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Simpelicity
Promising
Famous Hero
Video maker
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posted November 17, 2012 04:43 PM |
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If the power rating is still based solely on stats like Lock was saying, then I don't agree to use for anything because in H6 more than any other Heroes game abilities are ever so important. If they're not taken into account your power rating is less accurate than gold cost.
Now then, I went in the game and looked at costs for Necro. I'd say I'll give their cores a value of 150, elites 475, Champion 2000. For those I could go lower if need be, I don't mind much. Then apply those numbers to every faction. It's not perfectly accurate, but more than power ratings, and easier imo. If you apply these numbers to everyone (for the sake of uniformity), the values of each faction are as follows :
Strong : 186 575
Sanct : 187 175
Inf : 181 175
Haven : 184 425
Necro : 191 475
Inferno is a bit low and Necro a bit high. We might want to improve just a little the average costs of inferno troops and lower just a little that of the Necropolis (which is ironic because they're the actual source of the average). The values don't need to all be the same, just in the same general area.
For inferno it's the cores that are dragging its score down (elite value is within the norm of everything else). Increase their core value by 10 (so up to 160) and you get 185 285, much better number in relation to the other factions. As for Necro, it's its elite score that goes through the roof (mainly because of the abnormally high amount of lamasus). Reduce their elite cost by 25 (down to 450) and they get a score of 187 100, back within the boundaries of the acceptable.
Now this is just indicative, not pinpoint accurate, but to calculate that would simply mean this :
Most factions : cores left*150, elites left*475, champions left *2000
Inferno : cores left*160, .........
Necropolis : .......... elites left*450, ..........
Simple recipe, I think. Not perfect, but I prefer that to power ratings I don't believe in.
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"You r the shakespeare of heroes vi, in every single battle i say: "he is gonna to loss"." - Cumulo88
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Locksley
Promising
Famous Hero
Wielding a six-string
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posted November 17, 2012 05:46 PM |
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Edited by Locksley at 18:21, 17 Nov 2012.
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Quote:
This is turning into nuclear science..
That's a valid point and I can buy your sceptisism to counting the gold value. I don't have any expertise in cost balance between the factions, so my suggestion was to make a quick overview. I didn't do that overview myself because I didn't have time to do it, and now you say that gold is a bad indicator, so let's use something else.
Your formula is a good one. But it can actually become even simpler and still relevant. Just skip the power value part like this:
(Remaining / total cores) + (Remaining / total elites) + (Remaining / total champions)
Three values between 0 and 1 are added into a value between 0 and 3.
Examples:
No losses = 3
Losing the duel = 0
Losing the champion but nothing else = 2
For me it doesn't matter that core and elite stacks have the same value in the formula. Which stacks dies or lives depends on the role of the stack (shooter, tank, charger), NOT on the tier.
Some factions tend to lose cores and other factions lose elites, so it's fair enough.
As Simpelicity and I requested champions are more valueable. The champion stack is worth 3 other stacks.
If you think that is too much:
Multiply the core and elite values with 0,67. Then 1 elite stack is worth 2 other stacks.
(Remaining / total cores) x 0,67 + (Remaining / total elites) x 0,67 + (Remaining / total champions)
I hope I didn't make things more complicated, any of these formulas are good enough for me.
EDIT:
It seems Simpelicity and I were writing our recipes at the same time and that he made the overview I didn't do. His recipe is simple and good enough as well.
I'm a bit sceptical to power values too, and even if I know that they are used in the game I can'tfind them listed anywhere in the game which makes them a bit mysterious.
EDIT 2:
I read Simpelicity's proposal again. It's a bit problematic to apply necropolis costs on everone, but like him I think that we can't find a perfect solution. I can accept either method.
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Simpelicity
Promising
Famous Hero
Video maker
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posted November 17, 2012 06:10 PM |
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At the same time.....?
Like they say over here, an hour later in the maritimes...
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"You r the shakespeare of heroes vi, in every single battle i say: "he is gonna to loss"." - Cumulo88
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Locksley
Promising
Famous Hero
Wielding a six-string
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posted November 17, 2012 06:17 PM |
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Edited by Locksley at 18:23, 17 Nov 2012.
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I must have started to write my recipe just before you posted yours.
EDIT: Which means I didn't know that your solution existed when I was writing.
And that's why I edited my solution a lot.
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Simpelicity
Promising
Famous Hero
Video maker
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posted November 17, 2012 06:23 PM |
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The point isn't to take necro's per say, it's to take something and apply it to everyone, with a few adjustments where ever seems necessary. No matter what value you apply to everything, inferno's cores are going to shoot down its value and necro's elites are going to shoot up its value.
I just looked at necro because I wanted numbers that were somewhat realistically representative and necro was the most convenient because I had a savegame of a necro game with fully built up necro castles. That's the only way to get their cost. It could be any faction, it doesn't matter much. But if you want to calculate from another faction's perspective you're the one who gets to build up its castle in a game.
Also, that's just a little thing we say to make a little fun of very late reaction times. Nothing mean at all 
____________
"You r the shakespeare of heroes vi, in every single battle i say: "he is gonna to loss"." - Cumulo88
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Locksley
Promising
Famous Hero
Wielding a six-string
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posted November 17, 2012 06:30 PM |
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Things happen when we talk in different pace.
I have to go, bye!
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted November 17, 2012 09:17 PM |
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I like simpel's idea. Here are the average costs per tier:
Core: 146.67
Elite: 602
Champion: 2179
Now, let's see faction army costs in the map:
Sanctuary: 451x146.67 + 159x602 + 22x2179 = 66148.17 + 95718 + 47938 = 161866 + 47938 = 209804 (236836 with bonus troops)
Necro: 429x146.67 + 175x602 + 22x2179 = 62921.43 + 105350 + 47938 = 168271 + 47938 = 216209 (244310 with bonus troops)
Haven: 458x146.67 + 151x602 + 22x2179 = 67174.86 + 90902 + 47938 = 158077 + 47938 = 206015 (232414 with bonus troops)
Inferno: 411x146.67 + 159x602 + 22x2179 = 60281.37 + 95718 + 47938 = 155999 + 47938 = 203937 (229989 with bonus troops)
Stronghold: 447x146.67 + 159x602 + 22x2179 = 65561.49 + 95718 + 47938 = 161279 + 47938 = 209217 (236151 with bonus troops)
(You are going to pay for making me do all those calculations, yes you are  )
If needed I will calculate the modifier so that all gold values become comparable for each faction.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Locksley
Promising
Famous Hero
Wielding a six-string
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posted November 17, 2012 11:51 PM |
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This is very beautiful. Some thoughts:
Which difficulty level are the bonus creatures we pick up based on? (Good to know when creating a game.)
It's clever to use average cost for all factions' tier 1, 2 & 3 to avoid the problem of applying one faction's costs to everyone.
Since there is both necro and inferno (most expensive & cheap) players it could be useful to make the numbers more comparable. But only do it if it's needed.
Perhaps there will be a clear winner and all of our work is for nothing, but there could be future tournaments with several finalists.
It feels good to have the rules ready.
The changes to terrain and artifact order in the map are 
BTW, tomorrow (Sunday) I'm away from the computer most of the day.
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Simpelicity
Promising
Famous Hero
Video maker
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posted November 18, 2012 04:55 AM |
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Considering I play you early in afternoon monday Lock, it's possible I do both my matches on monday if Elvin is again available at what is midnight for him I think ('round 4 PM for me. I'd rather a little sooner though, if tech problems pop up again I'll have more time).
Looking at your numbers Elvin, there's 2 factions at 209K. If you're going to moderate Inf and Necro already, maybe we could also moderate Haven as well and aim everyone into the 209K. I say that, but I'm most likely done doing math, so that's up to whoever does the stats. Haven does have a slightly lesser value army as well, and is involved twice in our matches. But it's not that low so it can still be fine.
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"You r the shakespeare of heroes vi, in every single battle i say: "he is gonna to loss"." - Cumulo88
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted November 18, 2012 01:12 PM |
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1.2 version up!
There are some more improvements to be made, mostly aesthetics that I will leave for the next tourney version
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Locksley
Promising
Famous Hero
Wielding a six-string
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posted November 19, 2012 04:03 PM |
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I think that unless we get rather close results there is no need calculate anymore. If it differs 100.000 gold between the players the result will not be different because of some adjustments, but if it differs only say 20.000 gold adjustments would be required.
See you later Simpel. I invited you on uplay.
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Simpelicity
Promising
Famous Hero
Video maker
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posted November 19, 2012 04:15 PM |
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Quote:
I think that unless we get rather close results there is no need calculate anymore. If it differs 100.000 gold between the players the result will not be different because of some adjustments, but if it differs only say 20.000 gold adjustments would be required.
See you later Simpel. I invited you on uplay.
Right. I hope I don't get late. Still have 2 things to record (ideally) and then lunch to eat. I should have just enough time.
____________
"You r the shakespeare of heroes vi, in every single battle i say: "he is gonna to loss"." - Cumulo88
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Locksley
Promising
Famous Hero
Wielding a six-string
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posted November 19, 2012 04:44 PM |
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Simpelicity
Promising
Famous Hero
Video maker
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posted November 19, 2012 07:04 PM |
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I'm in-game. My friends tab sees you, not the chat window. It's telling me it's going to send my messages once you're online.
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"You r the shakespeare of heroes vi, in every single battle i say: "he is gonna to loss"." - Cumulo88
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Locksley
Promising
Famous Hero
Wielding a six-string
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posted November 19, 2012 07:07 PM |
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Edited by Locksley at 19:18, 19 Nov 2012.
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Alright, I will restart and get online.
EDIT: In my game the chat box says you are not online
I try again
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Simpelicity
Promising
Famous Hero
Video maker
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posted November 19, 2012 07:15 PM |
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Check HCMs. Let's not clutter this thread.
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"You r the shakespeare of heroes vi, in every single battle i say: "he is gonna to loss"." - Cumulo88
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted November 19, 2012 08:10 PM |
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I'm home earlier than I expected but I'll take some time to have a shower, eat something and relax Will be keeping an eye on the thread, should be available in an hour or so.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Locksley
Promising
Famous Hero
Wielding a six-string
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posted November 19, 2012 10:28 PM |
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Edited by Locksley at 22:58, 19 Nov 2012.
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A crushing defeat
It's been a while since last time I played a might hero so without further ado I got myself a War Master. I knew in theory how to win this game but obviously not in practice, so thankfully the duel turned into a learning institute.
Some of the things I learned:
It's a mighty hoax that magic heroes such as Confessors are weak in the might department. Their griffins can destroy 50 % of stacks in their first battle dive.
Vestals' pacify is a state of mind and can't be dispelled because it's not a spell.
Guradian angel too is not a spell but dispels both spells and war cries. And prevents shoutings and spell casting. And heal the damage done by spells and shoutings when no guardian angel was in place.
It's a good idea to cast waves of renewal before your priestesses are blinded.
Activated abilities make Intimidation useless.
Don't get surrounded by the enemy unless you are a hydra. There are no hydras in this game. (yet?)
Having good initiative is bad. When only the shark guards remain it's pointless to dispel on their turn, because all other stacks have missed their turn and if you dispel something the enemy have plenty of time to put a spell on your creature again.
I had great initiative but it only prolonged my suffering since Simpelicity couldn't control all my stacks directly from the start.
Simpelicity learned that Meditation costs mana, when he was out of mana.
Do your homework because practicing makes you better. Simpelicity's confessor played against Elvin's sanctuary yesterday, in a for him valueable source of information.
You don't have to take notes. The lecture will be published on Youtube.
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Simpelicity
Promising
Famous Hero
Video maker
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posted November 19, 2012 11:01 PM |
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Right, so I also played Elvin today, and I was similarly crushed. Summoning, as I called it, doesn't work on turtles (I should've gone for pyromancer). Also my luck wasn't triggering, but Elvin was telling me it was because of his arties. I dunno. But that was pretty crushing anyways. Pretty sure he had more troops left than I did when I beat Lock, so he won this unless Lock beats him with more troops left than him when he beat me. In all scenarios, I've lost. Second place though, most likely. That's satisfying I guess.
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"You r the shakespeare of heroes vi, in every single battle i say: "he is gonna to loss"." - Cumulo88
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 19, 2012 11:10 PM |
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Is there going to be another tournament before the expansion comes along?
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This thread is pages long: 
