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phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted May 29, 2016 04:35 PM |
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Well there are a lot of heroes I wish had other skills, mostly because the skills sucks, but it is how NWC designed them and imagined them to be and the way I feel at the moment is that those designs should be respected. However skills that are close to useless (My infamous 4: Learning, Eagle Eye, First Aid and Mysticism) really could be improved so they are more than just "skill-slot blockers"...
If Market of Time for some reason is considered a bad idea, at least optional Witch Huts would be helpful.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted May 29, 2016 07:23 PM |
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Edited by Maurice at 19:23, 29 May 2016.
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How about making Market of Time to ...
... allow each visiting Hero to only make use of it once;
... erase just one skill;
... give one random (but available and allowed, just not the one ditched) skill in return;
Would that work?
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted May 29, 2016 08:10 PM |
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Maurice said:
Would that work?
No, you want to use it mostly cause you miss one skill and are ready to sacrifize at least one level to solve the problem. Now, probability for that skill to appear is around 1/16 
In Heroes V you could forget several skills at same time and visit it over and over again. If you wanted a mentor for instance, you would forget a bunch of stuff, even good, to have a better chance of learning it and spend money over and over again to recover what you have lost to get this one, the only restriction was money and due to the limited number of perks and second skills you could more or less be sure to recover everything but basic skills (I don't recall how these two were called and don't have the game installed...), if you spent enouch money.
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phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted May 29, 2016 08:39 PM |
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bloodsucker said:
sacrifize at least one level
Hmm what if it actually did cost 1 level to loose a skill, like actually level down a level to loose a skill or maybe that would be ridiculous?
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted May 29, 2016 08:50 PM |
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Ridiculous? Not a bit but I have a notion how I would do most of what I purpose and that seams way more complex (same goes to know what were the skills each hero started with in a custom map).
Sorry, it's a bad idea cause that in fact eases the process instead of harden it. For instance, you were at 24 when you forgot an expert skill and got a new basic one. If you don't lose a level you need the experience to go from 24 to 26 to get it to expert, if you lose one level you just need the experience between level 23 and 25. Got it?
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted May 29, 2016 09:26 PM |
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Purpose of Market of Time is nothing more than a natural way to counter a Witch Hut you were not satisfied with, forgetting a skill in the purpose of replacing it with potentially better later, a fine idea IMO
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted May 29, 2016 09:30 PM |
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@Galaad But you think that should be costless?
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted May 29, 2016 09:35 PM |
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No ofc not, IIRC there is a fee in wog, but maybe something like loosing all movement points and mana, I don't know.
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted May 29, 2016 09:46 PM |
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Fee in WoG is irrelevant, even learn an advanced level costs more. It's ok cause it is ment to be reusable and complementar to scripts like 9-10 skills, Battle Academy, Wizard's Tower, commander artifacts give secondary skills, etc... In HotA you have but eight slots, the value of being able to forget a skill grows exponentially but you can't pay it in movement and spellpoints, cause it is very possible you need to able to visit a certain place before the next battle.
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phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted May 29, 2016 09:57 PM |
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Seems like there are many ideas how to do this, Maurices idea with taking a skill and replacing it by another random skill, could perhaps also work, for a fee of course.
And Bloodsucker yes the 8 skills in HotA becomes VERY important, that's why it sucks if you are having bad luck with skills.
Regarding skills I actually had a little idea:
Learning in it's current state does'nt do more than reach the next level faster. Learning should have it's own skill slot (9th slot) so all heroes can learn Learning when and if they wan't without wasting a skill. Or Learning could just be made better and actually do something...
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted May 29, 2016 10:16 PM |
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I wouldn't pretend to know how to implement the Market in HotA, I am merely saying I like the concept as it still leaves you a way out from a bad visit at the Hut without loading aka cheating.
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted May 29, 2016 10:35 PM |
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@phoenix4ever You still didn't got it, did you? Due to differences between skill trees in Heroes III and V, their markets were ballanced very differently. While in WoG it is supposed you want to choose what goes in the free slot and it makes no sense to forget a skill if not to immediatly free it, in Heroes V there is in fact small variation between the possibilities of development for a certain base skill (that you try not to forget unless you really don't want it), so the system can be based on chance but once you have money you can basicly redraw till you get what you need.
As it is, Maurice's purposal has very high chance of making things worst, since you probably had a choice between that skill and some other and now is just chance based.
@Galaad Ok, thx.
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phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted May 29, 2016 11:09 PM |
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@Bloodsucker What don't I get? We are merely posting ideas regarding Market of Time, Witch Huts and skills, how you wan't to implement things is completely up to you. My ideas was relating to HotA, of course you are welcome to use them if you wan't.
And if Learning had it's own slot, we at least would'nt have to waste a slot on it.
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted May 29, 2016 11:20 PM |
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Why Heroes V random system doesn't serve HotA.
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markmasters
Famous Hero
Dragon of justice
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posted May 30, 2016 12:33 PM |
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I wouldn't like if you were able to abuse a skill which is good early game like artillery just to toss it out for a better skill later in the game.
You got to think short term vs long term.
I like they way wog offers: this hut has 'diplomacy', do you want it yes/no
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted May 30, 2016 02:15 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 14:19, 30 May 2016.
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markmasters said:
I like they way wog offers: this hut has 'diplomacy', do you want it yes/no
Yes but as I was saying earlier, to me it nullifies the thrill, of course I will say yes if I'm proposed Offense and no if I'm proposed Learning, it's too cheesy.
The whole concept of the Hut is that she teaches you for HER instructional purpose, not yours. You take a bet whether it will serve your interests or not before visiting, or send a scout if you're so scared. 
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hippox89
Famous Hero
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posted May 30, 2016 04:25 PM |
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Galaad said:
The whole concept of the Hut is that she teaches you for HER instructional purpose, not yours. You take a bet whether it will serve your interests or not before visiting, or send a scout if you're so scared.
This is really good, simple explanation for arguing for keeping it the way it is. Of course it can suck when the hut is on the road with a bad skill in it, but there's a ton of other stuff that can bothersome, too, yet which is just considered part of the seed of the generation of a random map. Such as a powerful creature blocking the road, so that you have to go around it.
If there was a choice to escape from getting the skill offered by the witch then it should at least be given before the main witch hut dialog. Like, a message stating if you want to visit her hut or just quitely pass by.
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted May 30, 2016 04:48 PM |
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markmasters said:
I wouldn't like if you were able to abuse a skill which is good early game like artillery just to toss it out for a better skill later in the game.
And are you ok if I abuse Scholar and then forget it to get Neela a good fighting skill?
Ok, there will be ways to abuse the market but what the hell, don't you see that send a scout to check a witch hut is already an abuse? Poor man's TP is an abuse, split tactics is an abuse, changing army positioning to take banks is an abuse, have another hero carring the slow troops is an abuse, etc... most of the fun consists in finding ways to abuse game mechanics, AI or even your human opponent.
Galaad said:
The whole concept of the Hut is that she teaches you for HER instructional purpose, not yours. You take a bet whether it will serve your interests or not before visiting, or send a scout if you're so scared.
I would prefer to have the choice but you have a point, conceptually they should be compulsory.
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Sguazz
Known Hero
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posted May 30, 2016 08:26 PM |
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bloodsucker said:
Is it some conflict in my installation or Neela is again with scholar?
Unfortunately Alchemists start with Mysticism or Scholar...
Warriors of the other factions are more lucky with their main secondary skill 
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted May 30, 2016 08:47 PM |
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She was with Tactics and Armorer in a previous HotA version.
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This Super Thread is pages long: 
