) would make better Reapers.

Dungeon:
All well and good

Sylvan:
If there's any hero in this town who should be a magic hero, it's Alaron.  In contrast, Tieru the Dragon Knight seems to me a clear-cut might hero.

Academy:
Looks great

Fortress:
Again, Hangvul is definitely a magic hero, and certainly a Runemage if nothing else, while Tolghar is an obvious might hero (leading his own kingdom's army).

Stronghold:
Seems great, perhaps swap Gotai for Kunyak?

Misc:
There's two missing heroes, but what do you know, there's two beta portraits.  The Hangvul on AoH is his beta, so use his original portrait from the game and create a new Wizard with the other one

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mamgaeater
mamgaeater


Legendary Hero
Shroud, Flying, Trample, Haste
posted February 24, 2009 11:00 PM

since when was dread knight a bad name?
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Protection From Everything.
dota

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ArchWarl0ck
ArchWarl0ck


Adventuring Hero
Dank memesiah
posted February 25, 2009 12:26 PM

Quote:
the head seems to be clearly floating above the body and also seems to be much smaller than the body size would require.

That's Nival's fault, not mine. The did the model, I only added the staff.

Quote:
We should make an overview of all the campaign Hero textures avilable to see which could be appropriate for new hero classes.

All right, considering the Inferno we have:
-Sovereign - too big
-Biara - too small
-Agrael - he is a more a dark elf or something
-Veyer - his body looks just like Orlando, but his head is more demonlordish so i think he's the most suitable for the role.

Also - Thralsai model for the overlord (and Raelag for the warlock, cuz the current model really sucks). Laszlo's model AFAIK has no flag and recoloring some other parts of him for team color would be awful, so I suggest Godric (best) or the red knight (second) having the recolored flag with the spider on it (instead of a griffin\sun) and their horse armor taken from Ornella Necro model.

Quote:
With all due respect, most of the pre-made textures look better overall than the re-coloured and re-textured ones.

Huh, I guess the first two were made ingame with low quality settings, so that is why they so blurry. So we need to see them when the game's settings are higher.
Also, as I've said before, I can easily add some mirrors for my heretic (Veyer now?) and his armor will look shiny and pretty.
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I have a knack for perceiving things - I can see how it sounds, I can feel how it sings

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