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Jabanoss
Promising
Legendary Hero
Property of Nightterror™
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posted December 19, 2010 12:33 PM |
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Edited by Jabanoss at 12:40, 19 Dec 2010.
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It's really great that they added snow just for variety. Heroes has always been a lot about exploring and adventuring, so the more terrains the better
Quote: I encourage respectful discussion, but please be more aware of staying on the right side of the line. There are several members who have been overly aggresive lately, so please try to take it down a notch, so we can keep a pleasant atmosphere.
I'm kinda guess I'm one of those members, so I'm sorry. When I joke I just do it too much sometimes.
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"You turn me on Jaba"
- Meroe
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Jabanoss
Promising
Legendary Hero
Property of Nightterror™
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posted December 19, 2010 12:50 PM |
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I think that the Orcs lives in some kind of plain-jungle trophic environment. Like you know they live on the outskirts of the jungle, whereas another faction nagas for example live completely in the jungle.
This is my bet, it sounds cool enough.
If you have seen Apocalypto, imagine that the Orcs are the Aztecs and then the Nagas are the ones living completely in the jungle.
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"You turn me on Jaba"
- Meroe
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Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
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posted December 19, 2010 02:16 PM |
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Yes, Sir Charles has confirmed the Stronghold's terrain for you. So the new faction (yes, it is new) will either occupy the Jungles, Snow or Underground.
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"Those who forget their history are inevitably doomed to repeat it." —Proverb, Might and Magic VIII
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Adrius
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Stand and fight!
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posted December 19, 2010 04:39 PM |
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That I strongly disbelieve. Almost everyone wants to be a sexy slender elven assassin or something, males included.
And god no more elf variations, I hate them with passion.
Wood elves, dark elves, night elves, blood elves, deep elves, sea elves, winter elves, high elves, low elves, ****-if-i-know-elves...
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Xevronixussor
Tavern Dweller
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posted December 19, 2010 05:09 PM |
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Since there could be a faction that does not have a tileset associated with it, there can be actually not only 6, but 7 factions in the game!
Here's some ideas for the new creatures
Faction: the Terribles
Core unit:
Enemy
Physical description: The Enemy looks like a unit that actually would not necessarily run away from combat or shy away from attacking, which makes them look like being useful in combat, to some extent
Special ability: Can feel animosity towards the opponent's units
Upgrade:
Arch Enemy
Looks like the Enemy but more arched
Core unit 2
Minority
Physical description: Looks somewhat different from all the others
Special ability: Can't really do anything until upgraded
Upgrade:
Majority
Physical description: Looks quite like all the others. Can do anything to Minorities
Elite unit:
Angry
Physical description: Looks rather pissed and quite willing to attack the opponent's units
Special ability: Can walk on its legs and attack with its weapon
Upgrade:
Very Angry
Physical description: Looks downright agitated
Elite unit 2
Flying sht
Physical description: Self-explanatory
Special ability: Can do massive area damage if it hits the fan
Upgrade
Flying fck
Physical description: Has a completely different color scheme than the basic unit
Champion unit
Monster
Physical description: Has a large number of teeth
Special ability: Beats the Cyclops in terms of number of eyes
Upgrade:
Ubermonster
Physical description: Has more teeth than any other unit in the game, including the Monster.
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Yaeliccc
Known Hero
Undead, but warm and fuzzy
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posted December 19, 2010 05:40 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
CHAMPION: Sea Monster/Leviathan
Leviathan walkin the earth ??
Yes. In H4 the Sea Monsters managed to do so, so I see no problem. And if you're talking about their locomotion alone, well, we would have to define how the Leviathan would be presented (in terms of anatomy etc.) if it would have a snake-like body, dragon-like head, breathe ice, I see no barrier between this awesome creature being in HOMM (If it has a snake like body, then it's movement wouldn't be any more restrained than that of Naga, or H1 & H2 Hydra ) OK, if you still have doubts...
ANOTHER SOLUTION:
They may have the ability (which would look visually stunning as well) to levitate (Leviathan - levitate? ) above the ground when outside of water, by using some sort of a telekinetic aura! Don't know about you, but I'd love something like that! They ARE Leviathans after all, giving them some supernatural power (at least to aid them moving around) is simply fair.
in homm 4 they attacked only at sea, the whole concept of leviathan is a biblical sea monster... as in needs to be in the sea ! the idea of having a giant aquarium in my army as im walkin across the desert is.... not trying to rain on your parade but even though this is a mythical world they will never have sea monsters walkin the earth... sorry
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted December 19, 2010 05:52 PM |
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Nice Xevronixussor
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Yaeliccc
Known Hero
Undead, but warm and fuzzy
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posted December 19, 2010 06:03 PM |
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homm game without elves is a crazy idea, they've been there from homm 1 all the way to homm 5, i love elves, and find them to be one of the most diverse factions creature wide... orcs, humans, inferno kinda boring, everyone attackin elves coz they are used in every game ? so ? if u have a need to be that unique dont play pc games at all, that will be unique, elves are nice and if u were to stop for a sec and just examine the elves faction as opposed to being anti just coz they are in every other game, u would realize that elves are ok, so yeah enjoy humans, inferno and your orcs just coz u liked their artwork, gameplay is irrelevant to ppl like u after all... thank god necro is still in the game...
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted December 19, 2010 06:15 PM |
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I'm actually kind of with Nightterror in this whole discussion. I think a fantasy universe should have Humans, Elves, Dwarves and Orcs, overused as it might be - simply because there is a certain element of tradition that defines fantasy worlds (since Tolkien, as Vlaad pointed out).
I like the idea with having a core race for each faction, and personally I'm not so fixated on the exact number of racial units - they can be 1, 2, 3, 4 or even 5 for all I care, as long as they are relevant and believable.
For me, the point about racial units is that they represent different professions within the society - Haven army is the obvious example. Here I should emphasize Haven works because it's not about different kinds of humans, but the same humans doing different things (gender difference none-withstanding). Thus, it's not like the Human on the horse is an oversized super-human being, he's just trained in a different way.
Problem comes with these Orc units, and even worse with H5 Fortress. They don't *look* like the same Orcs (Dwarves) doing different things, suddenly we have small Orcs that do one thing (Mauler), and large Orcs that do another (the guy with the skull and tiger skin). Same with Dwarven Defenders and Thanes from H5.
So let's cut to the bone, if you want a giant bad-ass elite unit, then don't just scale up the Orc model, but pull in something else - call it a Troll, an Ogre, a Giant, or whatever. Or if you want another Orc unit - and I don't have anything agains that - then stick to the regular Orc model, but change the extras (i.e. armor, weapons, whatever else).
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What will happen now?
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SkrentyzMienty
Famous Hero
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posted December 19, 2010 06:20 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
CHAMPION: Sea Monster/Leviathan
Leviathan walkin the earth ??
Yes. In H4 the Sea Monsters managed to do so, so I see no problem. And if you're talking about their locomotion alone, well, we would have to define how the Leviathan would be presented (in terms of anatomy etc.) if it would have a snake-like body, dragon-like head, breathe ice, I see no barrier between this awesome creature being in HOMM (If it has a snake like body, then it's movement wouldn't be any more restrained than that of Naga, or H1 & H2 Hydra ) OK, if you still have doubts...
ANOTHER SOLUTION:
They may have the ability (which would look visually stunning as well) to levitate (Leviathan - levitate? ) above the ground when outside of water, by using some sort of a telekinetic aura! Don't know about you, but I'd love something like that! They ARE Leviathans after all, giving them some supernatural power (at least to aid them moving around) is simply fair.
in homm 4 they attacked only at sea, the whole concept of leviathan is a biblical sea monster... as in needs to be in the sea ! the idea of having a giant aquarium in my army as im walkin across the desert is.... not trying to rain on your parade but even though this is a mythical world they will never have sea monsters walkin the earth... sorry
*sigh* I KNOOOOW, that's why I asked to look at my second solution - does that sound bad to you as well?
In H4 they DID attack at sea, BUT they managed to move aboard the ship, how is the wooden ship floor different from ground??
BESIDES, I still stand by my second solution about levitation; I mean, if terrestrials have SHIPS to roam SEAS, why be so discriminative and not give the aquatic faction their "Ship"? Also most of the aquatic faction creatures would have no problem in the first place (e.g. Nagas, Flying Snakes, Troglodytes, Basilisks, Turtles, Myrmidons, Mermaids etc.)
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Omnipotence
Hired Hero
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posted December 19, 2010 06:51 PM |
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Honestly, I have no problem with the presence of elves. Instead, I have a problem with the way they have been put in the game (specifically H5)
1. Pixie - Tiny fairies that through dust at you... 'nough said...
2. Bladedancer - Thin as a stick, armorless dancers, not very fitting on a battle field...
3. Archer - The one true elf that I love, overused or not, Tolkien or not, elven archers kick @ss!
4. Druid - Meh, not too bad though not with the most thought put into them in my opinion.
5. Unicorn - War-esque unicorns are right there with the archer and can truly be a formidable and potential force (just keep away form the shiny meadow-lovers).
6. Treant - Idea is great, display is terrible. Need to be more ferocious and powerful looking, not like an old bent over grandpa.
7. Green Dragon - Being a dragon it was a bit over used in H5 but either way it did work.
Thus, if pixie were replaced, bladedancer put some meat and armor on, druid spiced up a bit, and the treant built sturdier, elves could be a welcome sight. And, in this format, I would love to see them as I do, as well, believe that they are necessary for any fantasy game.
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"Life... Liberty... And The Pursuit Of All Who Threaten It." - United States Navy
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted December 19, 2010 07:05 PM |
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The elves are hiding ashamed of their defeat by Haven in the Clash of Fashion. It will take at least one expansion pack to recover their strenght, dignity and feminity, so all discussions about them are pointless. They are outshined and outposed at the moment, get used to it.
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Dynamos
Tavern Dweller
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posted December 19, 2010 07:13 PM |
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As to World of Warcraft race populations, it is my understanding that roughly a third of the players play either a Night or Blood Elf. But who cares about WoW? Naga are a race which are underused enough in fantasy as to have room for new interpretations.
The question isn't about which race deserves to be in the game. They all have a fair chance at it, I think. That being said, I've always found HOMM elves to be a bit boring, personality-wise. There is just a limited scope to the story-telling of isolationist environmentalists. It's always someone invading the forest, or being called upon to help human allies. They need a reboot, and I think that is better left to be done in an expansion, where they can really focus on polishing one or two factions.
As for faction diversity when it comes to creatures, over the HOMM games there have been a lot of factions with creatures that seemed mismatched for them. Wizard in Heroes 2 had boars and rocs. What were dwarves doing with Rampart in HOMM 3? Better have a unit that corresponds to the dominant race in the faction (and tells us more about the faction) than just a mythological unit out of nowhere that doesn't make sense.
The reason the shaman has such a gnarled hand is so he can dip it into the chest of goblins and rip out their still-beating hearts in sacrifice. There, I said it.
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Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
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posted December 19, 2010 07:33 PM |
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Edited by Cepheus at 19:35, 19 Dec 2010.
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Quote: I've always found HOMM elves to be a bit boring, personality-wise. There is just a limited scope to the story-telling of isolationist environmentalists. It's always someone invading the forest, or being called upon to help human allies. They need a reboot
Maybe as a stereotype, but in Heroes? No:
In H1 and 2 the Elves are barely even in the storyline.
In H3 they're at war with the Humans over a small territory, and only manage to forge an alliance for the first time in centuries thanks to an alien invasion. No joke.
In MM7 they're the aggressors, killing Humans by the dozen, and are only forced to stand down thanks to intervention from the Wizards. As a side note, an Elf from another planet shows up and begins trying to create a necromantic cyber-faction, the Heavenly Forge.
In H4, the Elves are locked in a civil war. There is no invasion, and the Human faction has absolutely no involvement at all. In the expansion there is indeed an invasion of the forest - from the Humans.
In H5, the Necromancers are the Elves' main aggressors, but the Humans are, again, secondary attackers destroying the forests.
In Clash of Heroes, the Elves and Humans are at war almost from the word go.
The only games where the Elves and Humans were in a clear alliance were Armageddon's Blade and Clash of the Dragons.
I realise it's a matter of semantics, but it's important to have history in order when calling for a reboot of any sort, just so that you're sure everything's been done before
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"Those who forget their history are inevitably doomed to repeat it." —Proverb, Might and Magic VIII
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Jabanoss
Promising
Legendary Hero
Property of Nightterror™
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posted December 19, 2010 07:45 PM |
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Naaww, why wasn't I here when Nightterror was?
Anyways I take Orcs any day of the week before the Elves, however I still want the both of them in the game. But I'm sure the game will turn out great anyway.
Talking about elven "creatures", the only ones that really needs to be in H6 is the Unicorn and Treant. All the others were pretty lame, yeah I guess the fairy can be made cool too.
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"You turn me on Jaba"
- Meroe
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Dynamos
Tavern Dweller
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posted December 19, 2010 08:39 PM |
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Quote:
Quote: I've always found HOMM elves to be a bit boring, personality-wise. There is just a limited scope to the story-telling of isolationist environmentalists. It's always someone invading the forest, or being called upon to help human allies. They need a reboot
Maybe as a stereotype, but in Heroes? No:
In H1 and 2 the Elves are barely even in the storyline.
In H3 they're at war with the Humans over a small territory, and only manage to forge an alliance for the first time in centuries thanks to an alien invasion. No joke.
In MM7 they're the aggressors, killing Humans by the dozen, and are only forced to stand down thanks to intervention from the Wizards. As a side note, an Elf from another planet shows up and begins trying to create a necromantic cyber-faction, the Heavenly Forge.
In H4, the Elves are locked in a civil war. There is no invasion, and the Human faction has absolutely no involvement at all. In the expansion there is indeed an invasion of the forest - from the Humans.
In H5, the Necromancers are the Elves' main aggressors, but the Humans are, again, secondary attackers destroying the forests.
In Clash of Heroes, the Elves and Humans are at war almost from the word go.
The only games where the Elves and Humans were in a clear alliance were Armageddon's Blade and Clash of the Dragons.
I realise it's a matter of semantics, but it's important to have history in order when calling for a reboot of any sort, just so that you're sure everything's been done before
Well, I think you've read a bit too much into my words
I wasn't giving examples of specific HOMM storylines, just of the type of stories you get with isolationist environmentalists - invasion/allies under fire. I'll admit I was probably thinking of Gelu when I preceded the word allies with "human".
I think the Rampart/Nature faction got its best treatment in HOMM 4, to be honest. They did well in shaking up the faction a bit, both in terms of creatures (and by extension, faction lore) and in terms of gameplay.
I know different isn't always better, but I've grown bored enough with regular elves that I'll settle for different but not worse.
I've played MM7, but it was so long ago I hardly remember it. That Heavenly Forge faction actually sounds pretty interesting.
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Aatos
Adventuring Hero
Heroic Adventurer
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posted December 19, 2010 09:17 PM |
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I'm fine with the new Stronghold faction. I think the artwork looks excellent. The creature lineup is fine as long as they have interesting and synergetic abilities. It would have been nice if they had introduced wyverns, thunderbirds, trolls or ogres and left out the goblins which don't seem like battle creatures to me. I think that tilesets are important for the game because of terrain diversity, but I don't think they should be used to determine factions. Some factions can have their own unique terrain some share a terrain with others and some terrain is neutral. As for the balance between the number of faction race creatures and faction allied creatures, I think that 3+4 or 4+3 would be the best in most cases, and I agree that creatures of the same race should look the same but be differently equiped and have different functions, insead of being differently sized same creature models. Regarding the minor things, I like that the centaur is now elite instead of tier 2 like in H5. I think that most creatures can be male or female as long as their appearance corresponds to their role on the battle field. Warriors should have a battle ready physique and equipment. I don't think that cyclopses should be able to attack by throwing goblins, even if it is just a secondary attack, not just because they have one eye, but also because if you're targeting a stack of 100 units you certainly cannot damage them all by throwing one goblin, and 10 cyclopses cannot throw one goblin unless they cut it to pieces, and a goblin doesn't seem like a lethal projectile. I think that it would be better if cyclopses would throw rocks and have the "no melee penalty" ability, or perhaps have just a melee attack.
I think that humans, elves, dwarves and orcs are all equally important for fantasy games, and that they can all have different roles in different games. Creatures of one race do not all act the same, they consist of individuals who have different personalities. Elves can be fierce warriors, merciless killers and senseless butchers, and Orcs can be caring protectors and kind guardians, depending on how you describe them in the lore.
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To fail to plan is to plan to
fail.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted December 19, 2010 09:53 PM |
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I'll tell you what I'd like to see done with the elves, I'd like to see the clock rewound about 500+ years and them being the bad guys, as they were back then (at least according to the Irish), because these modern goody-two-shoes elves are really friggin' annoying IMO.
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Jabanoss
Promising
Legendary Hero
Property of Nightterror™
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posted December 19, 2010 10:26 PM |
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I want a better mix of evil, good and all that jazz.
Yes I think elves should be evil like in Swedish folklore
It fits them awesomely. Otherwise I don't want a specific race to be pure "evil" or pure "good", the line between them should be more transparent.
I want Orcs that fights for freedom rather then some "generic evil cause"
I want elves that battles humans and all others that dare threaten their woods.
You know I just want all races to have both sides of the coins in their wallet of individuals.
(except maybe in the Inferno, there everyone can be evil)
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"You turn me on Jaba"
- Meroe
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 19, 2010 10:39 PM |
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I do not get why Unicorns HAVE to be in an Elf faction.
Personally, I have always thought that Unicorns are extremly boring creatures. You have a horse, put a horn on it and give it some magical abilities = unicorn.
If they get Unicorns into H6, they should give them a twist. Maybe they are brown with some kind of thorn instead of a horn and maybe they are even elementals and not beasts.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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