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Heroes Community > Heroes 6 - The New Beginning > Thread: ~ Heroes 6 - Discussion thread ~
Thread: ~ Heroes 6 - Discussion thread ~ [ This thread is 525 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 (69) 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 191 192 193 194 195 196 197 198 199 200 201 202 203 204 205 206 207 208 209 210 211 212 213 214 215 216 217 218 219 220 221 222 223 224 225 226 227 228 229 230 231 232 233 234 235 236 237 238 239 240 241 242 243 244 245 246 247 248 249 250 251 252 253 254 255 256 257 258 259 260 261 262 263 264 265 266 267 268 269 270 271 272 273 274 275 276 277 278 279 280 281 282 283 284 285 286 287 288 289 290 291 292 293 294 295 296 297 298 299 300 301 302 303 304 305 306 307 308 309 310 311 312 313 314 315 316 317 318 319 320 321 322 323 324 325 326 327 328 329 330 331 332 333 334 335 336 337 338 339 340 341 342 343 344 345 346 347 348 349 350 351 352 353 354 355 356 357 358 359 360 361 362 363 364 365 366 367 368 369 370 371 372 373 374 375 376 377 378 379 380 381 382 383 384 385 386 387 388 389 390 391 392 393 394 395 396 397 398 399 400 401 402 403 404 405 406 407 408 409 410 411 412 413 414 415 416 417 418 419 420 421 422 423 424 425 426 427 428 429 430 431 432 433 434 435 436 437 438 439 440 441 442 443 444 445 446 447 448 449 450 451 452 453 454 455 456 457 458 459 460 461 462 463 464 465 466 467 468 469 470 471 472 473 474 475 476 477 478 479 480 481 482 483 484 485 486 487 488 489 490 491 492 493 494 495 496 497 498 499 500 501 502 503 504 505 506 507 508 509 510 511 512 513 514 515 516 517 518 519 520 521 522 523 524 525 ]
Jabanoss
Jabanoss


Promising
Legendary Hero
Property of Nightterror™
posted December 19, 2010 11:33 AM
Edited by Jabanoss at 11:40, 19 Dec 2010.

It's really great that they added snow just for variety. Heroes has always been a lot about exploring and adventuring, so the more terrains the better  

Quote:
I encourage respectful discussion, but please be more aware of staying on the right side of the line. There are several members who have been overly aggresive lately, so please try to take it down a notch, so we can keep a pleasant atmosphere.

I'm kinda guess I'm one of those members, so I'm sorry. When I joke I just do it too much sometimes.
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"You turn me on Jaba"
- Meroe

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Jabanoss
Jabanoss


Promising
Legendary Hero
Property of Nightterror™
posted December 19, 2010 11:50 AM

I think that the Orcs lives in some kind of plain-jungle trophic environment. Like you know they live on the outskirts of the jungle, whereas another faction nagas for example live completely in the jungle.
This is my bet, it sounds cool enough.
If you have seen Apocalypto, imagine that the Orcs are the Aztecs and then the Nagas are the ones living completely in the jungle.
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"You turn me on Jaba"
- Meroe

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Cepheus
Cepheus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
posted December 19, 2010 01:16 PM

Yes, Sir Charles has confirmed the Stronghold's terrain for you. So the new faction (yes, it is new) will either occupy the Jungles, Snow or Underground.
____________
"Those who forget their history are inevitably doomed to repeat it." —Proverb, Might and Magic VIII

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Adrius
Adrius


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Stand and fight!
posted December 19, 2010 03:39 PM

That I strongly disbelieve. Almost everyone wants to be a sexy slender elven assassin or something, males included.

And god no more elf variations, I hate them with passion.

Wood elves, dark elves, night elves, blood elves, deep elves, sea elves, winter elves, high elves, low elves, ****-if-i-know-elves...
____________
"I like the patriarchy. I like women."
- JeremiahEmo

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Xevronixussor
Xevronixussor

Tavern Dweller
posted December 19, 2010 04:09 PM

Since there could be a faction that does not have a tileset associated with it, there can be actually not only 6, but 7 factions in the game!

Here's some ideas for the new creatures

Faction: the Terribles

Core unit:

Enemy

Physical description: The Enemy looks like a unit that actually would not necessarily run away from combat or shy away from attacking, which makes them look like being useful in combat, to some extent

Special ability: Can feel animosity towards the opponent's units

Upgrade:

Arch Enemy

Looks like the Enemy but more arched

Core unit 2

Minority

Physical description: Looks somewhat different from all the others

Special ability: Can't really do anything until upgraded

Upgrade:

Majority

Physical description: Looks quite like all the others. Can do anything to Minorities

Elite unit:

Angry

Physical description: Looks rather pissed and quite willing to attack the opponent's units

Special ability: Can walk on its legs and attack with its weapon

Upgrade:

Very Angry

Physical description: Looks downright agitated

Elite unit 2

Flying sht

Physical description: Self-explanatory

Special ability: Can do massive area damage if it hits the fan

Upgrade

Flying fck

Physical description: Has a completely different color scheme than the basic unit

Champion unit

Monster

Physical description: Has a large number of teeth

Special ability: Beats the Cyclops in terms of number of eyes

Upgrade:

Ubermonster

Physical description: Has more teeth than any other unit in the game, including the Monster.

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Yaeliccc
Yaeliccc


Known Hero
Undead, but warm and fuzzy
posted December 19, 2010 04:40 PM

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:

CHAMPION: Sea Monster/Leviathan


Leviathan walkin the earth ??


Yes. In H4 the Sea Monsters managed to do so, so I see no problem. And if you're talking about their locomotion alone, well, we would have to define how the Leviathan would be presented (in terms of anatomy etc.) if it would have a snake-like body, dragon-like head, breathe ice, I see no barrier between this awesome creature being in HOMM (If it has a snake like body, then it's movement wouldn't be any more restrained than that of Naga, or H1 & H2 Hydra ) OK, if you still have doubts...

ANOTHER SOLUTION:

They may have the ability (which would look visually stunning as well) to levitate (Leviathan - levitate? ) above the ground when outside of water, by using some sort of a telekinetic aura! Don't know about you, but I'd love something like that! They ARE Leviathans after all, giving them some supernatural power (at least to aid them moving around) is simply fair.



in homm 4 they attacked only at sea, the whole concept of leviathan is a biblical sea monster... as in needs to be in the sea ! the idea of having a giant aquarium in my army as im walkin across the desert is.... not trying to rain on your parade but even though this is a mythical world they will never have sea monsters walkin the earth... sorry

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Elvin
Elvin

Hero of Order
Stillness within Movement
posted December 19, 2010 04:52 PM

Nice Xevronixussor
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Yaeliccc
Yaeliccc


Known Hero
Undead, but warm and fuzzy
posted December 19, 2010 05:03 PM

homm game without elves is a crazy idea, they've been there from homm 1 all the way to homm 5, i love elves, and find them to be one of the most diverse factions creature wide... orcs, humans, inferno kinda boring, everyone attackin elves coz they are used in every game ? so ? if u have a need to be that unique dont play pc games at all, that will be unique, elves are nice and if u were to stop for a sec and just examine the elves faction as opposed to being anti just coz they are in every other game, u would realize that elves are ok, so yeah enjoy humans, inferno and your orcs just coz u liked their artwork, gameplay is irrelevant to ppl like u after all... thank god necro is still in the game...

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alcibiades
alcibiades

Hero of Order
and Light
posted December 19, 2010 05:15 PM

I'm actually kind of with Nightterror in this whole discussion. I think a fantasy universe should have Humans, Elves, Dwarves and Orcs, overused as it might be - simply because there is a certain element of tradition that defines fantasy worlds (since Tolkien, as Vlaad pointed out).

I like the idea with having a core race for each faction, and personally I'm not so fixated on the exact number of racial units - they can be 1, 2, 3, 4 or even 5 for all I care, as long as they are relevant and believable.

For me, the point about racial units is that they represent different professions within the society - Haven army is the obvious example. Here I should emphasize Haven works because it's not about different kinds of humans, but the same humans doing different things (gender difference none-withstanding). Thus, it's not like the Human on the horse is an oversized super-human being, he's just trained in a different way.

Problem comes with these Orc units, and even worse with H5 Fortress. They don't *look* like the same Orcs (Dwarves) doing different things, suddenly we have small Orcs that do one thing (Mauler), and large Orcs that do another (the guy with the skull and tiger skin). Same with Dwarven Defenders and Thanes from H5.

So let's cut to the bone, if you want a giant bad-ass elite unit, then don't just scale up the Orc model, but pull in something else - call it a Troll, an Ogre, a Giant, or whatever. Or if you want another Orc unit - and I don't have anything agains that - then stick to the regular Orc model, but change the extras (i.e. armor, weapons, whatever else).
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SkrentyzMienty
SkrentyzMienty


Famous Hero
posted December 19, 2010 05:20 PM

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:

CHAMPION: Sea Monster/Leviathan


Leviathan walkin the earth ??


Yes. In H4 the Sea Monsters managed to do so, so I see no problem. And if you're talking about their locomotion alone, well, we would have to define how the Leviathan would be presented (in terms of anatomy etc.) if it would have a snake-like body, dragon-like head, breathe ice, I see no barrier between this awesome creature being in HOMM (If it has a snake like body, then it's movement wouldn't be any more restrained than that of Naga, or H1 & H2 Hydra ) OK, if you still have doubts...

ANOTHER SOLUTION:

They may have the ability (which would look visually stunning as well) to levitate (Leviathan - levitate? ) above the ground when outside of water, by using some sort of a telekinetic aura! Don't know about you, but I'd love something like that! They ARE Leviathans after all, giving them some supernatural power (at least to aid them moving around) is simply fair.



in homm 4 they attacked only at sea, the whole concept of leviathan is a biblical sea monster... as in needs to be in the sea ! the idea of having a giant aquarium in my army as im walkin across the desert is.... not trying to rain on your parade but even though this is a mythical world they will never have sea monsters walkin the earth... sorry


*sigh* I KNOOOOW, that's why I asked to look at my second solution - does that sound bad to you as well?

In H4 they DID attack at sea, BUT they managed to move aboard the ship, how is the wooden ship floor different from ground??

BESIDES, I still stand by my second solution about levitation; I mean, if terrestrials have SHIPS to roam SEAS, why be so discriminative and not give the aquatic faction their "Ship"? Also most of the aquatic faction creatures would have no problem in the first place (e.g. Nagas, Flying Snakes, Troglodytes, Basilisks, Turtles, Myrmidons, Mermaids etc.)

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Omnipotence
Omnipotence


Hired Hero
posted December 19, 2010 05:51 PM

Honestly, I have no problem with the presence of elves. Instead, I have a problem with the way they have been put in the game (specifically H5)

1. Pixie - Tiny fairies that through dust at you... 'nough said...
2. Bladedancer - Thin as a stick, armorless dancers, not very fitting on a battle field...
3. Archer - The one true elf that I love, overused or not, Tolkien or not, elven archers kick @ss!
4. Druid - Meh, not too bad though not with the most thought put into them in my opinion.
5. Unicorn - War-esque unicorns are right there with the archer and can truly be a formidable and potential force (just keep away form the shiny meadow-lovers).
6. Treant - Idea is great, display is terrible. Need to be more ferocious and powerful looking, not like an old bent over grandpa.
7. Green Dragon - Being a dragon it was a bit over used in H5 but either way it did work.

Thus, if pixie were replaced, bladedancer put some meat and armor on, druid spiced up a bit, and the treant built sturdier, elves could be a welcome sight. And, in this format, I would love to see them as I do, as well, believe that they are necessary for any fantasy game.
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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted December 19, 2010 06:05 PM

The elves are hiding ashamed of their defeat by Haven in the Clash of Fashion. It will take at least one expansion pack to recover their strenght, dignity and feminity, so all discussions about them are pointless. They are outshined and outposed at the moment, get used to it.

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Dynamos
Dynamos

Tavern Dweller
posted December 19, 2010 06:13 PM

As to World of Warcraft race populations, it is my understanding that roughly a third of the players play either a Night or Blood Elf. But who cares about WoW? Naga are a race which are underused enough in fantasy as to have room for new interpretations.

The question isn't about which race deserves to be in the game. They all have a fair chance at it, I think. That being said, I've always found HOMM elves to be a bit boring, personality-wise. There is just a limited scope to the story-telling of isolationist environmentalists. It's always someone invading the forest, or being called upon to help human allies. They need a reboot, and I think that is better left to be done in an expansion, where they can really focus on polishing one or two factions.

As for faction diversity when it comes to creatures, over the HOMM games there have been a lot of factions with creatures that seemed mismatched for them. Wizard in Heroes 2 had boars and rocs. What were dwarves doing with Rampart in HOMM 3? Better have a unit that corresponds to the dominant race in the faction (and tells us more about the faction) than just a mythological unit out of nowhere that doesn't make sense.

The reason the shaman has such a gnarled hand is so he can dip it into the chest of goblins and rip out their still-beating hearts in sacrifice. There, I said it.
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Cepheus
Cepheus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
posted December 19, 2010 06:33 PM
Edited by Cepheus at 18:35, 19 Dec 2010.

Quote:
I've always found HOMM elves to be a bit boring, personality-wise. There is just a limited scope to the story-telling of isolationist environmentalists. It's always someone invading the forest, or being called upon to help human allies. They need a reboot


Maybe as a stereotype, but in Heroes? No:

In H1 and 2 the Elves are barely even in the storyline.
In H3 they're at war with the Humans over a small territory, and only manage to forge an alliance for the first time in centuries thanks to an alien invasion. No joke.
In MM7 they're the aggressors, killing Humans by the dozen, and are only forced to stand down thanks to intervention from the Wizards. As a side note, an Elf from another planet shows up and begins trying to create a necromantic cyber-faction, the Heavenly Forge.
In H4, the Elves are locked in a civil war. There is no invasion, and the Human faction has absolutely no involvement at all. In the expansion there is indeed an invasion of the forest - from the Humans.
In H5, the Necromancers are the Elves' main aggressors, but the Humans are, again, secondary attackers destroying the forests.
In Clash of Heroes, the Elves and Humans are at war almost from the word go.

The only games where the Elves and Humans were in a clear alliance were Armageddon's Blade and Clash of the Dragons.

I realise it's a matter of semantics, but it's important to have history in order when calling for a reboot of any sort, just so that you're sure everything's been done before
____________
"Those who forget their history are inevitably doomed to repeat it." —Proverb, Might and Magic VIII

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Jabanoss
Jabanoss


Promising
Legendary Hero
Property of Nightterror™
posted December 19, 2010 06:45 PM

Naaww, why wasn't I here when Nightterror was?

Anyways I take Orcs any day of the week before the Elves, however I still want the both of them in the game. But I'm sure the game will turn out great anyway.

Talking about elven "creatures", the only ones  that really needs to be in H6 is the Unicorn and Treant. All the others were pretty lame, yeah I guess the fairy can be made cool too.
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"You turn me on Jaba"
- Meroe

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Dynamos
Dynamos

Tavern Dweller
posted December 19, 2010 07:39 PM

Quote:
Quote:
I've always found HOMM elves to be a bit boring, personality-wise. There is just a limited scope to the story-telling of isolationist environmentalists. It's always someone invading the forest, or being called upon to help human allies. They need a reboot


Maybe as a stereotype, but in Heroes? No:

In H1 and 2 the Elves are barely even in the storyline.
In H3 they're at war with the Humans over a small territory, and only manage to forge an alliance for the first time in centuries thanks to an alien invasion. No joke.
In MM7 they're the aggressors, killing Humans by the dozen, and are only forced to stand down thanks to intervention from the Wizards. As a side note, an Elf from another planet shows up and begins trying to create a necromantic cyber-faction, the Heavenly Forge.
In H4, the Elves are locked in a civil war. There is no invasion, and the Human faction has absolutely no involvement at all. In the expansion there is indeed an invasion of the forest - from the Humans.
In H5, the Necromancers are the Elves' main aggressors, but the Humans are, again, secondary attackers destroying the forests.
In Clash of Heroes, the Elves and Humans are at war almost from the word go.

The only games where the Elves and Humans were in a clear alliance were Armageddon's Blade and Clash of the Dragons.

I realise it's a matter of semantics, but it's important to have history in order when calling for a reboot of any sort, just so that you're sure everything's been done before


Well, I think you've read a bit too much into my words
I wasn't giving examples of specific HOMM storylines, just of the type of stories you get with isolationist environmentalists - invasion/allies under fire. I'll admit I was probably thinking of Gelu when I preceded the word allies with "human".

I think the Rampart/Nature faction got its best treatment in HOMM 4, to be honest. They did well in shaking up the faction a bit, both in terms of creatures (and by extension, faction lore) and in terms of gameplay.

I know different isn't always better, but I've grown bored enough with regular elves that I'll settle for different but not worse.

I've played MM7, but it was so long ago I hardly remember it. That Heavenly Forge faction actually sounds pretty interesting.
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Aatos
Aatos


Adventuring Hero
Heroic Adventurer
posted December 19, 2010 08:17 PM

I'm fine with the new Stronghold faction. I think the artwork looks excellent. The creature lineup is fine as long as they have interesting and synergetic abilities. It would have been nice if they had introduced wyverns, thunderbirds, trolls or ogres and left out the goblins which don't seem like battle creatures to me. I think that tilesets are important for the game because of terrain diversity, but I don't think they should be used to determine factions. Some factions can have their own unique terrain some share a terrain with others and some terrain is neutral. As for the balance between the number of faction race creatures and faction allied creatures, I think that 3+4 or 4+3 would be the best in most cases, and I agree that creatures of the same race should look the same but be differently equiped and have different functions, insead of being differently sized same creature models. Regarding the minor things, I like that the centaur is now elite instead of tier 2 like in H5. I think that most creatures can be male or female as long as their appearance corresponds to their role on the battle field. Warriors should have a battle ready physique and equipment. I don't think that cyclopses should be able to attack by throwing goblins, even if it is just a secondary attack, not just because they have one eye, but also because if you're targeting a stack of 100 units you certainly cannot damage them all by throwing one goblin, and 10 cyclopses cannot throw one goblin unless they cut it to pieces, and a goblin doesn't seem like a lethal projectile. I think that it would be better if cyclopses would throw rocks and have the "no melee penalty" ability, or perhaps have just a melee attack.

I think that humans, elves, dwarves and orcs are all equally important for fantasy games, and that they can all have different roles in different games. Creatures of one race do not all act the same, they consist of individuals who have different personalities. Elves can be fierce warriors, merciless killers and senseless butchers, and Orcs can be caring protectors and kind guardians, depending on how you describe them in the lore.
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MattII Online
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted December 19, 2010 08:53 PM

I'll tell you what I'd like to see done with the elves, I'd like to see the clock rewound about 500+ years and them being the bad guys, as they were back then (at least according to the Irish), because these modern goody-two-shoes elves are really friggin' annoying IMO.

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Jabanoss
Jabanoss


Promising
Legendary Hero
Property of Nightterror™
posted December 19, 2010 09:26 PM

I want a better mix of evil, good and all that jazz.
Yes I think elves should be evil like in Swedish folklore
It fits them awesomely. Otherwise I don't want a specific race to be pure "evil" or pure "good", the line between them should be more transparent.

I want Orcs that fights for freedom rather then some "generic evil cause"
I want elves that battles humans and all others that dare threaten their woods.
You know I just want all races to have both sides of the coins in their wallet of individuals.
(except maybe in the Inferno, there everyone can be evil)
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"You turn me on Jaba"
- Meroe

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Xerox
Xerox


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
posted December 19, 2010 09:39 PM

I do not get why Unicorns HAVE to be in an Elf faction.

Personally, I have always thought that Unicorns are extremly boring creatures. You have a horse, put a horn on it and give it some magical abilities = unicorn.

If they get Unicorns into H6, they should give them a twist. Maybe they are brown with some kind of thorn instead of a horn and maybe they are even elementals and not beasts.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
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