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Heroes Community > Heroes 6 - The New Beginning > Thread: ~ Heroes 6 - Discussion thread ~
Thread: ~ Heroes 6 - Discussion thread ~ [ This thread is 525 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 (82) 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 191 192 193 194 195 196 197 198 199 200 201 202 203 204 205 206 207 208 209 210 211 212 213 214 215 216 217 218 219 220 221 222 223 224 225 226 227 228 229 230 231 232 233 234 235 236 237 238 239 240 241 242 243 244 245 246 247 248 249 250 251 252 253 254 255 256 257 258 259 260 261 262 263 264 265 266 267 268 269 270 271 272 273 274 275 276 277 278 279 280 281 282 283 284 285 286 287 288 289 290 291 292 293 294 295 296 297 298 299 300 301 302 303 304 305 306 307 308 309 310 311 312 313 314 315 316 317 318 319 320 321 322 323 324 325 326 327 328 329 330 331 332 333 334 335 336 337 338 339 340 341 342 343 344 345 346 347 348 349 350 351 352 353 354 355 356 357 358 359 360 361 362 363 364 365 366 367 368 369 370 371 372 373 374 375 376 377 378 379 380 381 382 383 384 385 386 387 388 389 390 391 392 393 394 395 396 397 398 399 400 401 402 403 404 405 406 407 408 409 410 411 412 413 414 415 416 417 418 419 420 421 422 423 424 425 426 427 428 429 430 431 432 433 434 435 436 437 438 439 440 441 442 443 444 445 446 447 448 449 450 451 452 453 454 455 456 457 458 459 460 461 462 463 464 465 466 467 468 469 470 471 472 473 474 475 476 477 478 479 480 481 482 483 484 485 486 487 488 489 490 491 492 493 494 495 496 497 498 499 500 501 502 503 504 505 506 507 508 509 510 511 512 513 514 515 516 517 518 519 520 521 522 523 524 525 ]
Elvin Online
Elvin

Hero of Order
Stillness within Movement
posted December 27, 2010 09:16 PM

I'm pretty sure it just remained because the H5 alternative had a similar model to the angel Chances are Ubi will have a lore excuse though.
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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted December 27, 2010 09:22 PM

Quote:
IMO. It seems that there are at least three groups of fans for this franchise. Making all these arguments here around, quite messy, wild and funny

Die-Hard Loyalists - These fellas want only the old universe of HOMM, M&M and Kings Bounty nothing more. They are very sceptical to new changes, both to lore and gameplay. For example >H4, H5<.

Ignorant Newcomers - Dudes and dudettes who are pretty new to the franchise, having only played a minimum of 1-3 games of either M&M, HOMM and/or Kings Bounty (the old and the new). They feel mostly comfortable with shiny graphics and bland story, they really dont care much of how the franchise was before and could go and suck dust for all they care, bad graphics on them old games you know, "no" gameplay at all..

Abstract Mergers - A mix of the above who have mindblowing experience and ideas for something constructive and try to merge together lore, gameplay and inventions to a logical and pleasing soup for everyone to enjoy from both the old and new regarding the franchise. Also got the hardest vision/job though...

I must say Im of the latter. I want the best of both sides without mistakes


These categories are too simplistic when applied to the real situation. For example, I'm a "die-hard loyalist" when it comes to the lore and will defend the statement that Heroes V is the worst thing that has happened to the series lore-wise with every letter from my posts, but will not accept a remake of the almighty Heroes III gameplay-wise, even though I consider it to be by far the best Heroes to date. I dislike the lack of innovation as much as I dislike adding new stuff just for the sake of it. Many people have difficulties drawing the line between the two though - new is by no means progressive just because it's introduced for the first time and old hardly means clever and adequate just because it's been used several times before. I think many other players can say something similar about themselves. The people who occupy the extreme positions are relatively few and although it's easy to use them as a base to justify one's own view, it will always result in wrong conclusions.
But then again, flame wars are usually fun, so when necessary the grey guys can easily be painted black.

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted December 27, 2010 09:53 PM

Quote:
It's weird for some people saying that H6 is heading in the wrong directions with only having 3 resources and so on and so forth. Trying to make it seem like previous heroes games formula should not be broken and had it right and all of a sudden finding themselves defending those, well then play those and don't play H6 !! Fat chance, they will still play H6 because deep down it gets better and better and they know it.
And apparently some people are dumb enough to believe that any argument against H6 is an argument against progress, yet this is patently untrue, it's just that some of us don't like the way H6 is taking its progression.

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Orfinn
Orfinn


Supreme Hero
Werewolf Duke
posted December 27, 2010 09:56 PM
Edited by Orfinn at 21:57, 27 Dec 2010.

Quote:
Quote:
IMO. It seems that there are at least three groups of fans for this franchise. Making all these arguments here around, quite messy, wild and funny

Die-Hard Loyalists - These fellas want only the old universe of HOMM, M&M and Kings Bounty nothing more. They are very sceptical to new changes, both to lore and gameplay. For example >H4, H5<.

Ignorant Newcomers - Dudes and dudettes who are pretty new to the franchise, having only played a minimum of 1-3 games of either M&M, HOMM and/or Kings Bounty (the old and the new). They feel mostly comfortable with shiny graphics and bland story, they really dont care much of how the franchise was before and could go and suck dust for all they care, bad graphics on them old games you know, "no" gameplay at all..

Abstract Mergers - A mix of the above who have mindblowing experience and ideas for something constructive and try to merge together lore, gameplay and inventions to a logical and pleasing soup for everyone to enjoy from both the old and new regarding the franchise. Also got the hardest vision/job though...

I must say Im of the latter. I want the best of both sides without mistakes


These categories are too simplistic when applied to the real situation. For example, I'm a "die-hard loyalist" when it comes to the lore and will defend the statement that Heroes V is the worst thing that has happened to the series lore-wise with every letter from my posts, but will not accept a remake of the almighty Heroes III gameplay-wise, even though I consider it to be by far the best Heroes to date. I dislike the lack of innovation as much as I dislike adding new stuff just for the sake of it. Many people have difficulties drawing the line between the two though - new is by no means progressive just because it's introduced for the first time and old hardly means clever and adequate just because it's been used several times before. I think many other players can say something similar about themselves. The people who occupy the extreme positions are relatively few and although it's easy to use them as a base to justify one's own view, it will always result in wrong conclusions.
But then again, flame wars are usually fun, so when necessary the grey guys can easily be painted black.



It was just a rough definition of the different fan groups, there will ALWAYS be shades of grey, which yet again creates even new types of fans
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Aatos
Aatos


Adventuring Hero
Heroic Adventurer
posted December 27, 2010 09:57 PM

Quote:
new is by no means progressive just because it's introduced for the first time and old hardly means clever and adequate just because it's been used several times before.


I agree with this. A new game should keep old features only if they were good and add new features only if they are good. They should also make sure that the new and old features work well together.
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vitorsly
vitorsly


Known Hero
Joker!
posted December 27, 2010 10:28 PM

Quote:
Quote:
new is by no means progressive just because it's introduced for the first time and old hardly means clever and adequate just because it's been used several times before.


I agree with this. A new game should keep old features only if they were good and add new features only if they are good. They should also make sure that the new and old features work well together.

What is better Hot or cold?
That depends on the person because everyone is different.
There are people that blieve less resources are good and others believe they are bad.
Some people like the 3 level version while others prefer the 7 levels.
There is not a universal good or bad. It is impossible to please everyon!

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Aatos
Aatos


Adventuring Hero
Heroic Adventurer
posted December 27, 2010 10:44 PM
Edited by Aatos at 22:45, 27 Dec 2010.

There are some things which are a matter of opinion and some things which are a matter of fact.
I think that it is clear that the core, elite and champion system is better than the seven tier system, because the creatures will be closer to each other in power and they will last longer in battles which will make them equally useful and the battles will be longer and more interesting. That is, I think, much better than having a tier seven creature kill a tier one creature in one hit and remove their tactical use form the battle.
Seven resources are better if every faction needs them equally, but if every faction needs a few resources then it is better for those few to be the only ones, because the fight for resources will be more important. It also makes map making easier.
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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted December 27, 2010 11:00 PM

Quote:
There are some things which are a matter of opinion and some things which are a matter of fact.
I think that it is clear that the core, elite and champion system is better than the seven tier system, because the creatures will be closer to each other in power and they will last longer in battles which will make them equally useful and the battles will be longer and more interesting. That is, I think, much better than having a tier seven creature kill a tier one creature in one hit and remove their tactical use form the battle.
Seven resources are better if every faction needs them equally, but if every faction needs a few resources then it is better for those few to be the only ones, because the fight for resources will be more important. It also makes map making easier.
All of that is your opinion, and I don't agree with any of it.

The only things quantifiably better are to do with playability, not game-play, for example, no one will argue that H5 was buggy, slow and imbalanced, yet you'll be hard-pressed to get even a dozen to agree on an issue like whether the new tier system is better than the old one, or whether cutting down the resources was a good idea.

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alcibiades
alcibiades

Hero of Order
and Light
posted December 27, 2010 11:10 PM

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
new is by no means progressive just because it's introduced for the first time and old hardly means clever and adequate just because it's been used several times before.

I agree with this. A new game should keep old features only if they were good and add new features only if they are good. They should also make sure that the new and old features work well together.

What is better Hot or cold?
That depends on the person because everyone is different.
There are people that blieve less resources are good and others believe they are bad.
Some people like the 3 level version while others prefer the 7 levels.
There is not a universal good or bad. It is impossible to please everyon!

While it is true that it's impossible to please everybody, there are evidence of decisions being made just for the sake of having something 'new' and not because there is any specific reason for the new to be better. For an example, look at the Inferno line-up. But we already had that decision a couple of times.
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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted December 27, 2010 11:42 PM

Quote:
Why would you like a seven tier system and why would you like seven resources. If you don't agree, explain.
Okay, for the tier system, 3 tiers with one being champion is simply too few, so I'd suggest a 2-2-2-1 system rather than the current of 3-3-1. For resources, I rather liked Artificier, and I feel it ought to a map-wide skill rather than restricted to a single town, and having only 4 resources would spoil it. Also, frankly, the real failing of the rare resources was that they were so rare, and that if you boosted their availability by say 5-10 times (and wood and ore by the same, and increase the prices of current uses to match) then you could do more with them, like making every creature down to tier 2-3 cost a couple of rare resources each.

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Jabanoss
Jabanoss


Promising
Legendary Hero
Property of Nightterror™
posted December 27, 2010 11:58 PM
Edited by Jabanoss at 00:02, 28 Dec 2010.

Personally I think it's a shame that people have different opinions. Imagine how much easier thing would have been here at HC if everyone just agreed with everyone. One the speak for us all, ANYONE to speak for us all. Everyone would agree, all would be happy. Man that would be awesome

But unfortunately...

In my OPINION the Core/Elite/Champion-systems seems kinda doubtful. Of course I want balance and all units to be useful. But I'm thinking about the price of this new system. It seems that now with Heroes 6 we will be missing some of our most classic units such as Devils, Titans and Dragons. And yeah sure they might still exist in form of bosses, but not as faction units. Why is this?
Well because now each unit has to be put in a category of 3, Core, Elite and Champion. What is the result of this?
That means the units that by lore/graphic should be superior to other units no longer can.
Let me take an example...

Look at the Heroes 3 Inferno, there we have:
1: imps
2: gogs
3: hell hounds
4: demons
5: pit fiends
6: efreets
7: devils

Now if we were to apply the Heroes 6 system, that would mean that imps and hell hounds should be in the same strength-scale. That would mean that they would either have to make the imp stronger and bigger then what it's really supposed to be, or make the Hell hound weaker.
The same can be said about the Demon Vs the Efreet.
Is this good? I mean they sacrifice the uniqueness of the units to make them more similar strength-wise.
Take the H6 Pit Lord for example, it's obvious that they thought it was way to powerful to be put in the Elite-category. So what did they do? they made it Champion.
So now we have a level 6 unit as the Inferno Champion....
(which means no Dragons, Titans, Devils as factions units because now all the sudden they are to powerful)

Anyways my point is, when having a system when you divide all the units in 3 groups, you are doomed to lose the fine lines between the unit levels.
It feels way to strict, as if you only have level 2, 5 and 7 units.


And the change from 7 different resources to 4 is just plain boring. Can't really see how that will be more fun


Note that most of this are just speculations and MY fears with H6. :/
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"You turn me on Jaba"
- Meroe

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Aatos
Aatos


Adventuring Hero
Heroic Adventurer
posted December 28, 2010 12:02 AM
Edited by Aatos at 00:16, 28 Dec 2010.

I was thinking about having creatures other than the champion costing rare resources, but I thought that it would make the game complicated. If you are cut off from a certain resource because the creatures guarding the mine are powerful, or the mine is very distant or some other reason you wouldn't be able to buy creatures. It would have to be balanced well. Gold is produced by the town so it is a sure resource, and wood and ore are usually close to the town and easy to acquire.

Edit: I think that creatures can be made equally powerful without changing their appearance significantly. Like I've said before, creatures need to look ready for battle regarding physique and equipment.
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To fail to plan is to plan to
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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted December 28, 2010 12:09 AM

There are such things as Resource Silos you know, and anyway, between stripping away resources and auto-grabbing every owned (but for some obscure reason not unguarded neutral) mine in your Area of Control, you really reduce the possibility of being able to conduct economic warfare.

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Aatos
Aatos


Adventuring Hero
Heroic Adventurer
posted December 28, 2010 01:14 AM

A resource silo is a mine within a town, I think that the town should not produce resources other than gold, so players are encouraged to capture mines. In H6 there is only Dragon Blood so the resource silo will most probably be gone, and also because all factions will require the same resource economic warfare should be more pronounced.

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted December 28, 2010 01:34 AM
Edited by MattII at 01:36, 28 Dec 2010.

Quote:
A resource silo is a mine within a town, I think that the town should not produce resources other than gold, so players are encouraged to capture mines.
Resource Silos produce barely anything, so the incentive is still there.
Quote:
In H6 there is only Dragon Blood so the resource silo will most probably be gone...
Probably, unfortunately.
Quote:
...and also because all factions will require the same resource economic warfare should be more pronounced.
No, economic warfare will be virtually zero, sieges will be far more common.

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Elodin
Elodin


Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
posted December 28, 2010 04:38 AM

I dislike the reduction in the number of resources.
1) It makes each faction less unique.
2) Less early game strategy. No more hard decisions on what mines you will capture with your limited number of early troops.
3) It will introduce more of a steam-roll factor in the mid-late game as you capture other castles and instantly have compatable resources for your starting castle/troops.
4) No more decisions how much of one rare resource to trade in a marketplace for something you can use now and how much to hold on to for latter use.
5) Less resource management means less strategy.
6) If you get a strong random creature guarding your dragon blood crystal mine you are screwed. Every random level 2 (for example) creature stack will not be equal in power so it can easily be GG early on. Whereas with more resources you can improvise and build a different dwelling that requires a rare resource you do have.

I also dislike only three levels of troop strength.   Ho hummmm.  The first tier is "weak", the second is normal, the third "strong." Bleh.

Another dislike is no more randomization of skills on level up. Having to chose between random skills at level up helps keep the game fresh. Randomization = good. Same old same old = bad.

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mytheroes
mytheroes


Famous Hero
posted December 28, 2010 05:42 AM

We don't know yet how the reduced resources will affect the game, in fact we barely know any gameplay at all at this point. So I think it's better if we reserve judgment until we play the actual game itself rather than making judgment based on what we think will happen.

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted December 28, 2010 06:16 AM

Quote:
We don't know yet how the reduced resources will affect the game, in fact we barely know any gameplay at all at this point.
Actually, we know that the method of learning spells has changed, we know that each faction is getting 4 special buildings, of which only 2 can be built in each town, we know pretty much how Areas of Control are going to work, etc. so it's not like we know nothing.

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Mytical
Mytical

Hero of Order
Chaos seeking Harmony
posted December 28, 2010 06:51 AM

Lets think on it like this. Just for the sake of argument, lets say that you are faced with a choice.  5 towns, with 3-4 resources, and 14 creatures (7 with one upgrade each)..that is very detailed..well thought out and able to be delivered on time relatively bug free.  Or .. 20 towns, 7 resources, 20 creatures each town that might take years to develop and due to cost may NEVER be released.

Of course that isn't going to be the case, but I can see WHY they are taking the direction they are.  Less resources = less coding, as does less creatures.  So they can (theoretically) work on the game play, bugs, etc and still have it out by their deadline.  Understand, that we are not talking unlimited money, unlimited time, and not worrying about making a profit out of it.

Now there are some who will say "Then why not just take previous editions..add better graphics, tweak it, and release it." There are several issues with that.

1) People will say they are just 'milking the cash cow'..and they will lose fans.

2) Not as easy as it sounds.

3) Who wants to just play an old game with enhanced graphics?  Ok .. so I do..but that is beside the point!  ((Right now am replaying Final Fantasy VII )).

As well as problems I haven't even thought of.
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mytheroes
mytheroes


Famous Hero
posted December 28, 2010 07:03 AM
Edited by mytheroes at 07:08, 28 Dec 2010.

Only the most basic of things and those are from words. They haven't even shown us a gameplay video except the Igromir clip and that's unofficial. And you simply won't know how things affect the overall game experience until you actually play the game.

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