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Heroes Community > Heroes 6 - The New Beginning > Thread: ~ Heroes 6 - Discussion thread ~
Thread: ~ Heroes 6 - Discussion thread ~ [ This thread is 525 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 (51) 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 191 192 193 194 195 196 197 198 199 200 201 202 203 204 205 206 207 208 209 210 211 212 213 214 215 216 217 218 219 220 221 222 223 224 225 226 227 228 229 230 231 232 233 234 235 236 237 238 239 240 241 242 243 244 245 246 247 248 249 250 251 252 253 254 255 256 257 258 259 260 261 262 263 264 265 266 267 268 269 270 271 272 273 274 275 276 277 278 279 280 281 282 283 284 285 286 287 288 289 290 291 292 293 294 295 296 297 298 299 300 301 302 303 304 305 306 307 308 309 310 311 312 313 314 315 316 317 318 319 320 321 322 323 324 325 326 327 328 329 330 331 332 333 334 335 336 337 338 339 340 341 342 343 344 345 346 347 348 349 350 351 352 353 354 355 356 357 358 359 360 361 362 363 364 365 366 367 368 369 370 371 372 373 374 375 376 377 378 379 380 381 382 383 384 385 386 387 388 389 390 391 392 393 394 395 396 397 398 399 400 401 402 403 404 405 406 407 408 409 410 411 412 413 414 415 416 417 418 419 420 421 422 423 424 425 426 427 428 429 430 431 432 433 434 435 436 437 438 439 440 441 442 443 444 445 446 447 448 449 450 451 452 453 454 455 456 457 458 459 460 461 462 463 464 465 466 467 468 469 470 471 472 473 474 475 476 477 478 479 480 481 482 483 484 485 486 487 488 489 490 491 492 493 494 495 496 497 498 499 500 501 502 503 504 505 506 507 508 509 510 511 512 513 514 515 516 517 518 519 520 521 522 523 524 525 ]
MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted December 12, 2010 06:26 PM
Edited by MattII at 18:28, 12 Dec 2010.

Quote:
I think the H3 system is the best because it is completely free from randomness. It also puts a lot of importance to high speed units, because they allow the hero to act first. When the order of which the hero use to act are decided by the units, it contribute to a nice system.
H3 may have been simple, but I know I was always irked by the fact that every unit got one move per turn, regardless of how fast it actually should have moved. Also, the H5 system allowed for a certain amount of customisation, so you could have a high-initiative, but low-damage unit as a skirmisher, or a low-initiative but high-damage unit as a tanker.

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SwampLord
SwampLord


Supreme Hero
Lord of the Swamp
posted December 12, 2010 07:12 PM
Edited by SwampLord at 19:14, 12 Dec 2010.

Quote:
Quote:
I think the H3 system is the best because it is completely free from randomness. It also puts a lot of importance to high speed units, because they allow the hero to act first. When the order of which the hero use to act are decided by the units, it contribute to a nice system.
H3 may have been simple, but I know I was always irked by the fact that every unit got one move per turn, regardless of how fast it actually should have moved. Also, the H5 system allowed for a certain amount of customisation, so you could have a high-initiative, but low-damage unit as a skirmisher, or a low-initiative but high-damage unit as a tanker.


There were a couple problems with the HV system, too, though:

1)-Randomized starting initiative was really bad. If you can't enter a battle with a strategy already laid out because you don't know what order anything's going to be acting in, that's kinda silly.

2)-Creatures with high initiative could regularly go two or even three times before ones with slower initiative, especially with good morale (which is always present due to how easy HV makes it to max), meaning you get creatures that are never able to move relative to others. While this may make sense from a background perspective, it's horrific ingame, as creatures with low initiative are rendered useless or irrelevant. Creatures that were theoretically tanks because of a low initiative and high HP often ended up kind of irrelevant simply because they would never act to do anything.

3)-Fast creatures could have a low initiative, which makes no sense. So it's really fast moving but somehow slow-reacting?

4)-Heroes being limited to a certain place in the action enabled some spells to become really powerful simply because a hero wouldn't be able to act to dispel or counteract them until the next time they came up in the order.
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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted December 12, 2010 08:50 PM
Edited by MattII at 20:51, 12 Dec 2010.

Quote:
1)-Randomized starting initiative was really bad. If you can't enter a battle with a strategy already laid out because you don't know what order anything's going to be acting in, that's kinda silly.
You had that issue with H3 as well when you and your enemy had the same faction, you had to guess who'd get first go.
Quote:
2)-Creatures with high initiative could regularly go two or even three times before ones with slower initiative, especially with good morale (which is always present due to how easy HV makes it to max), meaning you get creatures that are never able to move relative to others. While this may make sense from a background perspective, it's horrific ingame, as creatures with low initiative are rendered useless or irrelevant. Creatures that were theoretically tanks because of a low initiative and high HP often ended up kind of irrelevant simply because they would never act to do anything.
Okay, this is two separate issues in one, the first is the fact that system didn't receive enough play-testing, and so the bugs (ie, the turn difference between high- and low-initiative creatures was too high) weren't all ironed out, while the second is the fact that most creatures only get one retaliation per turn, so they tend to get absolutely pounded.
Quote:
3)-Fast creatures could have a low initiative, which makes no sense. So it's really fast moving but somehow slow-reacting?
Or taken another way, it's of average speed, but it has a long reload time (ie, a windlass crossbow).
Quote:
4)-Heroes being limited to a certain place in the action enabled some spells to become really powerful simply because a hero wouldn't be able to act to dispel or counteract them until the next time they came up in the order.
This is another issue of not enough play-testing, a wait command would have been a good addition.

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SKPRIMUS
SKPRIMUS


Promising
Supreme Hero
The One and the Prime
posted December 12, 2010 11:06 PM

Having played King's Bounty for a while now which helps me compare H5 back to my H3 days, I'd say:

Originally I was against the removal of a key feature of H5 (creatures' frequency of actions based on initiative).

But now I support going back to each creature having one action per turn & hero able to cast during any of its creature's actions. [H6 is like KB]

While I believe the removal of 1 creature action per turn is a very good idea in itself, the worst side-effect was the heroes having a specified initiative which sometimes led to one hero being directly behind another ==> for light/dark battles without empathy/sorcery, this can be worse than any creature randomness.

If we could have hero spellcasting better organised while keeping creature's different frequency of actions (but less difference in initiative), I'd support that...in reply to Matt & Swamplord, maybe H5 wait should have been less than half a turn or mass spells should take a full turn or maybe a KB/H5 combo:-)
hero can decide to cast or not cast during any of its creature actions:
- if cast, then the next earliest cast would be 10-init equivalent later (earlier if sorcery or empathy)
- if not cast, then hero still has option of casting during any subsequent creature action


The KB system is not perfect as it still has the wait & double-hit exploit, but this seems more palatable than the random hero order problem because it's well known & people can't complain about bad luck order.  There is also added tactic of when to cast the spell for that turn

I'm pretty sure many things from King's Bounty spells were improvements that H6 may incorporate:
- mass spells only at highest magic level for that spell & takes full turn to cast & only last 2 turns
- powerful spells (like hypnosis) only last 2 turns at most with a 'leadership value' limit
- no significant mass +12/-12 adjustments to attack/defence like mass righteous might/suffering/endurance

Maybe spells will be picked up on adventure map & learned via crystals too

@veco: I'm pretty sure that weird action order would only happen when playin' agst Elvin
____________
Hope defeats despair - "a blatant clue"
too many idiots in VW
"to lose is to win, and he who wins shall lose"
bashing orcus

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SwampLord
SwampLord


Supreme Hero
Lord of the Swamp
posted December 13, 2010 02:40 AM
Edited by SwampLord at 02:41, 13 Dec 2010.

Regarding playtesting, I'm honestly not convinced it could have helped that much; the system is inherently very chaotic and complicated.

Speed was perfectly serviceable while being simultaneously clear and easy to understand and account for; initiative feels very muddled and overly complicated by comparison.

Might just be my love for HIII blinding me here, but I really don't see the initiative system proving superior to the speed system, even with playtesting. The fact is that there will always be creatures with low initiative that are rendered even more useless than tepidly slow creatures were in HIII. I thought HIII zombies were bad, and then I met HV ones, where not only are they incredibly slow but your troops will act 3 times for every time the zombies move.

Plus, you have the added problem that many slow creatures are also low initiative. This is just compounded by the fact that morale gives another action sooner, with a chance to trigger morale off that, and so forth.
____________
They can take my swamp, they can take my town, but they will never take my FREEDOM!

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted December 13, 2010 04:01 AM
Edited by MattII at 04:02, 13 Dec 2010.

Quote:
Speed was perfectly serviceable while being simultaneously clear and easy to understand and account for; initiative feels very muddled and overly complicated by comparison.
Speed was also boring-as-hell and really needed replacing.
Quote:
Might just be my love for HIII blinding me here, but I really don't see the initiative system proving superior to the speed system, even with playtesting. The fact is that there will always be creatures with low initiative that are rendered even more useless than tepidly slow creatures were in HIII. I thought HIII zombies were bad, and then I met HV ones, where not only are they incredibly slow but your troops will act 3 times for every time the zombies move.

Plus, you have the added problem that many slow creatures are also low initiative. This is just compounded by the fact that morale gives another action sooner, with a chance to trigger morale off that, and so forth.
Which suggests that the Nivalsoft didn't realise what a humdinger they'd got their hands on, I mean firstly I would have jumped every creature initiative by about 10, close the gaps a bit, and then have a look at everything that that affected initiative, and maybe pump some of the low-initiative creatures up with multiple retaliations. Of course, since initiative is now gone it's useless to speculate on what it could have been like.

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Aatos
Aatos


Adventuring Hero
Heroic Adventurer
posted December 13, 2010 05:16 AM
Edited by Aatos at 05:18, 13 Dec 2010.

I don't know much about game mechanics, but I think that it would be best if every creature would play an equal number of times in combat. The creature's speed would determine the order in which they play. I think that this would be good because every creature would be equaly usefull, and also because every creature would have an equal chance for a positive or negative morale effect to trigger. Heroes would have an opportunity to act every time one of their creatures play, but they would also act once per turn. That way you would be able to counter your enemy's spell right after they cast it. If creatures have the same speed the attacker would play first. The only things which would be able to change the order and frequency of actions would be morale effects, spells, items, skills and abilities. Randomness should be brought to a minimal level and if possible completely removed in my opinion.
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To fail to plan is to plan to
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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted December 13, 2010 05:25 AM

Yeah, and Crossbowmen could pump our the same number of arrows as an archer, despite the fact that realistically they'd only be able to output about 1/3 of what an archer could in the time-frame. The way H3 did it was good enough for those days, but then so was the skill system with a bunch of never-chosen skills and creatures that only received a few stats points when they were upgraded.

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Aatos
Aatos


Adventuring Hero
Heroic Adventurer
posted December 13, 2010 05:34 AM

I don't think that you can compare a game to the real world too much. The bow can fire faster than a crossbow, but the crossbow has better range, power and many other things are different. And any weapon would be able to reload while another stack of creatures plays. If you look at creature stacks as entire armies, then many things would be different and that would probably not be good for the game.
____________
To fail to plan is to plan to
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Ebonite
Ebonite


Adventuring Hero
posted December 13, 2010 05:39 AM

Quote:
Randomness should be brought to a minimal level and if possible completely removed in my opinion.


But where is the fun in that, a game that is totally predictable becomes totally boring. Sure the HV randomness was very unbalanced but then there was fun in that too, adapting to different situations required some thinking (reloads were common too). A balance would be nice but nothing's ever perfect, ill take it however it comes

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There are three kinds of death in this world.  There's heart death, there's brain death, and there's being off the network.

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Elvin
Elvin

Hero of Order
Stillness within Movement
posted December 13, 2010 05:43 AM

There is no reloading in multiplayer nor should a 10 hour game be decided by a unit playing before another that has 2-3 more initiative. I fail to see the fun in that.
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Cry havoc and let slip the goats of war!

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Aatos
Aatos


Adventuring Hero
Heroic Adventurer
posted December 13, 2010 05:44 AM

I think that HoMaM should be based completely on the players skill. The game would not be predictable because you wouldn't know what your opponent is going to do but it would be good if you would know what your creatures are going to do.
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To fail to plan is to plan to
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Ebonite
Ebonite


Adventuring Hero
posted December 13, 2010 05:54 AM

Quote:
There is no reloading in multiplayer nor should a 10 hour game be decided by a unit playing before another that has 2-3 more initiative. I fail to see the fun in that.


Sorry thinking of single player (rarely play multi), and maybe i should rephrase my statement, creature initative was anoying most of the time and i agree there is no fun in losing a 10 hour game because of it but hero placement in the ATB bar provided the fun.  
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There are three kinds of death in this world.  There's heart death, there's brain death, and there's being off the network.

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Kenishi
Kenishi


Known Hero
passed out drunk in Tavern's
posted December 13, 2010 09:07 AM
Edited by Kenishi at 09:08, 13 Dec 2010.

           If I wear to choose a movement system I would go with the system that Disciples 3 Resurrection of Mortis brought, each creature has a give number of Initiative letís say 40, and if another has 35 You can guess well witch one moves first, but here comes the fun part, when moving or attacking you would use only half of it so our creature with 40 Initiative now has 20 an is eligible to move/attack again, the other creature has moved and is left with 15 because he doesnít have at list 20 so he is not eligible to move or attack.
           If worked around a bit with the system it could work for Heroes VI, you could have High speed Top tier with low initiative and lower level tier with high initiative therefore making the use of lower tier units more appealing.
The hero could intervene any given moment like in H3 and older.

Any way canít really give more detail on the mater since I`m not a Russian speaker.
O also the cover system is a interesting idea, the HVI dev. should take a look might find some inspiration.

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No Gods, no Masters. Knowledge is Power, and Power is Freedom

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Properkheldar
Properkheldar


Known Hero
Keeper of books
posted December 13, 2010 09:43 AM

This may be a bit of subject right now but i was checking the timeline a bit.

548 YSD The Peace of New Spring

   * The Holy Falcon Empire forfeits any claim to elven lands and makes extensive reparations. The Dark Elf kingdom's independence is recognized - at sword point - by Elves and Humans, but intermittent hostilities persist across the borders.

564 YSD 2nd Eclipse - Rise of the Demon Sovereign

   * Total lunar eclipse. This time the Blind Brothers had predicted it, and the Alliance, helped by the Dragon Knights, is quick to react. Only a small band of demons manage to escape into the world. The names of the Demon Lords, Urgash's first children, are heard no more. Instead, the name of Mal-Beleth, the new and only Demon Sovereign, appears.

566 YSD Day of the Tears of Fire - Death of Tuidhana

   * A massive fire burns down the Elven capital. The High King Arniel dies in the flames with most of his court. Brythigga, the Mother of Trees, sacred to the Elves, is also consumed by the fire, leaving a blackened scar on the earth where nothing would ever grow again. The loss is devastating.

   * The Dark Elves are blamed and offered exile or death by Arniel's son, Vaniel. Most choose exile; the rest are hunted down and destroyed without mercy. Tuidhana remains with her lands and is killed.

   * The place where Brythigga had stood was stricken from the maps, and to this day no elf will go there. Another Mother of Trees has been consecrated, hidden deep within the forests, but no Elf will speak of her to outsiders.


Based on this it seems like the part in bold probably is the setting of the story for the game. That would suggest that "dragon knights" is the new race. It would make sense since they are a race that secludes itself after it has served its purpose and that it worships the seventh dragon, a disciple of the dragon of order and thus a user of primordial magic. The faction will propably have that as its "magic school". It would also explain why they donīt appear in Homm5, without having to be destroyed in this game. They will be the one in the swampsetting and will (from my perspective) not appear as humans riding dragons but rather lizards/dragonians of some kind. Highly spiritual and neutral in aligmnent only beeing driven by their purpose to stop the demons from destroying ashan.

Sar-Badon founds the Dragon Knights, a martial order disciplined in both body and mind. --> this ties in well to the asian influence aswell with yin and yang and martial training.

Elves will not be the fourth faction since they are destroyed during with the burning down of their capitol and the mother of trees. The wizards though play to big a role in history during this time not to be included, and it covers the rise of necromancy wich have ties to the wizards.


The elves and dark elves will be featured in an expansion covering this timeperiod

585 YSD Discovery of Demon Implication in the Day of the Tears of Fire

   * Dragon Knights bring evidence to the Elves that Brythigga's criminal fire was set by a Demon spy.

    Emissaries are sent from the forest to the wandering Dark Elves, offering amnesty and inviting them to return home. The offer is refused.  

Well, thats what i think anyways...

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blizz
blizz


Known Hero
of temper grace
posted December 13, 2010 10:08 AM

dragon knights as the name already tells you cant be a race, they are more like a group of individuals from different races.

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SwampLord
SwampLord


Supreme Hero
Lord of the Swamp
posted December 13, 2010 10:15 AM
Edited by SwampLord at 10:17, 13 Dec 2010.

Quote:
I don't know much about game mechanics, but I think that it would be best if every creature would play an equal number of times in combat. The creature's speed would determine the order in which they play. I think that this would be good because every creature would be equaly usefull, and also because every creature would have an equal chance for a positive or negative morale effect to trigger. Heroes would have an opportunity to act every time one of their creatures play, but they would also act once per turn. That way you would be able to counter your enemy's spell right after they cast it. If creatures have the same speed the attacker would play first. The only things which would be able to change the order and frequency of actions would be morale effects, spells, items, skills and abilities. Randomness should be brought to a minimal level and if possible completely removed in my opinion.


Agreed; the way morale worked in HV only worsened the problem as if you hadn't come up in the initiative order because someone ahead of you keeps moraling, you are never going to be able to act. In HIII and HII, you could occasionally play twice because of morale, and they would get the same chance later in the turn; in HV you can reliably play like 3 times to their 1, especially given how easy it is to get morale.

Regarding speed, I never found it boring, personally; while I understand that that is certainly a very subjective thing, personal preference will invariably vary greatly.

And are we really bringing realism into HoMM? The game where minotaurs fight laser-shooting cyclopses and dragons battle phoenixes?
____________
They can take my swamp, they can take my town, but they will never take my FREEDOM!

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Orfinn
Orfinn


Supreme Hero
Werewolf Duke
posted December 13, 2010 12:46 PM

Quote:
dragon knights as the name already tells you cant be a race, they are more like a group of individuals from different races.


Thats what I too hope for. Im just so tired of pure race based factions and Knight/Castle/Life/Haven ALWAYS have had an overweight of human units. Only griffins and the horsepart of the cavalier units have been the only non-humans. Its... its just *gah*

Well at least H6 have tried a little bit better. More unnatural, non mortal humans. but still LOOKS like humans. Why couldnt they add some kind of a giant bird, like Roc > Thunderbird?
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evinin
evinin


Supreme Hero
Servant of Asha
posted December 14, 2010 01:43 PM

Quote:
As for the image - the Archangel general perhaps?


Archangel Michael is one of the four original archangels of God and Christianity. He is the Commander of the Army of God. Well, it will be awesome to have him in the game, even if we have to beat him up to Hell.
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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted December 14, 2010 01:58 PM

I know who Michael is. The Haven guys worship a transcended iguana though, not a indescribable omnipotent entity.  

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