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Heroes Community > Heroes 6 - The New Beginning > Thread: ~ Heroes 6 - Discussion thread ~
Thread: ~ Heroes 6 - Discussion thread ~ This Super Thread is 525 pages long: 1 70 140 210 280 ... 318 319 320 321 322 ... 350 420 490 525 · «PREV / NEXT»
Quantomas
Quantomas


Responsible
Famous Hero
AI Wizard
posted April 22, 2011 11:58 AM
Edited by Quantomas at 12:05, 22 Apr 2011.

Most likely balancing is the core issue for the shift of the release date. I have no doubt that Ubisoft was aware of how much effort it is to do the AI balancing proper when they started planning for H6 after they had released the second expansion for H5. Nival was by no means an incompetent developer.

There are many lessons learned from 3DO. Not many know that the Heroes games evolved around an ingenious AI core that links together the interactions and animations on the adventure map, the related UIs (everything that a hero can visit or interact with), the scripting system, and of course path finding and the game balancing logic. It took me a good while to understand how these things work together and once I grasped it I realized what a true technological marvel it is. I am pretty sure that 3DO had a genius AI programmer (or a couple of outstanding programmers working together on this).

You see, the thing is AI balancing is a bit like a Rubik's cube with five rows, you turn one and the entire pattern changes. The systematic solutions for Rubik's cubes came from algrebraic group theory. I have little doubt that the top talent at 3DO had a sophisticated mathematical model (or its equivalent) for their work. It's evident that this drove their design decisions and made H3 the success it was. Somehow these programmers were no longer part of the team (or sidelined) in Heroes IV and the design decisions in this iteration did go clearly awry. It would be valuable research into the history of the games industry to identify the AI programmers who brought us Heroes III and give them the credit they deserve. Maybe something can be found out by checking the game credits and other sources. Anyone?

Back to today, Ubisoft does know that Heroes III was the preeminent turn-based strategy game in its days, and with the markets having grown significantly bigger, that if they can regain this spot that it will be a major commercial success.

It is clear that they carefully and systematically evaluated the designs for Heroes 5, and that they did the same for H6 with the additional lessons learned from the development of H5. I see the simplifications, that they removed things like the caravan system and the summon creatures spell and simplified the resources in the game in this light. It was a constant uphill struggle for Nival to balance the AI and we all know how this ended. Now, even with the simplifications I wouldn't be surprised if Black Hole faces the same uphill struggle every step. The rule base we have in Heroes is truly complex, from varied terrain movement costs, heroes with native terrain affiliation and diverse skills, a wide variety of adventure map objects, towns, buildings, dwellings and creatures with individual perks and stats and on top of that a complex magic system, I'd say that this is at the fringe of complexity we can handle with current technology. To balance an AI for this you need the very best in the industry or you will either fail or end up with workarounds that go only so far.

If we consider the market success of Heroes III and H4 and H5 in comparison, it should be clear that to regain the top spot of the preeminent strategy game it is a requirement to have at least an AI as competent as Heroes III. You can get away with less and still have a success, but it will not make the most of this opportunity.

If the delay is really about balancing the game proper and it is an uphill struggle for the developer, additional time will do good only if they can upgrade significantly the tools and methods they apply given the complexity at hand. I am also alarmed that the repeated shifts of the release date indicates that the development team is already strained to its very limit (to try to meet the initial deadline) and in crunch mode. Probably not the entire team, but the team at the core of the effort. You can do crunch only so long and they might have considered to give everyone a break to be three weeks off for holiday. In this case a longer shift of the release date would indeed be a positive signal, but it's rarely done in the industry to give the team such a break that close before the release, still recommended and highly efficient.

There is also a psychological barrier to consider, which is very important whether the team makes or breaks the project. When they started to develop H6 they had a vision, goals and a team. They were confident that they can reach the goals. If they are now facing an uphill struggle every step, they are in a position not unlike the team that created Heroes IV. Still, they are much better off because Ubisoft has standing power. What we as fans should do, is not bashing Ubisoft or Black Hole because it will lead to more (unproductive) pressure, but give Ubisoft confidence that what we want is the best Heroes game. If they have the confidence that additional effort will ultimately increase the success of the product they will take the right approach. Which says Cepheus is right, and we should think about constructive ways to support this.

From my own position I can offer them my help with the AI if they would have it. Still, I doubt that they can make this step. Again it's a psychological barrier. They believe in what they are doing, and they sort of would need to jump over their own shadow to ask someone else for help, and people rarely can do that. BUT if they would be interested, I could either transfer know-how and mentor the team to do the balancing (I truly understand how the top 3DO talent designed the AI and what math has to be applied) or offer the advanced AI. Now, that the AI is in its own process and H5 and H6 share most of the gameplay rules it would be straightforward to attach it to H6, a week at most. It could then be used to make H6 really fly, automate much of the balancing and allow the content designers to make bolder steps still.

I would do that for their sake and the sake of the Heroes franchise and TBS games in general.

In any case I look forward to what game they truly create, because it is always exciting to see how a well focused effort (no doubts here) transforms the formula of a highly addictive game. Even if they do not get it right on the first attempt, we can always look forward to the expansions. This time we have a unique opportunity, the Heroes 5.5 Eternal Essence project will incorporate new game features that we as a community see as valuable, and this way we can put some gentle competitive pressure on the H6 team to incorporate ideas that we can get to work with true benefits for the game.

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Kenishi
Kenishi


Famous Hero
passed out drunk in Tavern's
posted April 22, 2011 01:25 PM

Quantomas thanks for the input and I really hope you are right about it, but due to the lack of real details they might as well have hit a though wall like finding out something is not work when finishing things up and have to retrace every step backward to find out it's source ... still the extra months will give them the chance to polis it out in more than one way.

    But as all things is a double blade, if they pull out and deliver for 8 of September an amazing game that will make buyers/fans happy the game will do ok , if not that they'll be put to a wall really hard by the community, and most of the reasons for this is due to the way they dealt with the issues and gamers and they way they announced and presented them (even if they had the best of intentions) which wasn't one of the must fortunate one. (all though they made a step forward by taking in fans and create VIP forums and have a dialog through them whit the community)
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No Gods, no Masters. Knowledge is Power, and Power is Freedom

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Fauch
Fauch


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted April 22, 2011 02:46 PM

sometimes I wonder if Elvin is bribed by blackhole, or if they just hacked his account?

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War-overlord
War-overlord


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
posted April 22, 2011 02:51 PM

Quote:
sometimes I wonder if Elvin is bribed by blackhole, or if they just hacked his account?


And the reason for that is?
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torin856
torin856


Hired Hero
posted April 22, 2011 03:21 PM

Is that new screenshot of the week the whole Friday update?

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War-overlord
War-overlord


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
posted April 22, 2011 03:41 PM

Quote:
Is that new screenshot of the week the whole Friday update?


Can't be. The screenshot was up and online yesterday.
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted April 22, 2011 03:52 PM

On the Chinese site apparently.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb

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War-overlord
War-overlord


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
posted April 22, 2011 03:54 PM

Really? Cause I could've sworn I'd seen it on the facebook.
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diegis
diegis


Supreme Hero
power of Zamolxis
posted April 22, 2011 05:22 PM

Is it true? Close beta started yesterday Im hearing...
I suppose nobody involved would admit it, still ... we can dig abit like asking around for a confirmation
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dacian falx behind you
-knowledge itself is power-
www.cabinet-dentaire-malaunay.fr

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Fauch
Fauch


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted April 22, 2011 05:24 PM
Edited by Fauch at 17:33, 22 Apr 2011.

Quote:
Quote:
sometimes I wonder if Elvin is bribed by blackhole, or if they just hacked his account?


And the reason for that is?


one of the few people here who seem always optimistic about H6

well, actually, sometimes it feels like there are 2 sides. people who complain about everything, and people who praise anything the devs do. it's quite funny.

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KingImp
KingImp


Famous Hero
posted April 22, 2011 05:30 PM

Quote:
Is it true? Close beta started yesterday Im hearing...
I suppose nobody involved would admit it, still ... we can dig abit like asking around for a confirmation


If this is true, there better be some explaining to do. Not that they will as it's their M.O. to ignore the community.

If so, then what the hell gives? Exactly what Beta did those of us who pre-ordered sign up for?

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War-overlord
War-overlord


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
posted April 22, 2011 05:32 PM
Edited by War-overlord at 17:34, 22 Apr 2011.

Quote:
If so, then what the hell gives? Exactly what Beta did those of us who pre-ordered sign up for?


The Open Beta-test. If it is true that the insiders are beta-testing right now, than that would mean that a Closed Beta-test is being held before the release of an Open test.

Quote:
one of the few people here who seem always optimistic about H6  


Same has been said about me, for openly not disagreeing with town-windows and saying that the fans don't know what they're talking about. I've also been called a troll for this.
And you do realise that Elvin is part of the insiders forum and has a better view on the development than the rest of us, exclusing Cepheus and Mr. Charles.
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KingImp
KingImp


Famous Hero
posted April 22, 2011 05:36 PM

Quote:
Quote:
If so, then what the hell gives? Exactly what Beta did those of us who pre-ordered sign up for?


The Open Beta-test. If it is true that the insiders are beta-testing right now, than that would mean that a Closed Beta-test is being held before the release of an Open test.


Sorry, but that makes no sense to me. Open betas are just that, open to everyone. How exactly is that a benefit of pre-ordering if everyone is getting it?

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War-overlord
War-overlord


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
posted April 22, 2011 05:46 PM

Quote:
Sorry, but that makes no sense to me. Open betas are just that, open to everyone. How exactly is that a benefit of pre-ordering if everyone is getting it?



No, Open Beta-test are potentially open to everyone. However the developers chose how to select their testers.
In this case by allowing only those who preorder the game. Which, in theory, everyone and their grandma could do. Just like Blizzard doesn't use simply everybody for their Open betas, but a percentage of those who applied and those people who have a positive influence on the publicity. For the other applicants, it's a matter of simple chance.
The closed beta is, in this case, open only to insiders and ubihole-employees.
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Tsar-Ivor
Tsar-Ivor


Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
posted April 22, 2011 05:50 PM

Mmm seriously don't get how you guys can't look at it from Elvin and cephus's point of view, the beta will come when it will and its date will not get realesed any sooner whether were negative about it or positive. I opt for positive tends to make people around me happier ^^


also MrDragon destruction of michael has a 50/50 chance of turning the thralls into emty husks, then where would we be? black-hole aint takin risks.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted April 22, 2011 05:56 PM

Quote:
well, actually, sometimes it feels like there are 2 sides. people who complain about everything, and people who praise anything the devs do.

Not exactly.

Also in cepheus words: Don't believe everything you hear
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb

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Wckey
Wckey


Famous Hero
posted April 22, 2011 06:17 PM

So... no news for today?

I hate to be right.
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Come back soon, Elvin!

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Fauch
Fauch


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted April 22, 2011 07:15 PM

I said sometimes, I do not waste my time reading everything here, but sometimes it looks that way. like the town window thread

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Cepheus
Cepheus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
posted April 22, 2011 07:44 PM

Don't worry fellas, the beta will start very shortly and then there'll be more info than you can handle

I apologise on behalf of everyone that there isn't much news at the moment and that we're still giving nebulous beta dates; I promise it's coming ASAP, so we beg your pardon and your patience.
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"Those who forget their history are inevitably doomed to repeat it." —Proverb, Might and Magic VIII

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MrDragon
MrDragon


Supreme Hero
Eats people with Ketchup
posted April 22, 2011 07:57 PM

Quote:
Don't worry fellas, the beta will start very shortly and then there'll be more info than you can handle

I apologise on behalf of everyone that there isn't much news at the moment and that we're still giving nebulous beta dates; I promise it's coming ASAP, so we beg your pardon and your patience.

Could you ball-park it? like say, is it a few weeks or a month or two/three?

Then again, it's not like it'll come faster if we know, but I'm sure some news right now is better then no news.

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