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Miru
Supreme Hero
A leaf in the river of time
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posted April 18, 2012 04:15 AM |
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Heroes has a lot more numbers that the player deals with than in Skyrim, but that's only because Heroes target audience is people who like numbers, where as Skyrim targets the casual everyone. In Heroes there are tones of spells with formulas regarding how much damage they do, but in Skyrim it's mostly just damage vs cost. I'll wager that the physics engine and graphics of Skyrim has more complex code that all of heroes put together.
Regarding BH and Ubi, it is obvious we won't get a clear answer for sometime. Ubi never says anything -- snow a person claimed to be from BH and said all kinds of bad things about them on their own forum and they didn't respond to the challenge. It is clear we will not get any word from them anytime soon. BH is stil dealing with the legal issues regarding Ubi and won't (openly) say their side either until they are clear of liability and have no remaining hope to finish what they started.
It's going to take a while for the dust to settle.
What I think would be a more effective inquiry is what exactly happened between Ubi and Nival. I never got the final word on that, what was who's fault. We can expect there was similar actions taken by Ubisoft towards BH as Nival.
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I wish I were employed by a stupendous paragraph, with capitalized English words and expressions.
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ywhtptgtfo
Hired Hero
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posted April 18, 2012 04:36 AM |
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Quote:
I'll wager that the physics engine and graphics of Skyrim has more complex code that all of heroes put together.
In terms of complexity, I am largely referring to coding complexity and I believe the person I was debating with was largely also referring to that. If one has ever modded a recent Elder's Scroll game like Oblivion or Skyrim, he'd realize there are complex layers of abstractions behind the game, ranging from the rendering of cells, objects, and garbage cleanup to the states of various environments, characters, and quests.
This is not to mention there are special scripts and relations between
sets of different abstractions and as well as all the low-level details within the game engine (that's invisible to modders) that deals with physics and optimization.
This is why it sounds pretty absurd for someone to say that a game like Heroes 6 to be even close to Skyrim in terms of complexity at a code/design level - The two games live in completely different levels of existence and that's not just because one's a strategy game and the other's an RPG game.
Quote:
Heroes has a lot more numbers that the player deals with than in Skyrim, but that's only because Heroes target audience is people who like numbers, where as Skyrim targets the casual everyone. In Heroes there are tones of spells with formulas regarding how much damage they do, but in Skyrim it's mostly just damage vs cost.
That's completely correct, although that's not exactly the argument. I do admit that I did go off on a tangent in start talking about game mechanics on the previous post, but the point is about the # of lines of code and complexity of the application.
To add to that thought, some of the most complex games in the world can be implemented with "relatively" few amount of code. Take GO and Chess, for instance. The chess A.I. appears to have already been optimized and I think there are simple and decent GO A.I.'s out there too.
Quote:
What I think would be a more effective inquiry is what exactly happened between Ubi and Nival. I never got the final word on that, what was who's fault. We can expect there was similar actions taken by Ubisoft towards BH as Nival.
Well... maybe invite Mazhin out for lunch and drug him with sodium pentothal. He used to be one of us before he "turned evil". 
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Bitula
Known Hero
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posted April 18, 2012 11:21 AM |
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All the participants can be accused of naivity, but the real one responsible is Ubisoft's business department because they were (and most likely still are) clueless about the complexity of the project and its technical and budget requirements. Unless they learn this, every future Heroes game will be underfunded.
Well hit me with a hammer, but I've never participated in a project where the customer was the one estimating efforts for milestones or change requests. Tomas, when you worked at Nival, was UBI estimating effort or it was your PMs who did it? The first case is simply nonsense... Hard to believe, but well if you say so... Again a "new age" phenomenon then, when customer and developer switch roles, I would never agree to such terms.
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Quique30
Adventuring Hero
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posted April 18, 2012 02:39 PM |
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Posted in the official forums: http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/667480-Blackhole-speaks!
News about this finally reached ears outside the Heroes community.
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KaynaCrous
Adventuring Hero
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posted April 18, 2012 09:15 PM |
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Some UBISUCK members surfing the web and writing lies over forums wouldnt surprise me at all. Many UBICOCK games on EBgames are rated 10/10 by some fake dude saying they re the perfect game, often writing in a large and vague style like :
Game of the year! Must buy! Fun for the whole family!
lol Im not buying anything from Ubisoft ever, and if you want an ubisoft game without giving them money, just buy it already used from someone else, they dont get more money and you reimburse a disgruntled customer some of the money they wasted.
*shrug*
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ChaosDragon
Famous Hero
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posted April 18, 2012 10:50 PM |
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Quote:
All the participants can be accused of naivity, but the real one responsible is Ubisoft's business department because they were (and most likely still are) clueless about the complexity of the project and its technical and budget requirements. Unless they learn this, every future Heroes game will be underfunded.
From a programmer point of view, it seems they never learn, replacing BH is a bad move, if not the worst.
In all my experience as a game programmer, one of the rules that applies to all type of programmer is, it is very hard to make a programmer get used and adapt to another programmer's code without his assistance, let alone improving it. Look at patch 1.3 content, worse than 1.2 and takes longer to produce, which explain the time Limbic need to get used to BH's code without BH assistance (assuming that BH statement is true that they were not involved in patch 1.3, which is true i think).
If it is true that Limbic only involved in the latter stage of H6 development, i fear only the worst for the future of H6. Bigger company doesn't always means bigger brain power (don't forget that this brain power also counts as resources).
And it will take 3-7 months (or maybe worse) for Limbic only to get used to BH's code to be able to easily make a modification and improvement to BH's code without degrading even further assuming Limbic did start to participate 20 months from the start, but imho they will choose to do both adapting and improving at the same time, which is bad, patch 1.3 is a testament to that.
This is just from programmer point of view, UBI decisions is what matter the most though.
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ywhtptgtfo
Hired Hero
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posted April 18, 2012 11:09 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
In all my experience as a game programmer, one of the rules that applies to all type of programmer is, it is very hard to make a programmer get used and adapt to another programmer's code without his assistance, let alone improving it.
Yes, especially if BH's code is messy and inefficient. Let's just say not every industrial-grade softwares have codes that are written in a way that can be considered as "textbook quality" (but TBH, I don't always write code at that quality either).
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Miru
Supreme Hero
A leaf in the river of time
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posted April 19, 2012 09:15 AM |
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Is anyone else disturbed by the fact that this thread is practically half people with no yellow stars?
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I wish I were employed by a stupendous paragraph, with capitalized English words and expressions.
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avalon00x
Bad-mannered
Known Hero
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posted April 19, 2012 12:01 PM |
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Quote:
Is anyone else disturbed by the fact that this thread is practically half people with no yellow stars?
straight from the faq.
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An amount of yellow stars held by a member does not illustrate his importance nor quality of his ideas, it only illustrates the amount of posts made by that member.
and now we see you further proving this statement by adding noting but.. spam just like me. now if you would kindly not intrude on the gentlemen discussing without adding anything of any relevance that would be awesome, thank you!
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted April 19, 2012 05:32 PM |
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For those wanting to know more aboutthe relations between the developer and the publisher in regards the ways to create a game, or how it can be done otherwise follow this link: Extra Credits: Crowdfunding
Do it. The people at Extra Credits are well respected for what they do.
(And maybe, you'll rethink some things you've read here and your opinion on the subject.)
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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ywhtptgtfo
Hired Hero
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posted April 19, 2012 08:43 PM |
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Are you the same War-Overlord as that Canadian kid who wanted own a real sword? Just asking, even though your profile said you are from the Dutch Republic.
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ywhtptgtfo
Hired Hero
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posted April 19, 2012 08:57 PM |
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By the way, Mister Derpson appears to have deleted his posts (as if we'd forget what he said). Would the moderators/anyone kindly repost what he said? Even though his identity is never verified, I think a record of his words should be kept until his connection to BH has been officially denied.
Also, I find that he has exited the discussion far too early with too many questions unaddressed. Based on what I've read so far, I am not convinced about the notion that BH is blameless in this fiasco, although I do buy that Ubisoft has been a horrible publisher and potentially clueless about how to manage this genre.
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krs
Famous Hero
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posted April 19, 2012 09:37 PM |
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Edited by krs at 21:38, 19 Apr 2012.
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So did they deliver in 1.3?
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Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
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posted April 19, 2012 10:12 PM |
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Quote:
By the way, Mister Derpson appears to have deleted his posts (as if we'd forget what he said). Would the moderators/anyone kindly repost what he said?
Unfortunately, the board software doesn't enable retrievals, and I don't have any of his recent posts saved (hopefully someone else was quick enough).
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"Those who forget their history are inevitably doomed to repeat it." —Proverb, Might and Magic VIII
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted April 19, 2012 11:01 PM |
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If he is indeed from BH, his behavior contradicts his accusations.
Nice avatar, Cepheus.
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Era II mods and utilities
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Brukernavn
Hero of Order
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posted April 19, 2012 11:13 PM |
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Quote:
If he is indeed from BH, his behavior contradicts his accusations.
How so?
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted April 19, 2012 11:16 PM |
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I mean, deleting all your posts after everyone replied to, is not the best proof of being trustworthy.
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Era II mods and utilities
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted April 19, 2012 11:17 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
If he is indeed from BH, his behavior contradicts his accusations.
How so?
He creates an image of an innocent BH, who is entirely without blame, led into a trap by Ubi, playing the role of the Spawn of Lucifer, who delights in BH's misery. Every fault, all blame is heaped on Ubi.
My own opinion:
I don't believe Ubisoft are saint and there are plenty things they are to blame for. But I find the notion that they are evil absurd.
And I believe that BH had good intentions, but they are not without blame themselves.
Quote:
I mean, deleting all your posts after everyone replied to, is not the best proof of being trustworthy.
And that. And blaming people, who are questioning his posts, to be propagandists funded by Ubisoft.
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
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posted April 19, 2012 11:31 PM |
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His style and actions are perfectly consistent with those of certain Black Hole personnel I have interacted with, down to a tee. Including the comically delayed post removal stuff. But who knows.
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"Those who forget their history are inevitably doomed to repeat it." —Proverb, Might and Magic VIII
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Quique30
Adventuring Hero
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posted April 20, 2012 01:01 AM |
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Odd move.
A pitty, because I sympathized with his goal trying to defend the developer side where no one else would. Even in knowing that it would be a biased defense, I thought it was necessary. It's strange to me, that people tend to aim their darts mostly at the developer instead of the company that's actually selling you the game.
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This thread is pages long: 
