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Heroes Community > Heroes 6 - The New Beginning > Thread: ~ Heroes 6 - Discussion thread ~
Thread: ~ Heroes 6 - Discussion thread ~ [ This thread is 525 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 (80) 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 191 192 193 194 195 196 197 198 199 200 201 202 203 204 205 206 207 208 209 210 211 212 213 214 215 216 217 218 219 220 221 222 223 224 225 226 227 228 229 230 231 232 233 234 235 236 237 238 239 240 241 242 243 244 245 246 247 248 249 250 251 252 253 254 255 256 257 258 259 260 261 262 263 264 265 266 267 268 269 270 271 272 273 274 275 276 277 278 279 280 281 282 283 284 285 286 287 288 289 290 291 292 293 294 295 296 297 298 299 300 301 302 303 304 305 306 307 308 309 310 311 312 313 314 315 316 317 318 319 320 321 322 323 324 325 326 327 328 329 330 331 332 333 334 335 336 337 338 339 340 341 342 343 344 345 346 347 348 349 350 351 352 353 354 355 356 357 358 359 360 361 362 363 364 365 366 367 368 369 370 371 372 373 374 375 376 377 378 379 380 381 382 383 384 385 386 387 388 389 390 391 392 393 394 395 396 397 398 399 400 401 402 403 404 405 406 407 408 409 410 411 412 413 414 415 416 417 418 419 420 421 422 423 424 425 426 427 428 429 430 431 432 433 434 435 436 437 438 439 440 441 442 443 444 445 446 447 448 449 450 451 452 453 454 455 456 457 458 459 460 461 462 463 464 465 466 467 468 469 470 471 472 473 474 475 476 477 478 479 480 481 482 483 484 485 486 487 488 489 490 491 492 493 494 495 496 497 498 499 500 501 502 503 504 505 506 507 508 509 510 511 512 513 514 515 516 517 518 519 520 521 522 523 524 525 ]
kodial79
kodial79


Promising
Supreme Hero
How'd Phi's Lov't
posted December 26, 2010 03:11 AM
Edited by kodial79 at 03:11, 26 Dec 2010.

Sandor and Sandro are completely unrelated, says me. It would be very stupid otherwise. I don't think Ubi is THAT stupid.

Quote:

I think that the safest thing for them to do is to give a map in which you play with the aforementioned Heroes, a bonus for the 25 anniversary or&#65533; this is wishful thinking some mini campaign from the old series and even the possibility to use Sandro, Crag Hack and others in your hot seat and maps for single and multiplayer and therefore would have no need to mix the pre-Ashan lore with the current one.

Or they could work they&#65533;re brains out and somehow connect the 2 settings, but either way is good from my point of view.



We know for a fact, that heroes called Solmyr, Sandro and Crag Hack exist on Ashan. We don't know yet if they're the same ones.

We know for a fact, that Ashan exists in the same universe as Axeoth and the other worlds of M&M. But being in the other side of the Void, we don't know if any of the Heroes that live in that universe, world travellers or not, are aware of that fact.


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Nelgirith
Nelgirith


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted December 26, 2010 05:17 AM

Quote:
We know for a fact, that Ashan exists in the same universe as Axeoth and the other worlds of M&M.

That's not a fact. H5 was at first supposed to take place in Axeoth and in the continuity of H4, but Ubisoft decided to drop this entirely due to the complexity of the HoMM universe.

Ubisoft has created Ashan from scratch and there's not even a single hint as to Ashan being linked to any of the previous HoMM worlds. Ubisoft might be tempted to create a link in H6 since, as Cepheus said, they're starting to understand that there IS a M&M universe. Better late than never

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kodial79
kodial79


Promising
Supreme Hero
How'd Phi's Lov't
posted December 26, 2010 06:13 AM

Quote:
Quote:
We know for a fact, that Ashan exists in the same universe as Axeoth and the other worlds of M&M.

That's not a fact. H5 was at first supposed to take place in Axeoth and in the continuity of H4, but Ubisoft decided to drop this entirely due to the complexity of the HoMM universe.

Ubisoft has created Ashan from scratch and there's not even a single hint as to Ashan being linked to any of the previous HoMM worlds. Ubisoft might be tempted to create a link in H6 since, as Cepheus said, they're starting to understand that there IS a M&M universe. Better late than never


Yes, they did create Ashan from scratch but Ashan alone. And then they gave it a place in the general Might and Magic Universe. The hints are there when Markal claims that a Sandro was his Master, when he tried to make similar feat as what Sandro did in SoD H3 Campaign.

And like I said in the previous post about the photo section of legendary heroes in facebook (Heroes from 1-4) who live in worlds in the other side of the Void (the Void being the same one mentioned in the Myth of Creation in Ashan's timeline.) That's a definite proof, that Ashan and Axeoth are planets if you will, in the same universe.

That both worlds (Axeoth and Ashan) exist in the same universe, is a fact. That can't be argued with. Debatable is whether a connection has been made already through the various hints given (e.g. Markal and Sandro).



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Elvin Online
Elvin

Hero of Order
Stillness within Movement
posted December 26, 2010 06:18 AM

Umm no. It will be a fact only as long as ubisoft officially confirms it. Besides the old heroes references in the original H5 were admitted to be used as a homage only and ubi had stated it clearly that the old world is no more. So unless they officially overrule that, Ashan is considered the only setting.
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Dexter
Dexter


Known Hero
posted December 26, 2010 07:03 AM

Heroes I till IV presents a science-fiction world, while Heroes V and VI are set in the fantasy world of Ashan. You can't really mix those two. Each creature has a completely different story, and putting everything into one universe simply wouldn't work.

They mention the Heroes since it's nice to see some familiar names. Even if they end up in the game as actual playable characters (which I doubt, unless...) than I suppose they would be similar in terms of character and maybe appearance, but their history would be adjusted to fit the new timeline.

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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted December 26, 2010 07:09 AM
Edited by Zenofex at 07:10, 26 Dec 2010.

As stated multiple times already, at this point the names are just names and we have no reason to believe that Ubisoft are aiming at the reconcilement of the two worlds (which are officially confirmed to be unconnected). They will drop quite a bomb if they announce that, you see, it's not exactly like that. And they'll need a damn good story-writer - well-acquainted with the whole M&M series among other things - to adapt Ashan to the old universe. They have already stated once that this task may prove to be overwhelming for them, but on the other hand - cirumstances change...

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kodial79
kodial79


Promising
Supreme Hero
How'd Phi's Lov't
posted December 26, 2010 07:36 AM
Edited by kodial79 at 07:37, 26 Dec 2010.

Quote:
As stated multiple times already, at this point the names are just names and we have no reason to believe that Ubisoft are aiming at the reconcilement of the two worlds (which are officially confirmed to be unconnected). They will drop quite a bomb if they announce that, you see, it's not exactly like that. And they'll need a damn good story-writer - well-acquainted with the whole M&M series among other things - to adapt Ashan to the old universe. They have already stated once that this task may prove to be overwhelming for them, but on the other hand - cirumstances change...


Well, sorry to say so, Zenofex, but maybe to them it isn't such a big deal and they let it slide just like that.

They don't need any good writers as they don't need to make any connections or cross-overs, they just said it's there. Besides it's not like Ashan is on the same planet as Axeoth or the future of Axeoth like someone said before.

Space is infinite, the probabilities are endless, so I don't see why Ashan can't exist in there too along with the rest.

So I repeat myself for like the dozenth time:

* In Ashan's Timeline, the very first event called the Myth of Creation. In that event, the Void that existed before Ashan was created, is mentioned.

* In Facebook's Might and Magic page, photo section about legendary heroes (Heroes from I-IV), the description text says: A long time ago, on the other side of the Void, legendary heroes lived numerous extraordinary adventures.

Conclusion: There's this Void, whatever it is. On one side is Ashan, on the other side is Axeoth and other old M&M worlds. What's so hard to understand? Forget about the same names (Crag Hack, Sandro, Solmyr etc.) and just think of that... No connection has been made yet (officially at least), they're just there.



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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted December 26, 2010 07:44 AM

If it was that easy, they wouldn't have abandoned Axeoth and the old universe in the first place. You are really reducing this to simple terms just to prove your point. They will need a good writer, familiar with the old world, because otherwise they will make hell of a mess and a lot of people who actually know the story of the previous M&M games will condemn such incompetent efforts. It's quite a tricky thing actually.
And how do you know that Axeoth is "on the other side of the Void"? Where is this written?

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kodial79
kodial79


Promising
Supreme Hero
How'd Phi's Lov't
posted December 26, 2010 07:52 AM

Quote:
If it was that easy, they wouldn't have abandoned Axeoth and the old universe in the first place. You are really reducing this to simple terms just to prove your point. They will need a good writer, familiar with the old world, because otherwise they will make hell of a mess and a lot of people who actually know the story of the previous M&M games will condemn such incompetent efforts. It's quite a tricky thing actually.
And how do you know that Axeoth is "on the other side of the Void"? Where is this written?


You still go on about that good writer thing as if mentioning Ashan in the same universe as Axeoth has to come with a crossover story. What I'm trying to tell you, is that there is no need to be a crossover and no heroes need to traverse from Axeoth to Ashan, to state that they're both in the same cosmos. You just say that they are there in the same universe, and still keep them completely unrelated.

Anyway, that's the link
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=224584&id=161184829587


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veco Online
veco


Legendary Hero
I know it's sudden
posted December 26, 2010 07:59 AM

Hi guys, what's the point of all this? Ubi clearly said that both world are unrelated. Facebook entry ia vague at best. Unless Ubi changes it's position there is nothing to debate on.

Unless you REALLY enjoy theorycrafting.
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kodial79
kodial79


Promising
Supreme Hero
How'd Phi's Lov't
posted December 26, 2010 08:04 AM

Quote:
Hi guys, what's the point of all this? Ubi clearly said that both world are unrelated. Facebook entry ia vague at best. Unless Ubi changes it's position there is nothing to debate on.

Unless you REALLY enjoy theorycrafting.


I do enjoy theorycrafting. And I'm theorycrafting that Ubisoft changed their mind midcourse! XD

Anyway, vague or not, it says what it says. So either we declair it fake or we accept it.
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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted December 26, 2010 08:11 AM

As I said, you are oversimplifying everything. "Just to mention it" is far from enough, the old universe has its own structure which is incompatible with the structure of Ashan as we know it. In order to make it compatible, they need significant knowledge about the structure of the old universe, particularly who are these Ancients, Creators and Kreegans and what are they fighting for, among many other things. Ashan is created by some excessively pompous lizards and this has nothing to do with the world-crafting mechanism described in the old games. Giving an explanation to Asha, Urgash and their creation in the terms of the JVC M&M universe will require an explanation of everything else in the same terms. Which requires the said knowledge.
In the link provided by you there are some pictures, pasted by Marzhin I think. Not a word about Axeoth or anything (and by the way these pictures are related to VARN, CRON, Terra, XEEN, Enroth and Axeoth, not just Axeoth). For all we know, they are placed there for the sake of nostalgia.

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kodial79
kodial79


Promising
Supreme Hero
How'd Phi's Lov't
posted December 26, 2010 08:33 AM

Quote:
As I said, you are oversimplifying everything. "Just to mention it" is far from enough, the old universe has its own structure which is incompatible with the structure of Ashan as we know it. In order to make it compatible, they need significant knowledge about the structure of the old universe, particularly who are these Ancients, Creators and Kreegans and what are they fighting for, among many other things. Ashan is created by some excessively pompous lizards and this has nothing to do with the world-crafting mechanism described in the old games. Giving an explanation to Asha, Urgash and their creation in the terms of the JVC M&M universe will require an explanation of everything else in the same terms. Which requires the said knowledge.
In the link provided by you there are some pictures, pasted by Marzhin I think. Not a word about Axeoth or anything (and by the way these pictures are related to VARN, CRON, Terra, XEEN, Enroth and Axeoth, not just Axeoth). For all we know, they are placed there for the sake of nostalgia.


Ahh, heheh... calling the Dragon Gods "excessively pompous lizards" explains a lot.

So, let me rephrase it so you could probably and finally understand. Ubisoft doesn't care about M&M History, Ubisoft cares only about the money they make, and that doesn't say much about the whole M&M franchise itself.

So, Ubisoft can make decisions like this lightly. So lightly in fact, that they can slide even without proper announcement. And if the HoMM fans don't like it, well lets just say that Ubisoft won't lose any sleep at night.

Me? Having Ashan and Axeoth together makes me happy. I don't care how Axeoth sprang into existence as I found the sci-fi elements of the previous worlds way too silly and I would rather not be reminded of them every time.

By the way I only mention Axeoth but I mean all the rest too. I've mentioned in other posts "and the other M&M worlds".

Bottom line is, for you hardcore dedicated JVC and NWC fans, something like that may be insulting and oversimplifying it. But Ubisoft doesn't care as much as you do so they go and do it anyway.

Now don't blame for that, alright? I'm not siding with Ubisoft any more than you do. I just call them as I see them. I dislike Ubisoft (mostly for their DRM policies though) as much as the next fellow.

Besides, who knows? When and if the time ever comes for a cross-over, they might have came up with a coherent storyline to support it. How can anyone say that they're not able to do that?

Fantasy is unlimited. Even the silliest of things can become a good story if well written. And that's something proven by NWC and JVC in the past, right?

Anyway, Elvin might say no but Cepheus says yes (Or at least probably yes). Both are insiders, right? I googled the phrase from Facebook and found another post in HC with Cepheus citing it and saying that Ashan might not be complete reboot. 22 of DEC.

Cepheus if you read this, please feel free to correct me if I misunderstood.

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Cepheus
Cepheus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
posted December 26, 2010 08:47 AM
Edited by Cepheus at 08:51, 26 Dec 2010.

Quote:
Anyway, Elvin might say no but Cepheus says yes (Or at least probably yes). Both are insiders, right? I googled the phrase from Facebook and found another post in HC with Cepheus citing it and saying that Ashan might not be complete reboot. 22 of DEC.

Cepheus if you read this, please feel free to correct me if I misunderstood.


It's just wishful thinking. Since we don't know much, I can't pre-empt anything beyond giving my best guess. I would be very surprised if it turns out to be one universe. My feeling is just that, since it is an anniversary title, references to the old universe may go beyond some crappy offhand nods to three or four old heroes - it might get sort of like Final Fantasy games where each game is in a new, yet rather familiar, world. But like I said, don't rule things out (except Sandor being Sandro, that's pure nonsense ).
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Orfinn
Orfinn


Supreme Hero
Werewolf Duke
posted December 26, 2010 08:58 AM
Edited by Orfinn at 09:00, 26 Dec 2010.

The sci-fi aspects SHOULD stay within any M&M story, because it was what defined the series an excellent mix of science, technology and fantasy. Besides the gremlins do use some form of technology due to them using hand cannons.

"Oh no!!!!" Please... If you are hardcore/loyal fans then you would understand that tech and fantasy are core to the series and that should really be acceptable. Just crying out loud.

On the other hand.

To make the two worlds of Axeoth and Ahsan be even more connected..
Why not just say that the Ancients created the cosmic egg (which gave life to Urgash and Asha) but had other urgent matters to attend to, so they left the world alone without too much influence on it. Let say that this could have happened in the time when the Kreegans became a serious threat.

Being open minded and trying to creatively, BUT logically mix two different story arcs regarding M&M and HOMM together shouldnt then be so much of a problem.
The KEY for Ubisoft and Black Hole is to get vetereans of the old universe of the teams to help them out and ALSO educte themself in the lore of the past game, I know they might have. But still they could do better. And if doing it right, it would be pure awesomeness


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kodial79
kodial79


Promising
Supreme Hero
How'd Phi's Lov't
posted December 26, 2010 09:01 AM

Quote:
Quote:
Anyway, Elvin might say no but Cepheus says yes (Or at least probably yes). Both are insiders, right? I googled the phrase from Facebook and found another post in HC with Cepheus citing it and saying that Ashan might not be complete reboot. 22 of DEC.

Cepheus if you read this, please feel free to correct me if I misunderstood.


It's just wishful thinking. Since we don't know much, I can't pre-empt anything beyond giving my best guess. I would be very surprised if it turns out to be one universe. My feeling is just that, since it is an anniversary title, references to the old universe may go beyond some crappy offhand nods to three or four old heroes - it might get sort of like Final Fantasy games where each game is in a new, yet rather familiar, world. But like I said, don't rule things out (except Sandor being Sandro, that's pure nonsense ).


If it turns out that Sandor got into some transformation trip like Agrael who became Raelag. And then Sandor becomes Sandro the Master that Markal mentioned... Then I'm not just dropping HoMM once and for all, but I'm gonna go kamikaze on the Ubisoft HQ

It's just wishful thinking for my part too, to be honest. I just feel like I have a strong basis to speculate all of this. Keyword being the Void.

If it pleases the fans of previous installments, we know that Asha and Urgash were created by the Cosmic Egg. The same Ancients who made the previous worlds, could have also made the Cosmic Egg. That's pure... theorycrafting.


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Orfinn
Orfinn


Supreme Hero
Werewolf Duke
posted December 26, 2010 09:12 AM
Edited by Orfinn at 09:15, 26 Dec 2010.

Quote:
Quote:


If it pleases the fans of previous installments, we know that Asha and Urgash were created by the Cosmic Egg. The same Ancients who made the previous worlds, could have also made the Cosmic Egg. That's pure... theorycrafting.




Indeed, but it would be incredible in which that could have happened to a certain degree

@ Zenofex

I agree with your last post. Knowledge IS power to create... and destroy. In this case the knowledge about the old universe should be able to create a strong bond to the new. Universe in terms of game frnachise, yes. But the lore and setting could be easlier explained in a galaxy. Where Ashan could be lightyears away from Axeoth etc.
I just hope they take care of the knowledge and dont destroy the franchise totally...

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Cepheus
Cepheus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
posted December 26, 2010 09:13 AM

Fun theories indeed. Nothing official to suggest that they're true, of course, so I guess I'll simply have to keep lobbying
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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted December 26, 2010 11:03 AM
Edited by Zenofex at 20:43, 26 Dec 2010.

Quote:
Ahh, heheh... calling the Dragon Gods "excessively pompous lizards" explains a lot.

So, let me rephrase it so you could probably and finally understand. Ubisoft doesn't care about M&M History, Ubisoft cares only about the money they make, and that doesn't say much about the whole M&M franchise itself.

So, Ubisoft can make decisions like this lightly. So lightly in fact, that they can slide even without proper announcement. And if the HoMM fans don't like it, well lets just say that Ubisoft won't lose any sleep at night.

Me? Having Ashan and Axeoth together makes me happy. I don't care how Axeoth sprang into existence as I found the sci-fi elements of the previous worlds way too silly and I would rather not be reminded of them every time.

By the way I only mention Axeoth but I mean all the rest too. I've mentioned in other posts "and the other M&M worlds".

Bottom line is, for you hardcore dedicated JVC and NWC fans, something like that may be insulting and oversimplifying it. But Ubisoft doesn't care as much as you do so they go and do it anyway.

Now don't blame for that, alright? I'm not siding with Ubisoft any more than you do. I just call them as I see them. I dislike Ubisoft (mostly for their DRM policies though) as much as the next fellow.

Besides, who knows? When and if the time ever comes for a cross-over, they might have came up with a coherent storyline to support it. How can anyone say that they're not able to do that?

Fantasy is unlimited. Even the silliest of things can become a good story if well written. And that's something proven by NWC and JVC in the past, right?
Your argumentation is flawed and takes an insignificant amount of variables into account, that's why I disagree with you. Sure, Ubisoft are making this for money, only the most naive people will say that they just want to keep the series alive because of the great spiritual and intellectual value of the M&M games, which must be preserved and spread all over the civilized world (or whatever). But here's the problem - they have to convince the potential buyers that the game is worth their money. If they decide to revive the old world, then they want to convince these buyers which yearn for the old universe - the newer "generation" hardly gives a damn about Corak & Co anyway. It's far from enough to "mention" that Ashan, Axeoth, XEEN, etc. exist in the same cosmic space to convince these buyers that this is true when there are tons of discrepancies between Ashan and the old world. Just as successfully you can say that Ashan and our world are part of the same universe and there are heroes named Julius Caesar, Ashurbanibal, Stalin and George Bush on the other side of the Void. Sounds great, eh? So - it will take a lot of efforts and thus it is far more likely to end up with a few familiar names, given to some characters that are somewhat similar to the old heroes, yet not the same, than to re-introduce the old universe. The path of least resistance.
And anyway, until you have a hard proof that they want to merge Ashan's lore with the old lore, there is no point in claiming otherwise. I don't see anything like this at the moment. Speculation is a whole different matter.

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War-overlord
War-overlord


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
posted December 26, 2010 11:09 AM

Personally, I'd like to see Gaius Julius Ceasar lead an army in Ashan. He might even be the first hero that is both likeable and deep.
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