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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted September 16, 2012 02:52 AM |
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"The movie is made by an amateur, express only its subjective views, was condemned by everyone, yet the muslims choose to burn everything because there are deeper goals in the design"
I agree. I guess they'll get used to stuff like this in 20-30 years. It takes a few generations and urban culture. Keep in mind that only 50 years ago, Christians were burning Beatles records only because Lennon said "we're more popular than jesus."
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 16, 2012 03:00 AM |
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Edited by Fauch at 03:01, 16 Sep 2012.
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Quote:
@Fauch: not arrested, but expelled from country, for ever. You cure racism by deleting the obvious elements which are the cause. You know very well that in France, for example, you can burn french flag and go away with a 50 euro fee. That's why more and more people will vote FN, because the law is spineless.
how does that solve the problem exactly?
burning a flag can be considered vandalism, a fee seems a reasonable punishment. you don't want to do like those fanatics and start riots and throw death threats every time one of your symbols is tainted.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted September 16, 2012 03:02 AM |
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Quote:
Elodin, atheism is not a belief.
Atheism is a belief, a faith, a religion. If you say, "God does not exist" or "Your god is mythological" you are making a statement of faith, as you have no proof that God does not exist.
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Your god is as mythological as medusa or odin or dracula ....."
It is quite hilarious when atheists make statements of faith all the while condemning religious people for having faith.
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The clergy is attacked at many revolutions because they are seen as a part of the oppressive class. Revolutions are by definition bloody but there is no militan atheist principle to attack the clergy, to take a historical fact and putting it out of context is twisting the facts.
Sorry, dude, but Stalin, Lenin, Pol Pot, Mao, and a dozen lesser known militant atheist tyrants murdered far, far more people than all other religions combined for all of recorded history, and did so in the name of atheism, with the intent of wiping out all other religions. They failed.
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There is a contextual link between abrahamic religions, their holy books, their hell and aggression toward non-believers. On the contrary, there is no contextual link between atheism and aggression against believers. It is as simple as that.
Both of your statements are very, very false. As mentioned, atheism has all other religions beaten hands down when it comes to the number of people that have been murdered by its militant proponents.
Of course Christ taught us to love all people, even our enemies, and to do good to them and pray for them. Anyone who says Christianity is or ever has been violent is either blatantly dishonest or is ignorant of the facts. There of course have been people who have claimed to act in Christ's name who did evil things that are against what Christ taught. They are not Christians because they are not followers of Christ.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted September 16, 2012 03:07 AM |
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Quote:
burning a flag can be considered vandalism, a fee seems a reasonable punishment.
Simply because a flag is not a simple inanimate object. It is something people are proud of, it symbolizes their history, progress and beliefs. You deny all this by burning the flag.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted September 16, 2012 03:13 AM |
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Edited by artu at 03:16, 16 Sep 2012.
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1- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism. Just cause you say it so ten times doesn't make it so.
2- i didn't say Stalin or Mao didn't kill, i said it had no contextual link to atheism directly. but it seems you ignore logic on purpose.atheism itself isn't an ideology, an atheist can be a marxist, liberal, nihilist, monarchy supporter.... so on.
3- Just the concept of Hell for non-believers is violent enough if you are a believer.
4- You seem to ignore reason to justify your religion which is quite typical. Since religion itself is not rational it can only be defended rationally to a point.
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 16, 2012 04:05 AM |
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Edited by Fauch at 04:29, 16 Sep 2012.
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why that debate about atheism? what Elodin posted wasn't even about atheism.
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Simply because a flag is not a simple inanimate object. It is something people are proud of, it symbolizes their history, progress and beliefs. You deny all this by burning the flag.
yes, but as we can see with muslims, that's also how a war can start, so you'd better be cautious when you answer to the provocation.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted September 16, 2012 04:26 AM |
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Quote:
why that debate about atheism? what Elodin posted wasn't even about atheism.
well, he defined atheism as a religion and i just happened to correct it, cause its not. no big deal. the way he insists on the mistake by saying it's a religion because you can't prove god doesnt exist (as if you can prove anything does NOT exist in the whole universe) is annoying though. burden of proof is upon existence of something, not the other way around.
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Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted September 16, 2012 04:32 AM |
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Edited by Seraphim at 04:58, 16 Sep 2012.
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Quote:
Simply because a flag is not a simple inanimate object. It is something people are proud of, it symbolizes their history, progress and beliefs. You deny all this by burning the flag.
Burning a flag should be punished. Many necessary things have to be respected, why are flags not protected?
Burning a flag is the equivalent of "Slandering" a religion or a public insult. In this case, the punishment of burning a flag should be way higher than a mere 50 euro.
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why that debate about atheism? what Elodin posted wasn't even about atheism.
Let me quote him:
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Militant atheists, like militant Islamists, are quite divisive, yes. However, most followers of religions have a "live and let live" mentality. You follow your religion, whether it be atheism, Hinduism, Buddhism, or whatever, and I'll follow mine.
Not to mention that his quote is quite false imo. I would not bother with that though.
Elodin just has to jump into every thread each time an atheist voices his/her opinion and he has toexplain troll us atheists that we are religious and that Stalin killed people because he did not believe in god... Also, we apparently do have faith because we dont believe in God. I have yet to hear about militant atheists...
I feel insulted to hear the constant "The biggest murderers were atheists" or Atheism is a belief. Before anything, its spam.
We got that the billionth time already.
Of course, I cant make demands, but that is not the subject of this thread.
European immigrant muslims are the issue here, not religion entirely or "Atheists are religious".
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 16, 2012 04:43 AM |
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well, he said militants atheists. I don't know who they are, but about other atheists, he just talked about a live and let live mentality.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted September 16, 2012 06:52 AM |
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I don't know what is a militant atheist. So far, is religious people who try to convert others, not the opposite, never saw that.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted September 16, 2012 08:20 AM |
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it's a term used for people like richard dawkins, christopher hitchens, douglas adams etc etc. people who write books, articles to promote atheism and give their opinions about how bad the effects of religion are. still there is a total semantic difference between being religous and strongly-opinionated.
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted September 16, 2012 10:49 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Elodin, atheism is not a belief.
Atheism is a belief, a faith, a religion. If you say, "God does not exist" or "Your god is mythological" you are making a statement of faith, as you have no proof that God does not exist.
Wow...So now it is enough to have ONE statement about a specific religion, and then I have founded a new kind of religion?
Only because in the states a courthouse said something which fits into your worldview doesn't mean this counts for the whole world. Except of course you think the states ARE the whole world.
Extremism is always bad...no matter what kind of...
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted September 16, 2012 11:10 AM |
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I never understood how atheism can be faith. Faith is an environmental symptom, if you are born in Alger, your god will not be the same as if you born in China. Nothing but this fact should raise serious questions in your mind, because obviously one is wrong then, can be there two or multiple gods in same time? How can you know which is wrong?
On the other side, if you are born on some forgotten island, without books or access to civilization, nothing will give you a hint about religion and probably you will consider a gorilla as god. Your belief is a symptom of a doctrine you receive when child, regardless the location and parents education.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted September 16, 2012 11:25 AM |
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Lack of faith is also an environmental symbol, by the way - should you live off the land and without civilization, you'd probably worship thunders and other fetishes.
On militant atheists - I consider Dawkins one. It's fine to believe or not believe in God, gods, or flying pink unicorns, but honestly, writing a whole book to convince people that you're right? what for? what's the point, exactly, to feel good that more people think the same as you? 
Why do people care so much about the beliefs of others? Let them believe in whatever they want. Annoyance or hatred towards other people's beliefs is as stupid as annoyance and hatred aimed at gay people. Because they have different principles, it annoys you. Duh.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted September 16, 2012 02:12 PM |
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Edited by Seraphim at 14:19, 16 Sep 2012.
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Why do people care so much about the beliefs of others?
Well, those Jehovah witnesses or their islamic equivalent wander across neighborhoods and ask "Do you know jesus christ?" or "Dont live a sinful life, the quran is everything you need"...
Or the constant "You will burn in hell". "You will burn in hell" or "I will pray for you" are insults to me.
If calling an atheist militant for selling a book against religion is militant, then by definition nearly all religions people are militant because they constantly strive to get more members,speak pridefully about their belief, attack other views or speak bad about atheists.
I see Richard Dawkins book as a an atheist book that criticizes religion. It does not say anything about,or so I know, how awesome it is not to believe in god.
But it is not surprizing. We allready have people who censor or have to forgo lessons about evolution because it "Insults religious people"
There are no militant "Atheists" just as there are no militant humanists, or militant secularists or militant scientists. Atheism just means disbelief in god. If someone has to put more properties to slander it, go on.
Maybe it is the religious people who should stop interfering with the lives of others and not the otherway around. But I can see that it is hard to see the world rationally when everything looks like it surrounding you. That is what dogma makes people think. The others are "Satans" work.
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Let them believe in whatever they want. Annoyance or hatred towards other people's beliefs is as stupid as annoyance and hatred aimed at gay people. Because they have different principles, it annoys you. Duh.
No. It becomes really annoying when we have to respect a religion despite it provoking violence, mistreating laws and interfering with free speech.
I cant ignore a religious person whose religion tells him to "Kill infidels or atheists". Really?
Some of the dumbest laws of the planet are stationed in European countries.
The video was nothing but a joke. But seeing how muslims react, should now freespeech be "censored" because somebody feels insulted?
I think not. How about people censor the "Behead those who insult islam" slogan. Before anything, that is psychological bullying.
PS: Its hilarious hearing RT call the uploader of the video "Extremist". Its like the "Pussy riot" scandal in theocratic russia.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted September 16, 2012 02:30 PM |
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You really don't see a difference between religious preacher and atheistic praecher?
The former believes he grants people afterlife, gets them into magical pink unicorn land after death or whatever.
The latter... bah, his "students" will die anyway, so why does he care? To feel better that more people feel like him? Pointless.
To sum up: the former believes he does good for others. The latter just wants to feel others share his point of view because his "truth" ultimately is as worthless as any other. Big difference.
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Tsar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
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posted September 16, 2012 02:32 PM |
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Believe it or not, but there was once a time where it was students who sought out the masters, and not the other way around.
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted September 16, 2012 03:13 PM |
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Edited by Seraphim at 15:17, 16 Sep 2012.
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Quote:
The latter... bah, his "students" will die anyway, so why does he care? To feel better that more people feel like him? Pointless.
That is your opinion. Somebody who voices his/her opinion is not a trivial matter. Death threats, societal expulsion,death, prisont time and so on are occasional things that happen to people who voice their opinion.
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To sum up: the former believes he does good for others.
By indoctrinating them? It does not matter what he believes, but what he does. If I believe that I save somebody by killing him, am I doing a the right thing? I am not talking about euthanasia here.
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The latter just wants to feel others share his point of view because his "truth" ultimately is as worthless as any other. Big difference.
You made him sound like he is a child who seeks attention.
If "truth" or scientific or rational truth is worthless to you or equivalent to religious truth, then I have nothing to discuss.
His book criticizes religion. Is that bad?
If someone needs proof or an idea how religion hampers scientific and societal progress, go ahead look around.
His "opinion" or "his truth" actually makes one the wiser about the ramifications of religion.
This is way better than a lie that indoctrinates you to follow it so that "Somehow" it makes the other guy feel better.
Actually, his book is educative. Its not there to make people feel better.
But then, factual truth is not what is being sought, is it? Only what pleases people. Then by all means, "The God delusion" pleases me.
I am really questioning, then why people dont allow schizofrenic people run wild in the streets? With your "Nobody cares about what truth is", the schizofrenics could be right aswell. Their reality no more less "Truthful" then ours.
I think you have the wrong idea of "Live and let live" but I am not here to convince anyone otherwise.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted September 16, 2012 03:41 PM |
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That is your opinion. Somebody who voices his/her opinion is not a trivial matter. Death threats, societal expulsion,death, prisont time and so on are occasional things that happen to people who voice their opinion.
And the point of such "voicing" is?
Do you need a virtual pat on the back by a " scientific authority" to feel your atheism is more valid?
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By indoctrinating them? It does not matter what he believes, but what he does. If I believe that I save somebody by killing him, am I doing a the right thing? I am not talking about euthanasia here.
"Indoctrination" doesn't work against adult, reasonable people that can tell right from wrong. And I'm against forcing children into religion by religious parents, by the way.
Your killing example is completely off - obviously, preaching happens with mutual consent, killing does not. Except euthanasia, which you excluded from the equation yourself.
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You made him sound like he is a child who seeks attention.
If "truth" or scientific or rational truth is worthless to you or equivalent to religious truth, then I have nothing to discuss.
Truth, and especially "scientific truth" has absolutely nothing to do with morals/ethic, and by large mean, religion.
There is nothing to discuss with you anyway, because you're just going around on pointless hatred.
I was merely asking whether you really don't see any difference between theist and atheist preaching.
It's like making a commercial that you don't need to buy a bicycle instead of a commercial about buying one. What's the point?
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His book criticizes religion. Is that bad?
No, just pointless. There are hundreds of research fields that could use a scientific mind. And all of that potential is wasted on bashing someone's beliefs... what's the use?
Okay, let's say you convinced Elodin there's no God. And?
What did that accomplish? What has changed in his life (or your life, for the matter)?
Nothing. It's pointless, that's all.
I'd say, let the believers believe in flying microwave ovens with pink tails. What's the point of convincing them they don't exist? Why do you care, exactly?
I can see only one explanation : you hate it. And hating someone because it insults your aesthetic, intelligence or whatever is simply lack of tolerance/empathy. Like hatred towards gays "because they are disgusting to me", like many Poles say.
Do you consider they have a "right" to hate gay people, out of free speech? Or do you agree that their hatred is pointless?
By the way, schizophrenia is a mental condition, religion isn't. Another comparison that's completely off.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted September 16, 2012 04:59 PM |
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Edited by Corribus at 17:00, 16 Sep 2012.
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@DF
I have to respecfully disagree with the spirit of your argument. I think there's a lot of value in politely examining and critiquing the belief systems of other people. Only in such way do we learn about and gain context for our own beliefs. Moreover I find significant value in putting pen to paper with respect to such philosophical examinations, and in reading about the musings of other people. I mean, the whole discipline of philosophy is based upon debate and questioning the beliefs of others - look at anything written by Plato and you'll see this. A cynic might say there's really no value in philosophical inquiry - that in itself would be an interesting discussion - but while I would agree the benefits aren't very direct or obvious, at the least I think it's natural for humans to wonder about the world, and I see no reason to tell people to stop just because such conversations don't produce anything so obviously beneficial as a cure of cancer.
Granted, I think for discussions to be productive, we should restrict ourselves to critique rather than hostile "bashing", as you call it. Nobody likes to have their beliefs belittled and nobody likes to be looked down upon simply because they believe this or that. On the other hand, people should also not become so sensitive when someone questions something they believe in, even if it's done in a less than congenial way. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. If someone doesn't like yours... oh well.
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