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phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted March 21, 2018 06:44 PM |
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@Hourglass, Dairy and Chrizum
I shall try to answer you all, since you all quoted me. 
@Hourglass Nice you done some math and I can see that your example might actually make New Resistance seem better than the old one, but as you mentioned there are also artifacts giving resistance and HotA introduced Pendant of Reflection, giving even more resistance and there is Thorgrim, so it's quite possible to have more than 20% resistance.
You are also forgetting a psychological aspect of Resistance. Lets say you play the high powered Warlock, Malekith and have the Earth Orb, have Expert Earth Magic and know Implosion. You are facing a Rampart army with tons of Gold Dragons let by a Ranger, it could be Thorgrim or any other Ranger. Of course it would be nice to dispose of their Gold Dragons, but will you really risk casting an expensive spell like Implosion only to see it miss? You know there is a chance it might miss, where as in the new version it will NEVER miss, it will always hit those poor Gold Dragons.
I would probably be more accepting of the change if Gold Dragons were immune to Implosion.
HotA changed Firebirds and Arch Devils, so why not change Gold Dragons, while they are at it...
@Dairy Your idea might be better (better for Gold Dragons at least) but then Resistance will become completely the opposite skill of Sorcery, I don't really know how to feel about that.
@Chrizum Exactly, they are immune to level 1-4, meaning Gold Dragons will always be hit by Implosion, but can't be resurrected. Black Dragons can't be resurrected either, but at least they are immune to Implosion.
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Nik312
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted March 21, 2018 06:44 PM |
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bloodsucker said:
Dairy said:
So thats what is all the fuzz about, because some maps wont be playable ?
Please, open Maps4heroes and see how many custom maps were made till this day before making these kind of observations. Not to mention the difference in quality between a good custom map and what you usually get from the RMG.
Please do that very same thing and then show us at least 2 maps, which depend on resistance skill as much as you (and some others) imply and which will become totally broken with the new mechanic.
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RandomName
Tavern Dweller
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posted March 21, 2018 06:57 PM |
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Hourglass said:
phoenix4ever said:
Problem is they actually made Resistance (and Gold Dragons) worse, instead of looking at really bad skills like Learning, Eagle Eye, First Aid and Mysticism.
And yes it might very well ruin some maps as Salamandre explained perfectly well.
You keep mentioning the Gold Dragons, so I deciced to do some math.
The old expert Resistance blocks spells on 20% rate, so spells go throught 4/5 times. The new resistance doesn't counter the damage, but your gold dragons take less damage from every Implosion cast on them.
In hota, Implosions base dmg is 100, and every spell point adds 75 more dmg.
Let's assume you're up against a hero with 20 spell power. He casts Implosion. If no other modifiers are present, it would deal 1600 dmg.
But old Resistance's block rate is 20%. It's likely that in order to Resistance to get any "value", the hero would need to cast implosion 5 times, so it would be mathematicially most accurate that one of them is blocked. In the process, the opponent would deal 5 x 1600 = 8000 dmg, where 1600 dmg is blocked, so gold dragons would take 6400 dmg in the end.
Okay, let's see what happens with the new resistance.
You're up against the same hero with 20 spell power. All his spells will hit for sure, but this time, 30% of the opponent's spell power is cut. So, one Implosion would deal 1500 x 0,7 + 100 = 1150 dmg. To correctly compare new and old resistance, we would need to multiply that number with 5, because 5 spells were also cast in the first example. That would mean 5750 dmg.
In the end, with the new Resistance, gold dragons would take 650 less damage. Sure, sometimes you can get lucky roll, and in those 5 casts, you may end up blocking 2 or even more spells. But the more games you play, the more it will look like this.
The old resistance can be buffed with the artifacts, but then again, Orb of Vulnerability negates all magic resistances you have.
Yeah, it look like new resistance is better, but remember they buffed the numbers too. With old mechanics and 30% we have:
Implosion hit 7/10 times, that give us 7 x 1600 = 11200
And with new mechanics and 30% we have:
10 hits for 1150 so it equals 11500 damage
still better but not that much.
I don't have strong opinion on this change, yes it made skill less random(which is good for me), but I don't like that it make all opponent spells weaker. Maybe stay with 20% dmg reduction and 20% old resist for spells like slow/blind?
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Hourglass
Supreme Hero
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posted March 21, 2018 08:31 PM |
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phoenix4ever said:
@Hourglass Nice you done some math and I can see that your example might actually make New Resistance seem better than the old one, but as you mentioned there are also artifacts giving resistance and HotA introduced Pendant of Reflection, giving even more resistance and there is Thorgrim, so it's quite possible to have more than 20% resistance.
I did not try to proof that the new resistance is better, but rather that it can be better than the old one. Both new and old versions have their upsides.
As Chrizum already corrected me last page, all classic magic resistance artifacts and the Pendant of Reflection all buff the new resistance aswell, not just the old one.
However, if we take artifacts to count, it's only fair to also consider the Orb of Reflection's presence in the game. It makes the old resistance - no matter how did you get it, and how much you have it - completely useless in fights.
phoenix4ever said:
You are also forgetting a psychological aspect of Resistance. Lets say you play the high powered Warlock, Malekith and have the Earth Orb, have Expert Earth Magic and know Implosion. You are facing a Rampart army with tons of Gold Dragons let by a Ranger, it could be Thorgrim or any other Ranger. Of course it would be nice to dispose of their Gold Dragons, but will you really risk casting an expensive spell like Implosion only to see it miss? You know there is a chance it might miss, where as in the new version it will NEVER miss, it will always hit those poor Gold Dragons.
Yes, the psychological aspect should also be considered. The new version sure doesn't have any mind game potential. I would still say that experienced player would just go for the best play possible, as that would most likely lead him to more victories than loses.
So yes, there are ups and downs in both versions. I've started to write a post of state of each secondary skill, and I hadn't thought that resistance would need any changes.
However, their reasoning make sense to me, and I must admit that I'm a poor multiplayer, and hadn't thought things as they present it.
I understand that it sucks for mapmaker's POV, but then again, it's not like there's not a single way of playing the "old" maps, even if the change has any affect on most of them. Besides, it took way over year from 1.4.2 to 1.5.0 and we have gotten these updates on lightspeed now, I wouldn't be surprised if we need to wait the next patch some time now. In the meantime, we can enjoy any map on with the 1.5.3 patch.
RandomName said:
Yeah, it look like new resistance is better, but remember they buffed the numbers too. With old mechanics and 30% we have:
Implosion hit 7/10 times, that give us 7 x 1600 = 11200
And with new mechanics and 30% we have:
10 hits for 1150 so it equals 11500 damage
still better but not that much.
I'm not 100% sure if I understood your post correctly but,
In my post I'm comparing the old Resistance (20% chance of blocking the spell) to new resistance (cuts 30% of opponent's spell power)
We can't use the "30%" in the case of old mechanic, as it never was like that.
That would mean, the Implosion would hit 8 out of 10 times. Thus making the math like this 8 x 1600 = 12800.
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Erathianer
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 21, 2018 09:03 PM |
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"Resistance secondary skill and Garniture of Interference, Surcoat of Counterpoise, Boots of Polarity, and Pendant of Reflection artifacts reduce enemy hero Spell Power skill during combat instead of increasing a chance to resist a spell"
When the opponent hero has like 50 spellpower, isnt resistance kind of useless when the opponent casts slow, curse, blind or something like that? i liked it that it was possible to resist that!
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OrrinIsTheBest
Known Hero
Invest in your future.
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posted March 21, 2018 09:12 PM |
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bloodsucker said:
Dairy said:
So thats what is all the fuzz about, because some maps wont be playable ?
Please, open Maps4heroes and see how many custom maps were made till this day before making these kind of observations. Not to mention the difference in quality between a good custom map and what you usually get from the RMG.
Tastes surely differ but i felt like i had to mention this:
In terms of quality and being challenging i don't believe custom maps can replace the ones that RMG creates,i mean that's the whole point of templates. Also don't forget that template gives you some knowledge about the map - means you don't have to read a description or save/load every time to have a clue about game. Correct me if im wrong but the true beauty and challenge of this game is that you try to work with what you're given and do your best to succeed. And save/load is not a challenge at all.
Overall i personally love some custom maps too but i play them in case i want something different. But RMG- it's endless challenge...
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Erathianer
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 21, 2018 09:20 PM |
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OrrinIsTheBest said:
bloodsucker said:
Dairy said:
So thats what is all the fuzz about, because some maps wont be playable ?
Please, open Maps4heroes and see how many custom maps were made till this day before making these kind of observations. Not to mention the difference in quality between a good custom map and what you usually get from the RMG.
Tastes surely differ but i felt like i had to mention this:
In terms of quality and being challenging i don't believe custom maps can replace the ones that RMG creates,i mean that's the whole point of templates. Also don't forget that template gives you some knowledge about the map - means you don't have to read a description or save/load every time to have a clue about game. Correct me if im wrong but the true beauty and challenge of this game is that you try to work with what you're given and do your best to succeed. And save/load is not a challenge at all.
Overall i personally love some custom maps too but i play them in case i want something different. But RMG- it's endless challenge...
I am 100% with you. Save/load strategy is for the weak. I love playing custom maps. Just because of the challenge and the surprises it can have. even if you play maps lile "astral venice" or "the fall of atlantis" or "survival of the fittest" they feel different every time u play them.
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted March 21, 2018 10:01 PM |
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Nik312 said:
Please do that very same thing and then show us at least 2 maps, which depend on resistance skill as much as you (and some others) imply and which will become totally broken with the new mechanic.
Sorry, I guess you didn't reed what I wrote. I don't care much about the Resistance in itself, even if I think it was a bad solution but about the nerf to Mass-Slow and Mass-Haste. As a matter of fact, except for the number of times one has to recast Slow and Blind I don't have a problem with the new Resistance, since I usually cast clone on my ArchAngels to resurrect. But when you don't have Water Magic, Clone or ArchAngels I think Resurrection can in fact became a problem.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted March 21, 2018 10:12 PM |
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OrrinIsTheBest said:
In terms of quality and being challenging i don't believe custom maps can replace the ones that RMG creates,i mean that's the whole point of templates.
Umm, no. The random generator does the best it can, yet if you play them against AI only, you will notice that templates are bulsh!t, there is nothing challenging or of any quality inside. They are very bad maps, ugly and straightforward. The only thing which transcends such terrible maps into awesome maps is when you add the human opponent parameter, then the fact that areas are similar so no advantage is given + the template design grants somehow a correct progression.
Playing multiplayer is the best Heroes - without doubt, however the downside is that it requires several hours that you can dedicate continuously - a saved/reloaded game is losing the adrenaline, and that's why a majority of people play only single. And when playing vs AI, you have to design creative maps, otherwise there is no match or fun.
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Era II mods and utilities
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phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted March 21, 2018 10:20 PM |
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Another argument against this new Resistance is that it benefits might heroes more than magic heroes. Why?, because who usually get the most Spell Power?, magic heroes and since Resistance is percentage based, it will usually reduce Spell Power of magic heroes more than might heroes. Another win for might heroes. 
I really wish you would give us an option to play with Classic or New Resistance, HotA Crew.
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kvrier
Tavern Dweller
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posted March 21, 2018 11:28 PM |
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Edited by kvrier at 23:30, 21 Mar 2018.
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I really enjoy the new update, especially bug fixes and skill changes. Reworking resistance gives a practical aplication in PvP games and no longer affects wandering creatures. This is a good step to make more difficult battles against computer player.
This discussion reminds me about the benefits coming from independence of the project. We are not customers and HotA crew is not game publisher. It makes HotA immune to demands and claims from players society. I am using words "demands and claims" because lot of comments are them. There is a line between review and demand.
R0d said:
But this last update in my opinion puts Hota in the same category of WOG, and that's a shame.
In my opinion comparing HotA and WoG after one update is a shame.
phoenix4ever said:
I really wish you would give us an option to play with Classic or New Resistance, HotA Crew.
galo11 said:
Dear HotA members, if you read this, please consider if it would be good way to think about preparing two versions of HotA:
1st in which the Authors will let their imagination run wild and implement every single change/improvement they want,
2nd HotA Crew would limit their influence to add excellent elements that they prepared (castles, units, objects, etc.), fix bugs while leave original game mechanics untouched. I think it will not be lots of work while it let you make many people very happy.
It already exists and its called Heroes of Might and Magic 3 HD Mod.
galo11 said:
Please, think about it; it could be even called "OPE - old prick edition", I do not care, I would be extra happy to see all new elements (in excellent quality presented by you) in game I have played for 20 years.
"You will not teach the old dog new tricks."
The succesful survive of Heroes 3 is based on a very stable inflow of new players, not on a desire of few. HotA completely fulfills this task.
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dydzio
Adventuring Hero
VCMI contributor
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posted March 22, 2018 01:15 AM |
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Edited by dydzio at 01:18, 22 Mar 2018.
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kvrier said:
This discussion reminds me about the benefits coming from independence of the project. We are not customers and HotA crew is not game publisher. It makes HotA immune to demands and claims from players society.
This is probably the biggest crap ever said in this topic and favorizing software communism. If "independence" means complete control and immunity to "whines of users" then this is no different from corporation products that give set of stuff you cannot control, cannot bypass, cannot customize, cannot make lifespan longer after it gets no longer developed.
Open source all the way
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted March 22, 2018 02:01 AM |
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phoenix4ever said:
Another argument against this new Resistance is that it benefits might heroes more than magic heroes. Why?, because who usually get the most Spell Power?
And because some magic classes like Wizards can't even get it unless from witch huts... But since no one plays with magic heroes in MP, I guess it's not a problem.
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kvrier
Tavern Dweller
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posted March 22, 2018 02:39 AM |
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Edited by kvrier at 03:03, 22 Mar 2018.
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You did not quote whole my opinion, however I can do it for you.
kvrier said:
This discussion reminds me about the benefits coming from independence of the project. We are not customers and HotA crew is not game publisher. It makes HotA immune to demands and claims from players society. I am using words "demands and claims" because lot of comments are them. There is a line between review and demand.
dydzio said:
This is probably the biggest crap ever said in this topic and favorizing software communism. If "independence" means complete control and immunity to "whines of users" then this is no different from corporation products that give set of stuff you cannot control, cannot bypass, cannot customize, cannot make lifespan longer after it gets no longer developed.
Open source all the way
In that case you just beat it with your reference to "software communism".
Do not get me wrong. I do not want to offend you but cutting my last words changes sense of my statement.
bloodsucker said:
phoenix4ever said:
Another argument against this new Resistance is that it benefits might heroes more than magic heroes. Why?, because who usually get the most Spell Power?
And because some magic classes like Wizards can't even get it unless from witch huts... But since no one plays with magic heroes in MP, I guess it's not a problem.
Going along this line of thought skills like Intelligence and Sorcery also are unfair. They have greater impact on the magic heroes and they are hard to reach for the might heroes.
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just0
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 22, 2018 02:59 AM |
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Edited by just0 at 03:00, 22 Mar 2018.
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I don't understand why you changed "Resistance" to affect non-offensive spell casts. What's the problem with making it only reduce spell power for enemy spells cast on allied troops? Then you no longer need to change the name and icon to "Shatter Magic" and make HotA a Heroes 3/5 hybrid.
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gorman
Promising
Legendary Hero
Been around since before 2003
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posted March 22, 2018 03:32 AM |
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Would anyone be able to help a noob apply HotA to HoMM3 complete edition off of GOG Galaxy? I tried to put it in the HoMM3 Complete folder but it doesn't work  What'd I do wrong? Besides everything....
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When all else fails... Take notes.... ALL the time... ESPECIALLY when playing D&D.... or Pokemon in my case
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avatar
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted March 22, 2018 06:26 AM |
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You could go wrong for thounsand times. But unless you tell us what you are doing, what happen, what errors you have, post some screen - no one help you because we are not seers 
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Orrinisthebest
Known Hero
Invest in your future.
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posted March 22, 2018 06:38 AM |
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Salamandre said:
OrrinIsTheBest said:
In terms of quality and being challenging i don't believe custom maps can replace the ones that RMG creates,i mean that's the whole point of templates.
Umm, no. The random generator does the best it can, yet if you play them against AI only, you will notice that templates are bulsh!t, there is nothing challenging or of any quality inside. They are very bad maps, ugly and straightforward. The only thing which transcends such terrible maps into awesome maps is when you add the human opponent parameter, then the fact that areas are similar so no advantage is given + the template design grants somehow a correct progression.
Playing multiplayer is the best Heroes - without doubt, however the downside is that it requires several hours that you can dedicate continuously - a saved/reloaded game is losing the adrenaline, and that's why a majority of people play only single. And when playing vs AI, you have to design creative maps, otherwise there is no match or fun.
Yeah i was talking about PvP bc i rarely play against AI since it still is weak af. But again if you believe sparing 4-5 hours for a decent multiplayer game is a big dedication,fine. Have fun playing against boosted AI, like save and load increases the adrenaline there.. smh
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted March 22, 2018 06:44 AM |
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kvrier said:
Going along this line of thought skills like Intelligence and Sorcery also are unfair. They have greater impact on the magic heroes and they are hard to reach for the might heroes.
Harder to reach is not the same as impossible, you can buy them in an University, if you want. On the other hand thanks to exceptions you can be sure your might hero will have a chance to learn Wisdom and some Magic Schools, while there are no exceptions for magic heroes to learn Offense, Armorer or Archery that could be of some use for them too.
gorman said:
Would anyone be able to help a noob apply HotA to HoMM3 complete edition off of GOG Galaxy? I tried to put it in the HoMM3 Complete folder but it doesn't work What'd I do wrong? Besides everything....
Did you run the install? I'm using the same edition and had no problem installing it.
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just0
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 22, 2018 06:49 AM |
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gorman said:
Would anyone be able to help a noob apply HotA to HoMM3 complete edition off of GOG Galaxy? I tried to put it in the HoMM3 Complete folder but it doesn't work What'd I do wrong? Besides everything....
The directory isn't important, just make sure it's consistent.
1. Install Heroes 3 Complete GOG to C:/Games/Heroes3
2. Install HotA_1.5.3_setup.exe to C:/Games/Heroes3
3. Install "HoMM3 HD Latest.exe" to C:/Games/Heroes3
4. Run HD_Launcher.exe found in C:/Games/Heroes3
5. Click "Create HD exe" for both h3hota.exe and Heroes3.exe (use the dropdown)
6. Run HotA from "h3hota HD.exe" and SoD from "Heroes3 HD.exe"
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