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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted May 27, 2013 03:10 AM |
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Sources are like OSM posters, they contradict each other until starvation. If I provide a link, you will provide another and so on, what for? I only stated what I think, without silly "clicky".
Now, if you want one, HERE IS. Not that it will help the discussion advance, but if that is your pattern, go ahead. You won't like it, as it shows how Christianity also declines in favor of Islam.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 27, 2013 09:35 AM |
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EDITED DUE TO THE POLITE REQUEST OF A COMMUNITY MEMBER:
We face a different problem here:
Western European (and US as well) societies meanwhile, after a couple dozen years of secularization, live under rules that in many ways contradict the moral and societal rules the main religions teach, mainly when it comes to gender roles, sex, contraception and so on.
On the surface everything would be alright, if the secular society and the religious society would simply ignore each other: just because the secular society ALLOWS a certain freedom, its members are not obligated to make use of them, while on the other hand the members of a certain religion may well have an opinion about the morality of life of members of their own religion, but not of those who are NOT.
But that's only on the surface, because people are not FREELY choosing; instead children are already educated from the beginning - and this a bad thing where the religious education clashes with the general rights of society: if man and woman are secularly equal, but religion teaches that a wife has to obey her husband, then that teaching is ... unconstitutional.
Teaching that is not different from teaching a superiority of whites over blacks, for example.
I don't think this was an issue, if everyone would grow up and be educated in a constitutional way and then, as an adult, would voluntarily pick that for him or her, but as it is, this whole behavior and thinking pattern is learned as a child.
If we call this belligerently a "war", then it is fought in our public schools. There may not be a democratic, constitutional way to change this, but we can make laws that force immigrants to learn the language and to send their children to a public school, where the quality of the classes should teach the children alternatives to what they learn from their parents, when it comes to stone age morals [added]that are rooted in the Stone Age; this is true for all religions, mind you, not only for the muslimic one [/added].
We must simply assimilate them by teaching them OUR values, so SCHOOLS become elementary and extremely important, which is where a lot more money should flow.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted May 27, 2013 10:09 AM |
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Edited by Elodin at 10:14, 27 May 2013.
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The idea that Islam will ever take over Europe is silly and cowardly. As horrible as Islam and muslims sometimes can be, the islamophobes are actually THE REAL THREAT to western culture. Provided of course that society does not **** on itself by how it deals with muslim immigrants.
I agree that xenophobia is a greater threat to a nation than Islamic immigration. American manages to mix different cultures, races, and creeds without too much trouble so maybe Europe needs to take a look at American to see how we do it. If the community Muslims immigrate to has disdain for them you can hardly expect the Muslims to become an integrated part of society. And certainly there should be tolerance and respect for cultural and religious differences.
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We must simply assimilate them by teaching them OUR values, so SCHOOLS become elementary and extremely important, which is where a lot more money should flow.
Which values are those, JJ? Not every non-Muslim in Germany shares the same values. I hate to think of school children being indoctrinated into a value system set in place by the state and forbidding parents to teach their own children their values. That is not anything approaching freedom in my opinion. In fact, in my opinion, not only is that an extreme lack of tolerance such a system leads to less and less freedom in all areas of our lives. If the state can dictate what we are to think about moral issues it can essentially brainwash us in every category of our thoughts.
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Revelation
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted May 27, 2013 10:21 AM |
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I have some questions about Germany on that since it's different from both US and France examples. Now, back in the 60's Germany needed cheap labor for its economical revival, the Turkish immigrants sent from here were the most uneducated and poor people of the country, however, unlike the situation in France, they had no historical conflict with Germany since Turkey has never been a colony and it was even allies with Germany in the First World War. 1960's is 50 years ago and you have 3rd-5th generation muslims there. When I look, on one side I see people like Fatin Akin (A talented director who describes himself as a German, although if you watch his films you can clearly see he is very much in touch with his Turkish roots too) or Sibel Kekilli (Everybody here knows her from Game of Thrones, she's the midget's lover, just think of her sex scenes and how a religious muslim would not do that) yet on the other hand I also read about Turkish-German muslims who are even more religious than their relatives in the motherland. I guess that would be the reaction to assimilation in some cases but what I really wonder is if the divide is among the generations or are the younger generations divided among themselves too?
I don't know, if you live in a small town or a big city in Germany and even if it's a big city, it may not be one of the cities that contain Turkish population but if it is, what are your observations?
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 27, 2013 10:24 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
We must simply assimilate them by teaching them OUR values, so SCHOOLS become elementary and extremely important, which is where a lot more money should flow.
Which values are those, JJ? Not every non-Muslim in Germany shares the same values. I hate to think of school children being indoctrinated into a value system set in place by the state and forbidding parents to teach their own children their values. That is not anything approaching freedom in my opinion. In fact, in my opinion, not only is that an extreme lack of tolerance such a system leads to less and less freedom in all areas of our lives. If the state can dictate what we are to think about moral issues it can essentially brainwash us in every category of our thoughts.
YOU ARE DOING IT AGAIN! Reading, quoting and answering only the half that you want to see. The FULL QUOTE is:
Quote:
I don't think this was an issue, if everyone would grow up and be educated in a constitutional way and then, as an adult, would voluntarily pick that for him or her, but as it is, this whole behavior and thinking pattern is learned as a child.
If we call this belligerently a "war", then it is fought in our public schools. There may not be a democratic, constitutional way to change this, but we can make laws that force immigrants to learn the language and to send their children to a public school, where the quality of the classes should teach the children alternatives to what they learn from their parents, when it comes to stone age morals [added]that are rooted in the Stone Age; this is true for all religions, mind you, not only for the muslimic one [/added].
We must simply assimilate them by teaching them OUR values, so SCHOOLS become elementary and extremely important, which is where a lot more money should flow.
This means, that there is actually no democratic, constitutional way to forbid or steer parental education, but society can offer at least an alternative to those children, by teaching them what the rest of society thinks - a different point of view -, which may or may not allow them later to fit in, voluntarily shedding that morals part that has its roots in the Stone Age. Evolutionary change by offering and teaching positive alternatives.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 27, 2013 10:28 AM |
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Quote:
what are your observations?
My observations are that there are no more problems than we have with football hooligans. There may be problems here and there, but they are individual in nature.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted May 27, 2013 10:43 AM |
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Indoctrinating children from age when they can't really form their own opinions hardly has anything to do with freedom. A very good illustration from the comics thread:
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted May 27, 2013 10:46 AM |
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Quote:
I also find the post he edited about "stone age" morals to be even more provocative than previously. Saying that religious parents teach their children stone age morals or "morals rooted in the stone age" as he edited it to, is extremely provocative and very disrespectful to persons of every religion.
Well, Elodin, YOU are the one who says mankind have been subject to the same moral norms since the beginning, why do you take offense when someone dates their roots back to Stone Age? You can't have it both ways you know, morality either evolves or it doesn't. And if it doesn't, we indeed share our Stone Age ancestors' moral imperatives.
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Elodin
Promising
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Free Thinker
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posted May 27, 2013 11:09 AM |
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Quote:
YOU ARE DOING IT AGAIN! Reading, quoting and answering only the half that you want to see.
No, I believe I fully understood you, and your thoughts on the matter concerns me greatly.
Quote:
This means, that there is actually no democratic, constitutional way to forbid or steer parental education, but society can offer at least an alternative to those children, by teaching them what the rest of society thinks - a different point of view -, which may or may not allow them later to fit in, voluntarily shedding that morals part that has its roots in the Stone Age. Evolutionary change by offering and teaching positive alternatives.
I am quite certain that all non-religious people in France don't think the same things and share the same values. And I'd certainly not describe the morals of non-religious people as being more evolved than the thinking or morality of religious people.
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Doomforge
Admirable
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Retired Hero
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posted May 27, 2013 12:29 PM |
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Quote:
I hate to think of school children being indoctrinated into a value system set in place by the state and forbidding parents to teach their own children their values.
What's the difference between indoctrination by parents and indoctrination by the state?
Parents ruined many kids' lives by raising them as spiteful, racist bigots. But you seem not to care for that.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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Elodin
Promising
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Free Thinker
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posted May 27, 2013 12:57 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
I hate to think of school children being indoctrinated into a value system set in place by the state and forbidding parents to teach their own children their values.
What's the difference between indoctrination by parents and indoctrination by the state?
Parents ruined many kids' lives by raising them as spiteful, racist bigots. But you seem not to care for that.
States run by Lenin, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, ect ruined many kids lives by raising them as spiteful, racist, anti-theist bigots. Neither the state nor parents are perfect or have perfect teachings.
I believe parental rights and think parents by in large will do a much better job of teaching their children morals than public school teachers indoctrinating children with a code dreamed up by politicians/bureaucrats.
Muslims have a right to teach their children Islamic beliefs. Atheists have a right to teach their children their beleifs. Christians have a right to teach their children their beliefs. Democrats have a right to teach their children the beliefs of the democrat party. Ect.
If a society try to force a culture on the children of Muslim children that parents reject society is creating hostility, and rightfully so. Notice I did not say an excuse for violence because there is no excuse for that.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted May 27, 2013 01:11 PM |
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Quote:
I believe parental rights and think parents by in large will do a much better job of teaching their children morals than public school teachers indoctrinating children with a code dreamed up by politicians/bureaucrats.
Because the parents don't believe in dreamed up codes?
Quote:
Muslims have a right to teach their children Islamic beliefs. Atheists have a right to teach their children their beleifs. Christians have a right to teach their children their beliefs. Democrats have a right to teach their children the beliefs of the democrat party. Ect.
Yes, and the kid has the right to make up its mind about what to believe in. When you install your beliefs in its mind during the ages when it is most susceptible to external influence, you're essentially taking away that right. Or maybe you've left your children decide for themselves whether they will be Christians, Muslims, Confucians or atheists?
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted May 27, 2013 01:11 PM |
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Edited by artu at 13:14, 27 May 2013.
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Muslims have a right to teach their children Islamic beliefs. Atheists have a right to teach their children their beleifs. Christians have a right to teach their children their beliefs. Democrats have a right to teach their children the beliefs of the democrat party. Ect.
But he didn't mention to outlaw muslims teaching their values to their children, he mentioned teaching also the alternative, than you objected by saying there is no "more evolved" morals. So to you, if there is a religion who commands women to obey their husbands, even after that religion's dogma, when there has been some concrete changes in the world like women's right movements, participation of women in education and labor etc etc and even if those changes had solid effect on our moral norms, the dogma of obeying your husband is as evolved as gender equality?
Religious people can adopt their morals to a degree, but that's another story.
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted May 27, 2013 02:32 PM |
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States run by Lenin, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, ect ruined many kids lives by raising them as spiteful, racist, anti-theist bigots. Neither the state nor parents are perfect or have perfect teachings.
And now name some democratic leaders who have done the same?
It's like taking Charles Manson as a typical example for a father who teaches his kid about religion.
Stop searching extreme examples only Elodin...this won't work.
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Elodin
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Free Thinker
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posted May 27, 2013 03:09 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
States run by Lenin, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, ect ruined many kids lives by raising them as spiteful, racist, anti-theist bigots. Neither the state nor parents are perfect or have perfect teachings.
And now name some democratic leaders who have done the same?
It's like taking Charles Manson as a typical example for a father who teaches his kid about religion.
Stop searching extreme examples only Elodin...this won't work.
My post was in response to Doom saying:
Quote:
Parents ruined many kids' lives by raising them as spiteful, racist bigots. But you seem not to care for that.
Trying to say the State should be the one to teach children morals because some parents are racist bigots assumes the State would always teach correctly. It would not. Parents at least teach things that they believe to be correct. The State will indoctrinate children with things that it feels will give the State power over the citizens and for other reasons of political gain.
My examples were certainly no more "extreme" than Doom's.
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Zenofex
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Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted May 27, 2013 03:18 PM |
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And what if the state has an official policy that everyone should be given the opportunity to decide for him/herself what to believe in? It certainly overrides the parental type of indoctrination but is it still bad?
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fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 27, 2013 03:33 PM |
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted May 27, 2013 04:38 PM |
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<imo> Today you would have to completely isolate a child from society in all its forms to control the mind of a child.
The "pull" from societies have been too strong for a long time for any real control over children...without the lock-up. Who's not heard of the Preacher's son that's a terror on two feet? Or the flip-side, an Atheist's son/daughter joins a church? Today, I think the "Piper" is a huge network and not one skipping chap
i.e. I know and have known several families over the years that sent their kids to Catholic-schools, however, I discovered those kids knew anything I did (sometimes more) and I always attended public schools; and that was long before the Internet, cable and the today's, ahem...freedom.
As a father, what I kept bumping into with my children and their many friends; was that the children "often" carried a nasty-attitude that they were superior to their parents and it usually didn't matter what their parents pushed.
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GunFred
Supreme Hero
Sexy Manticore
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posted May 27, 2013 04:57 PM |
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Proper secular schools do not teach kids ideological truth, only basic right and wrong and plain facts about subject like math, history and language among many. Little to no indoctrination there.
I am telling you guys. Muslims WILL adapt to european society and they will not overwhelm Europe with numbers.
- Muslim immigrants would not move to non-islamic nations if they were not unsatesfied with their own homelands. They often come from war torn countries, seeking a better and safe life but of course they would not just abandon their beliefs and customs just like that.
- Muslims are selfish and more or less smart humans just like us. They will quickly catch on that they do not need 10 children and that they are happier and healthier in smaller families.
- Close to no non-muslim will convert to Islam so only way the religion can spread is through their children. And those children will not outnumber centuries of european breeding without depopulating muslim countries.
- Islamic indoctrination is not best beaten by counter-indoctrination or mocking. As the muslims live in our society they will be exposed to our culture and ways. Instead of putting them into poor ghettos where they live in their own islamic bubbles which is bound to cause culture conflicts, give them help and encouragement through programs and stuff to spread out and be exposed to us and they will see things in the secular and tolerant way.
- Violence and other evil acts excused by Islam is usually towards other muslims. So it is important to make it clear that EVERYONE are equal before the laws and that you can not create your own laws that overwrite the national laws. No prejudice, no special treatment.
- Even if Islam along with other religions and ideologies can be pretty awful, do not have a hostile attitude at default. Make them want to like you, give them a chance and they will do the same. Nobody want to be told that their culture and ideology is evil and corrupt. It hurts their pride and they will hold on to it even harder in defiance without any way to escape without sacreficing their dignity and pride.
So instead of panicing to fearmongering propaganda about an external thread like Islam, worry about the internal threat/poison of xenophobic and fearmongering ideologies. Just opening a history book should provide enough wisdom to understand that those ideologies are not good for you nor your people. It is like meeting a barking and angry dog. The hard way is to try to deal with it in a peaceful way and make it more friendly towards you somehow. The easy way is to just shoot it to death but in return get morality cancer.
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xerox
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posted May 27, 2013 06:43 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 18:45, 27 May 2013.
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I don't agree with Elodin. Children have as much right to liberty as their parents. They should not be forced to be taught whatever their parents want to teach them without having an alternative that questions such doctrine.
No, government should not spy on parents to ensure that they raise their children in a "proper way". Because government can not determinate what it is the best way to raise a child. Government can not determinate what is the best type of education. Instead religious home schooling should be outlawed and government should finance - not control - a variety of different, secular schools.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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