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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: Muslims Causing Trouble?
Thread: Muslims Causing Trouble? This thread is 47 pages long: 1 10 ... 19 20 21 22 23 ... 30 40 47 · «PREV / NEXT»
xerox
xerox


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
posted May 26, 2013 03:55 PM
Edited by xerox at 16:03, 26 May 2013.

Hmm. I wonder how the situation (from that clip) got so dire in the UK. Though obviously, you also need to put the spotlight on the other extreme. The not anti-islamist but anti-islam, far right groups that are demonstrating aswell.

So far, we haven't had shariah demonstrations in Sweden. Nearly all muslims I meet have secular values in the sense that they don't want religion to influence law and politics. Perhaps Sweden is being somewhat successful when it comes to the value aspects of integration after all. Though some of the things being taught at the mosques are problematic. Maybe we need an imam license or something like that.
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Elodin
Elodin


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posted May 26, 2013 06:45 PM
Edited by Elodin at 18:46, 26 May 2013.

I don't think government has any business determining who can be a member of the clergy of any religion. That is what went on in the USSR after they decided to stop murdering/sending clergy to concentration camps to have clergy preach state propaganda.

Like I said, I think "Average Joe" Muslim poses no threat.

Let's say the West were at war with a race of blue Martians and also had blue Martians living peaceably among us. And let's say periodically blue Martians who in every way look like the peaceable ones approach people on the streets normally, as if they were our peace-loving neighbors and then suddenly when the Blue Martians got within striking distance the Martians pulled out a light sabre and hacked the limbs off of innocent people.

I think it would be quite natural to want to cross to the other side of the street whenever a blue Martian you personally did not know was approaching. I'd consider that to be prudence, not racism.

Am I saying to cross to the other side of the street when a Muslim is approaching? No. But I'm also saying that it is not racist to be wary of people you don't know who look like people who are known enemies.

That is one thing that makes fighting wars in other nations so difficult. In Vietnam one never knew who the enemy was. Was that little girl approaching you, looking like he wanted to give you a hug strapped with a bomb?  The same situation exists in places like Iraq and Afghanistan.

And terrorism on the home front creates some of those same apprehensions at home.

What's the solution?  I can't say I honestly know. I think however, after the Muslims who marched with signs telling Britain to go to hell that the moderate Muslims should have immediately held their own parade to say, "Britain is our home. We love Britain. We thank Allah for the police. Down with terror." That sort of thing.

I think that, fair or not, moderate Muslims are going to have to take a much more active role to show they support the nation they are living in and that they strongly stand against terror with rest of the nation.
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bixie
bixie


Promising
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my common sense is tingling!
posted May 26, 2013 06:57 PM

moderate muslims have spoken out.

religious and community leaders

and men and women

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Salamandre
Salamandre


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Wog refugee
posted May 26, 2013 07:14 PM

The average Joe muslim is copulating like a rabbit (religion prohibits contraception), have 8 kids while all 8 will make prison times at different stages of their lives, because the average Joe muslim can't (who can?) supervise all 8 of them, even with huge welfare amounts. Uneducated young generation, ghettoization consequences, lack of jobs, lack of school places and discipline, I believe the average Joe muslim multiplied by millions of Joe muslims is a threat. Different habits and morals values, different goals and priorities will lead to culture shock later or sooner. Is already there.
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Drakon-Deus
Drakon-Deus


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Qapla'
posted May 26, 2013 07:18 PM

Quote:
religion prohibits contraception


Then why does Paul advise for unmarried men and virgin girls to stay that way? Perphaps you mean the muslim religion.
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Salamandre
Salamandre


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Wog refugee
posted May 26, 2013 07:20 PM

No, I was implying muslims are Buddhists. Seriously...
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Drakon-Deus
Drakon-Deus


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Qapla'
posted May 26, 2013 07:20 PM

Religion is a very broad term you know. You have to be specific.
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bixie
bixie


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my common sense is tingling!
posted May 26, 2013 07:26 PM

Salamandre: that is under the assumption that A), all muslims think the same (they don't) B) that all of them are going to follow the quran exactly (they don't), C) that all muslims are criminals (they aren't), and D) that they can't care for 8 kids. Most people don't have 8 kids. most people plan for how many kids they have and make sure they have enough money to support them.
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Salamandre
Salamandre


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Wog refugee
posted May 26, 2013 07:29 PM

Well, all I know is that muslim immigration become VERY problematic in all Europe. If it was something limited to one area, we could search for fixing it by learning from others, but all countries facing same problems show that we have a big problem on hands. And is not about extremists, which could be understandable. Is about the average.
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artu
artu


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My BS sensor is tingling again
posted May 26, 2013 07:42 PM

Your main problem is clashing of people whose cultures are form different "times." Most immigrant muslims come from a pre-industrial culture. I'm not saying they didn't have factories back home, I'm saying the cultural dynamics they were raised in are pre-industrial compared to the Westerners who had been through it 200 years ago. If you imagine a 19th century simple small-town Westerner, his every day moral norms wont be very very different from a Muslim.

Take the matter of contraception for example, Catholics are the ones who are very much against it, but how many people does that affect in Italy unless they're heavily religious? I never heard anybody not using contraception because of Islam in Istanbul, but I'm sure in rural areas there are people who think using condoms is a sin.

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GunFred
GunFred


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Sexy Manticore
posted May 26, 2013 10:21 PM

I liked Elodin's post. Most of them are just peaceful people who want to live life despite the crazyness they believe. As long as the government does not let immigrant ghettos be created, even muslims will adapt to western society within 0-3 generations with or without their religion intact. If you mark them all as enemies, that is what they will truly become.
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Elodin
Elodin


Promising
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posted May 26, 2013 11:14 PM
Edited by Elodin at 23:18, 26 May 2013.

Quote:
The average Joe muslim is copulating like a rabbit (religion prohibits contraception), have 8 kids while all 8 will make prison times at different stages of their lives, because the average Joe muslim can't (who can?) supervise all 8 of them, even with huge welfare amounts. Uneducated young generation, ghettoization consequences, lack of jobs, lack of school places and discipline, I believe the average Joe muslim multiplied by millions of Joe muslims is a threat. Different habits and morals values, different goals and priorities will lead to culture shock later or sooner. Is already there.


Do you really think everyone in France who is not a Muslim has the same habits, goals and proprieties? I don't think that such a thing is the case.

I think painting all members of a religion like that is wrong.

And you do not have your facts correct. Islam in general does not forbid contraception. Perhaps you should do research on what a religion teaches before you, an atheist according my understanding, try to state its doctrines.

Also, statistics show that second generation Muslim birth rates in more urban nations fall to be roughly equivalent to the birth rates of others in the nation.

Clicky

Quote:

: In general, it is permissible to use birth control to prevent pregnancy, and it is (also) permitted to use the (various) forms of birth control.



Clicky

Quote:

Claim: The Muslim population in the West is growing fast and will soon become a majority in Europe.

Response: Saunders cites “…a revolution in the statistical understanding of Muslim immigrants in Europe and North America.” He provides detailed numbers from the “…largest and most comprehensive of these projections … conducted in 2011 by the Washington-based Pew Research Center.” (The report is footnoted for those who would like to refer directly.) The report concludes that although there have been increased percentages of Muslim inhabitants in Europe, if current trends continue, the maximum percentages of Muslim citizens in Europe would be about 9.5 percent by 2050 but more likely the percentage will be about 8 percent. As Saunders says, “This is not exactly exponential growth.” It is often argued that Muslim families have much higher birth rates than European families. The Pew report concludes that the birthrate of Muslim families in Europe by 2030 will be about 2.0 children per family and the European non-Muslim families will have a rate of about 1.6 children per family. “There are no signs of Muslims becoming a European majority or even a very large minority.”

In America, the study projects that the American Muslims will comprise about 1.7 percent of the population by 2030, hardly an alarming figure.

Claim: Islamic beliefs lead to higher birth rates.

Response: In the mid-decades of the 20th centuries, one could make this argument but it no longer holds true.

Consider the case of Iran. In the mid-1980s, the world’s only Islamic theocracy had a fertility rate approaching 7 children per family. By 2010, Iranian average family size had fallen to 1.7 children—a lower rate than in Britain or France.” Saunders poses that this change was not brought about by any change in religious belief because Iran remains devoutly Muslim. It has rather been changed by rapid urbanization, increased literacy among women and a high rate of usage of contraception. “Islam does not feature Christianity’s scriptural instruction to ‘multiply and replenish the earth.’”

Claim: Muslim immigrants in the West are destined to reproduce faster than people around them.

Response: Statistics bear out the fact that when immigrants who come from a tradition of large families in their native countries arrive in a Western urban setting, they soon learn that they cannot afford to have a large family. After a generation, their birth rates are similar to those in their new country of residence.


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xerox
xerox


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
posted May 26, 2013 11:30 PM

Yeah. When it comes to the second generation, there's really not much of a difference when it comes to anything ranging from birth rates to education.
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Salamandre
Salamandre


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Wog refugee
posted May 27, 2013 12:00 AM
Edited by Salamandre at 00:21, 27 May 2013.

Elodin, your study makes speculations about what will happen if this or that. Is there a higher birth rate right now? Yes, 2-3 times higher than european one, links are endless. Now, will it decline or not, we know how studies are good for, look at economical crisis, all economists are clueless still talk a lot.

Quote:
I liked Elodin's post.


Emm, lol? The wolf is now a goat again? I am too lazy to find where he told being ok with thousand of innocent muslims killed by drones-and many other issues-, and now takes defense only because I told is about religion. The last person I am willing to discuss such things is with an hypocrite who changes from Stalin to Jesus from one thread to another, sorry.
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xerox
xerox


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
posted May 27, 2013 12:20 AM

well, it's what keep the population growing and we'll need that
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blizzardboy
blizzardboy


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Nerf Herder
posted May 27, 2013 01:11 AM
Edited by blizzardboy at 01:24, 27 May 2013.

1. It's kind of hard to not surpass the European birthrate.

2. The birthrate will definitely decrease, but how much it decreases will depend on their long-term level of success. If they end up being entrenched and stay firmly in the lower-class, then I'd expect for the birthrates to stay pretty high. Something pretty obvious but easy to overlook is that one of the reasons low birthrates are connected to a higher standard of living is that families have less financial obligations. Zero kids = expenses go elsewhere, although of course low birthrates can in the longer-term spell bad news for a country's revenue and overall prosperity. That's why Japan's standard of living is in bigger trouble than what it might look like. A low birthrate is deceivingly positive for people's wallets in the short-term and negative for the long-term as they retire and start collecting whatever their country's version of social security is.

The Qu'ran speaks highly of big and fruitful families but it's not a religious ordinance or anything so I wouldn't expect them to go into 'FOR THE SWARM!' mode. As their standard of living increases, Muslim birthrates become more moderate.
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GunFred
GunFred


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posted May 27, 2013 01:39 AM

Well, Elodin has a good point in this discussion. Political islamophobes are fearmongering to gain political power. One of the most effective techniques is the one where you compare birthrates and scare people into believing that radical muslims will breed their population past what europeans have been doing for thousands of years in just a generation or two. People of less paranoid and weak minds can understand that the 1st generation immigrant situation is vastly different that that one of a 2nd or 3rd generation and the later two will adapt to the new and hopefully improved social conditions. As long as they are exposed to our culture and not crammed into their own poor bubble and treated as lesser beings that is.

The idea that Islam will ever take over Europe is silly and cowardly. As horrible as Islam and muslims sometimes can be, the islamophobes are actually THE REAL THREAT to western culture. Provided of course that society does not **** on itself by how it deals with muslim immigrants.
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Elodin
Elodin


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posted May 27, 2013 02:21 AM

And Britain begins to tread dangerous ground. I can see laws against such things as saying that more people should go out and kill someone in the name of Islam. But Britain needs to resist the temptation to crack down on all non-politically correct speech.

Clicky

Quote:

Britain's government is setting up a new terrorism task force to tackle radical preachers and extremism, officials said Sunday, days after suspects apparently linked to extremist Islamist activists brutally killed a British soldier in a London street.

Home Secretary Theresa May said the group will look at whether new powers and laws are needed to clamp down on religious leaders and organizations who promote extremist messages and who target potential recruits in jails, schools and mosques.


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Salamandre
Salamandre


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Wog refugee
posted May 27, 2013 02:24 AM

Elodin is clueless on this issue except speculations. First, US muslim percentage is 1.7% while in many Europe countries it is near 12%. Comparing cerises with melons. Secondly, in his "study", did the author consider the natality welfare bonus? For each kid a family receives 300-400 euros/monthly, and there is no limit. The temptation is teasing low class immigrants, that's why I believe that immigration regulation does not go through expulsions or labels, but by removing/reconsidering the tainted fruit: the ridiculous welfare. When we see how passionated is Elodin about no-no welfare in US, how can he defend waves of immigrants in Europe which particularly LIVE from this welfare, abuses it and take the government for an idiot. Which is, btw.
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Elodin
Elodin


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posted May 27, 2013 02:56 AM

Quote:
Elodin is clueless on this issue except speculations. First, US muslim percentage is 1.7% while in many Europe countries it is near 12%. Comparing cerises with melons. Secondly, in his "study", did the author consider the natality welfare bonus? For each kid a family receives 300-400 euros/monthly, and there is no limit. The temptation is teasing low class immigrants, that's why I believe that immigration regulation does not go through expulsions or labels, but by removing/reconsidering the tainted fruit: the ridiculous welfare. When we see how passionated is Elodin about no-no welfare in US, how can he defend waves of immigrants in Europe which particularly LIVE from this welfare, abuses it and take the government for an idiot. Which is, btw.


I'm not clueless on the issues. In fact I referenced outside sources in the discussion, whereas you have not. The data I cited came from the Pew Research Center, which is a highly prestigious non-partisan research center.

Also, America is the world's melting pot and I live in the border state of Texas. The illegal immigration in Texas now means in ten years the Hispanic population here will outnumber the Caucasian population. In ONE year Hispanics will outnumber whites in California. So you saying I am clueless about immigration issues simply does not hold water.

And those illegal immigrants flocking across the border are mostly poor and uneducated because they have few opportunities in Mexico. The dems have refused to control the border because the democrat party is firmly in favor of wealth redistribution and the vast majority of all Hispanic votes are going to go to the democrat party. The US is headed for a one party Marxist state and will become a dictatorship soon afterwards in my opinion.

Illegal immigration is resulting in a radical shift in demographics and soon a radical shift in culture and politics.

Clicky

Quote:

Hispanics will become the largest ethnic group in the nation’s most populous state early next year, the California Department of Finance said Thursday, marking a big milestone in a long-running demographic shift that has already deeply altered the political balance of power, the economy and culture.de

The prediction that Hispanics will equal the number of whites in California by the middle of this year and surpass them in early 2014 was disclosed in Gov. Jerry Brown’s budget proposal in early January, but the latest numbers offer a far more detailed portrait of how the shift will unfold across age groups and geographic regions over the next five decades. Whites and Hispanics each currently represent 39 percent of the state’s population.

In 2020, Hispanics will account for 40.7 percent of the population and whites will make up 36.6 percent. In 2030, the population will be 43.9 percent Hispanic and 34.1 percent white.

In 2060, Hispanics will make up 48 percent of the population compared to 30 percent white.

Blacks are expected to slip from nearly 6 percent in 2010 to just more than 4 percent by 2060, while the Asian population, now just below 13 percent, may grow slightly.

California becomes only the nation’s second state after New Mexico where Hispanics make up the largest racial or ethnic group. Whites currently lack a majority in only two states — Hawaii and New Mexico.

In Texas, Hispanics will likely become the largest group within 10 years, said Mark Lopez, associate director of the Pew Hispanic Center, which studies demographic trends. A long period of time will elapse before another state reaches that milestone, he said.



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