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Zenofex
Responsible
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Kreegan-atheist
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posted May 28, 2013 09:56 AM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 09:57, 28 May 2013.
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Could you answer a direct question for a change rather than quoting facts that everybody knows about (most of us much better than you)?
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted May 28, 2013 09:58 AM |
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Edited by Elodin at 10:03, 28 May 2013.
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Not allowing Muslim women who believe Allah requires them to wear a burqa to actually wear a burqa is oppressing women. Obviously a woman who does not want to wear a burqa should not be required to.
Forcing women to not follow their religion to live in France and be "assimilated" into the Borg Collective French culture is simply morally wrong in my opinion. Freedom of religion is one of the most fundamental of all freedoms. I'd say only the right to live is a "more important" liberty.
Such denial of basic librties creates understandable hostilities between the government and those being oppressed.
Here is an article on CNN by a Muslim woman.
Clicky
Quote:
(CNN) -- I wear the burqa for the simple reason that I am a Muslim and the Koran says that I must wear the full veil in order to be modest.
I am proud of my Muslim faith and my modesty. I am proud to follow God's law.
Nobody ever forced me to wear the full veil and I have been wearing it for around 10 years now.
......
For those of us who are believers, we just want to do God's will and live by the sacred text, so what any man says has nothing to do with that.
(continued)
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Revelation
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted May 28, 2013 10:08 AM |
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(continued)
[...]And whatever the outcome, if France succeeds in banning the veil on its streets, I will never take mine off. My freedom means a lot to me and if this law is passed, I would rather move to another country where I can worship in peace.
I obey the laws of God not the laws of man.[...]
Nuf said. Move.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted May 28, 2013 10:08 AM |
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Edited by artu at 10:47, 28 May 2013.
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1)Kids are not fully grown individuals.
2)Most women who do it willingly in their later years are, a)forced into it as a kid, hence normalize it. b) don't have economical independency to live as they want, even if they want to anyway, and will never have a chance of it if they keep wearing burga
3)Not that it essentially matters but there is nothing in the Quran demanding women to cover all their face.
4)If you keep linking the same Nazi snow over and over again treating us like imbeciles, I'll answer with the same quote over and over again treating you like an imbecile:
Quote:
Of course you may point out Mao, Pol Pot and other ghosts of the past, but those are dead and forgotten, and in modern society of a democratic country, there is no "indoctrination" in schools, or at least: there should be none. So i'm not exactly sure what you're opposed to. Are you opposed to long-dead regimes that no sane mind would ever dream of supporting and/or resurrecting ? Well, that's not much of an "opinion", it's more of a necessity of a healthy mind. It's so obvious that nobody even mentions it.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted May 28, 2013 11:10 AM |
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Edited by Elodin at 11:12, 28 May 2013.
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Extremists in the French government are creating animosity with the Muslim population. I had not seen this story but France is even moving to ban headscarves from private organizations.
This means Mulsim women can't work in public institutions and can't work in private institutions either. Oppression.
This is not a case of Muslims causing trouble. It is the case of xenophobia causing trouble, in my opinion.
Clicky
Clicky
Quote:
French President Francois Hollande, whose popularity has been declining in recent weeks due to his wrong decisions, has called for imposing further restrictions on wearing the headscarf in public.
Hollande has thrown his support behind efforts by the various political parties of the country to increase restrictions on headscarf use. Calls for a new law on headscarf use have caused great disappointment among French Muslims.
....
The demands for a new law came after a ruling by France's highest court of appeals last month which declared that an employee of a privately-run nursery was sacked for wearing an Islamic headscarf had been unlawfully dismissed.
On 28 March, Hollande called for the rules in "public service" nurseries to be similar to those that apply in schools.
The head of the French Council of the Muslim Faith (CFCM), Mohammed Moussaoui, has warned against any new law aiming to curb the right of private-sector employees to wear headscarves, while Hanan Ben Rhouma, a journalist from the Muslim affairs website saphirnews.com says that the demand for a new law "is causing a lot of gnashing of teeth in the Muslim community".
.....
Experts say the increasing rate of conversion to Islam in France presents Paris with a growing challenge as the secular government has awkward or sometimes hostile attitudes towards Muslims.
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Revelation
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 28, 2013 11:33 AM |
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Edited by xerox at 11:40, 28 May 2013.
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Children are not the private property of their parents or of the state. They are individuals with a right to liberty. Parents forcing their religion on their children violate that right. How can we protect this right? Well, we can't protect liberty by violating liberty so having the police monitor households is out of the question. What we can do is offer an alternative in the education system. That does not mean that the state should run all or any schools. Rather, we need a variety of different institutions of education that operate from a secular framework.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted May 28, 2013 11:39 AM |
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Quote:
Clicky
French President Francois Hollande, whose popularity has been declining in recent weeks due to his wrong decisions, has called for imposing further restrictions on wearing the headscarf in public.
I literally lol'd. PressTV is alpha.
edit: omg I'm still laughing. Iranian state broadcasting is freaking hardcore.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted May 28, 2013 12:12 PM |
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Quote:
Children are not the private property of their parents or of the state. They are individuals with a right to liberty. Parents forcing their religion on their children violate that right. How can we protect this right? Well, we can't protect liberty by violating liberty so having the police monitor households is out of the question. What we can do is offer an alternative in the education system. That does not mean that the state should run all or any schools. Rather, we need a variety of different institutions of education that operate from a secular framework.
Is it just me or there isn't a single tangible thought in this paragraph?
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 28, 2013 12:25 PM |
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Maybe you need to take a class in reading comprehension?
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted May 28, 2013 12:31 PM |
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Not really. But you aren't saying anything more than the usual empty talk which can be heard from governing politicians. The post in question reads as "Some people should do stuff". Who? What? How?
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted May 28, 2013 12:33 PM |
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Quote:
Not allowing Muslim women who believe Allah requires them to wear a burqa to actually wear a burqa is oppressing women. Obviously a woman who does not want to wear a burqa should not be required to.
Forcing women to not follow their religion to live in France and be "assimilated" into the Borg Collective French culture is simply morally wrong in my opinion. Freedom of religion is one of the most fundamental of all freedoms. I'd say only the right to live is a "more important" liberty.
I already have asked you a question refering to this subject about a year ago, and you managed to just overlook it, or decided to not answer it. I will try again, maybe I am more lucky this time:
When laws of a state "contradict" with "laws" (rules) of a religion, who has the upperhand and why?
Example (hypothetical!!: A man belongs to a special religion, which denies every kind of clothes (Burqua?). He works as a kindergarten teacher.
You have a 5 yeard old daughter. Would you send your daughter in that kindergarten daily?
And please, no excuses like "such religions do not exist" or similar. We talk about principles. And you were talking about oppression refering to religious habbits. But just habbits YOU find ok. But for now, I would like to talk about habbits which are not ok for you (or others...).
____________
Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted May 28, 2013 03:52 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 15:53, 28 May 2013.
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Quote:
When laws of a state "contradict" with "laws" (rules) of a religion, who has the upperhand and why?
Since freedom to exercise one's religion is a fundamental human right the government must show that the questioned practice "will create a clear and present danger that will bring about the substantive evils that Congress has a right to prevent." That is what the US courts said about limitations on free speech and such principles would apply to the exercise of one's religion as well.
Let's say I was of the Sword Dancing Religion (SDR) that required me to constantly twirl around in circles swinging a 36 inch long sharp edged sword. Twirling round and round with a sword while making my way down a public sidewalk would be a danger to the public so that practice could be disallowed in public.
But a religious practice of wearing a headscarf or burqa would be an exercise of religion that could not be regulated because it does not " create a clear and present danger that will bring about the substantive evils that Congress has a right to prevent. I could see limiting burquas in areas of high security where one's identity must be at all times known without question.
Your example of a nudist falls in the clear and present danger department.
There are reasons to not allow public nudity.
1) Herpes type 2 (genital herpes)and other diseases are transmittable across inanimate objects like chairs or tables. Like the seats on public buses. Going buck naked means you may give someone else your diseases.
2) Women on their period will leave blood traces in public. Public health problem.
3) Children would be exposed to naked adults. Many children are not ready for such displays. Psychological/emotional problems. Especially with the way perverts will chose to expose themselves.
4) Would result in more rapes of adults and rapes of children. There are a lot of freaks out there.
5) Cell phones are a distraction when driving. A hot naked chick walking on the sidewalk is a bigger distraction. Increase in accidents.
6) It's indecent. Exposing your genitals in public is not the same as exposing your elbows.
7) Exposing your flabby body in public may cause permanent blindness in others. Or at least they may wish they were blind. 
8) Public nudity in areas not designed for it (such as a nude beach or a nude club) is downright rude.
Quote:
You have a 5 yeard old daughter. Would you send your daughter in that kindergarten daily?
Of course I would not. Adults exposing themselves to children or to other adults without consent is immoral.
____________
Revelation
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted May 28, 2013 03:58 PM |
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Now my question for you.
How does it hurt you for a woman who chooses to wear a headscarf/burqa because she believes her God requires her to do so?
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Revelation
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted May 28, 2013 04:08 PM |
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Quote:
3) Children would be exposed to naked adults. Many children are not ready for such displays. Psychological/emotional problems.
Same goes with burka. Putting a yet growing up child in a suit that hinders her sight, takes away her facial expressions and makes her indistinguishable from others creates serious psychological and emotional problems. In fact the problems caused by this would be much more severe than ones caused by nudity if your intention is to raise a free-thinking, independent, emotionally balanced individual who can love and be loved. I'm not even mentioning the practical problems it will cause during school time which are again much more realistic and valid than drivers supposedly getting distracted. (They will get used to it in a week, that's why nobody gives a damn to see you almost naked on a beach.)
Quote:
6) It's indecent. Exposing your genitals in public is not the same as exposing your elbows.
8) Public nudity in areas not designed for it (such as a nude beach or a nude club) is downright rude.
Totally subjective and cultural.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted May 28, 2013 04:40 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
3) Children would be exposed to naked adults. Many children are not ready for such displays. Psychological/emotional problems.
Same goes with burka. Putting a yet growing up child in a suit that hinders her sight, takes away her facial expressions and makes her indistinguishable from others creates serious psychological and emotional problems.
Oh please. Little girls love to dress up like Mommy whether Mommy wears a burqa or a min-skirt. And as I understand it a burqa is not supposed to be worn until puberty is reached though some wear it a bit before then to get accustomed to it.
Quote:
In fact the problems caused by this would be much more severe than ones caused by nudity if your intention is to raise a free-thinking, independent, emotionally balanced individual who can love and be loved.
Your claim that a woman who chooses to wear a burqa can't be a free-thinker or independent or emotionally balanced has no basis in fact. A burqa transforms a woman into a non-person incapable of loving or being loved? I think not.
One of the great things about American is a common shared ideal that, despite our differences, we should be free to make choices for ourselves instead of have our lives scripted by the State. If a woman wants to wear a burqa that's fine with me. If she does not that's fine too. Freedom is a good thing, not something to be shunned.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted May 28, 2013 04:54 PM |
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The problem is vast majority of them don't choose to wear it, they are raised in it, and no, it is not about "imitating Mommy" when what you wear is actually a hindrance in social life and causes you to be an insignificant member of it. (Hence, you are no longer independent and you don't think four yourself). A child may imitate a member of the family walking with a cane for five minutes but he will still want to run eventually, won't he, same goes here. Burkas are not headscarfs, they turn the wearer into something insignificant, indistinguishable from others so they have nothing to with liberty of that person. But I guess, you'll defend any movement IF there is the adjective religious in front of it, even not giving medicine to your children when they're sick.
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Doomforge
Admirable
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Retired Hero
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posted May 28, 2013 05:40 PM |
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Quote:
Now my question for you.
How does it hurt you for a woman who chooses to wear a headscarf/burqa because she believes her God requires her to do so?
Hard to say if she believes in it, or is she just afraid of being beaten (or much worse) for not obeying the law.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted May 28, 2013 05:54 PM |
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So far we have no evidence of God punishing the woman for not wearing burka, but instead men around beating her. That's the wonderful side of the religion, Gods asks you to do a specific thing, you do it or no, no way to know if he agrees or not.
Hopefully there are people around to remind you the hard way. Freedom and tolerance, yeah.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted May 28, 2013 07:41 PM |
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Quote:
So far we have no evidence of God punishing the woman for not wearing burka, but instead men around beating her.
That's not true, God is punishing her through her husbands' fists. An obvious evidence. 
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 28, 2013 11:57 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 23:57, 28 May 2013.
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There's a "girl" (17-18 years old) in my school who now wears a niqab because she got married. The risk that girls will grow up into wearing burqas in Europe is probably minimal though. I hardly ever see a burqa and I have never met a conservative muslim girl (I met a lot of them). I think growing up in a society with secular, liberal self-realization values and culture is a pretty effective burqa-killer.
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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This thread is pages long: 
