Heroes of Might and Magic Community
visiting hero! Register | Today's Posts | Games | Search! | FAQ/Rules | AvatarList | MemberList | Profile


Age of Heroes Headlines:  
5 Oct 2016: Heroes VII development comes to an end.. - read more
6 Aug 2016: Troubled Heroes VII Expansion Release - read more
26 Apr 2016: Heroes VII XPack - Trial by Fire - Coming out in June! - read more
17 Apr 2016: Global Alternative Creatures MOD for H7 after 1.8 Patch! - read more
7 Mar 2016: Romero launches a Piano Sonata Album Kickstarter! - read more
19 Feb 2016: Heroes 5.5 RC6, Heroes VII patch 1.7 are out! - read more
13 Jan 2016: Horn of the Abyss 1.4 Available for Download! - read more
17 Dec 2015: Heroes 5.5 update, 1.6 out for H7 - read more
23 Nov 2015: H7 1.4 & 1.5 patches Released - read more
31 Oct 2015: First H7 patches are out, End of DoC development - read more
5 Oct 2016: Heroes VII development comes to an end.. - read more
[X] Remove Ads
LOGIN:     Username:     Password:         [ Register ]
New Server | HOMM1: info forum | HOMM2: info forum | HOMM3: info forum | HOMM4: info forum | HOMM5: info forum | MMH6: wiki forum | MMH7: wiki forum
Heroes Community > Heroes 3.5 - WoG and Beyond > Thread: [Official Thread] HoMM 3: Horn of the Abyss - Announcements, Questions, Features
Thread: [Official Thread] HoMM 3: Horn of the Abyss - Announcements, Questions, Features This Popular Thread is 324 pages long: 1 40 80 120 160 200 240 280 ... 298 299 300 301 302 ... 320 324 · «PREV / NEXT»
just0
just0


Adventuring Hero
posted March 24, 2018 07:42 AM
Edited by just0 at 07:45, 24 Mar 2018.

imid said:
maybe because it is a great change and most of the players like it?
I very much doubt this. I think we can all agree that the vast majority, if not all heroes 3 players, play for nostalgic purposes. For many, that nostalgia is going to take a hit when they see an iconic skill changed in such a drastic way. Especially when it seems there are perfectly balanceable alternatives that would keep more of the spirit of the original mechanic intact.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted March 24, 2018 08:08 AM

Congratulations dudes (and dudettes?) we've reached page 300! The last 10 pages went by fast.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Sav
Sav


Known Hero
posted March 24, 2018 08:16 AM

imid said:
I'm only worried about the AI, is it better with the new changes? Is there any HOTA mate around to clarify this point?

Yes, AI calculates it not worse than the original one (and even a bit better, as for original one it always calculated an average value, that often did not describe the situation well).

-
As for spellcasting creatures neither new resistance, nor the old one work on creature casts. The second case is not oblivious from game texts, but it works this way in fact.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Hourglass
Hourglass


Adventuring Hero
posted March 24, 2018 09:07 AM

just0 said:
I very much doubt this. I think we can all agree that the vast majority, if not all heroes 3 players, play for nostalgic purposes. For many, that nostalgia is going to take a hit when they see an iconic skill changed in such a drastic way. Especially when it seems there are perfectly balanceable alternatives that would keep more of the spirit of the original mechanic intact.


I'm a nobody when it comes to comment on how you feel when playing Homm3.

However, saying vast majority or even all player's experience nostalgia when playing this game is just wrong. This game is mostly still played because it's a gem in it's own genre. Sure, player's taking like year long pauses might feel nostalgic when they launch the game they haven't played for a very long time. The experienced players who still play on monthly, weekly or even daily basis sure feel some forms of joy and happiness, but nostalgia? Most likely not. By this logic we would feel nostalgia twice a day when we brush our teeth.

Also, there are still new players coming to this game. I, for example, introduced Homm3 + Hota to my friend last year. He wasn't even heard about the franchise. I'm sure he doesn't feel anything like nostalgia, and prefers better gameplay and balance.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
just0
just0


Adventuring Hero
posted March 24, 2018 09:25 AM
Edited by just0 at 09:33, 24 Mar 2018.

Hourglass said:
However, saying vast majority or even all player's experience nostalgia when playing this game is just wrong.
Neither of us really knows how many there really are. However, based on the age of the game, mathematically, there is a much higher probability that the current player base consists of many more people who first played the game years ago, rather than just picked it up for the first time recently. As far as my definition of nostalgia goes I'd say if I'm replaying anything I first played years ago, I'm going to have a sense of nostalgia playing it again. I don't see any reason to limit how often or how much nostalgia you can feel. So go ahead and feel nostalgia while brushing your teeth (as long as you're using the same flavor toothpaste you used when you were a kid).

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
OrrinIsTheBest
OrrinIsTheBest


Known Hero
posted March 24, 2018 09:37 AM

nik312 said:

We could of course make it a simple golem-type resistance and just admit it as a failed skill.

I am really disappointed that you think that way and i hope not everyone in the team has the same mindset.

Golem-type resistance would be the best solution for now,because as before opponent will not know if you have resistance or not therefore turning his strength to weakness by starting with damage spell and no 30 % is big enough,please no more boost. Secondly there is already an artifact to deal with ridiculous resurrect/animate dead and vamp lords. As to elemental spam,i still believe it is a fair power magic heroes possess. In case elemental+armageddon strat gets out of control (since might heroes rarely get expert protection from fire and cape of silence is enabled) then as someone said above you can introduce some artifact that puts a block on that or smth like this.

Again best of luck in your work !

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
just0
just0


Adventuring Hero
posted March 24, 2018 09:42 AM
Edited by just0 at 09:43, 24 Mar 2018.

OrrinIsTheBest said:
as someone said above you can introduce some artifact that puts a block on that or smth like this.
Hi there!

Let's call it the Globe of Planar Interference. It prevents all summoning from the elemental planes.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
StrikerX
StrikerX


Known Hero
The Bringer of Rain
posted March 24, 2018 09:50 AM

just0 said:
OrrinIsTheBest said:
as someone said above you can introduce some artifact that puts a block on that or smth like this.
Hi there!

Let's call it the Globe of Planar Interference. It prevents all summoning from the elemental planes.


And instantly kills entire conflux hero's army at start of battle  j/k

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
just0
just0


Adventuring Hero
posted March 24, 2018 09:55 AM

StrikerX said:
And instantly kills entire conflux hero's army at start of battle  j/k
It's just a barrier to prevent further summoning.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
nik312
nik312


Promising
Famous Hero
posted March 24, 2018 11:24 AM
Edited by nik312 at 12:31, 24 Mar 2018.

OrrinIsTheBest said:
nik312 said:

We could of course make it a simple golem-type resistance and just admit it as a failed skill.

I am really disappointed that you think that way and i hope not everyone in the team has the same mindset.

Golem-type resistance would be the best solution for now,because as before opponent will not know if you have resistance or not therefore turning his strength to weakness by starting with damage spell and no 30 % is big enough,please no more boost. Secondly there is already an artifact to deal with ridiculous resurrect/animate dead and vamp lords. As to elemental spam,i still believe it is a fair power magic heroes possess. In case elemental+armageddon strat gets out of control (since might heroes rarely get expert protection from fire and cape of silence is enabled) then as someone said above you can introduce some artifact that puts a block on that or smth like this.

Again best of luck in your work !


It may come as a surprise, but no, simply providing a counter-artifact for each possible strong strategy is not actually a good balancing approach. Think about it for 5 minutes (by the clock, not figuratively) and I'm sure you'll end up with reasonable understanding of why. Even Ring of Oblivion may have been a step too far.

That the golem resistance would just make the skill totally failed is not even a question, but it is still a possible way this could (maybe still can) go. Just delete the harmful mechanic and make the skill into something even more unusable. Usable only in challenge maps designed for it. If you don't think this so - you probably don't realise just HOW rare and important skill slots are. Against AI it obviously doesn't matter since on 99% of maps you can beat it with any skill progression at all. But at least it would remain as close to original as possible. A shame that magic would have to be countered only by other magic and artifacts, but it is a possible game state.

Quote:
If the new resistance mechanic really does stay intact as it currently exists I really do want the skill's new name to be "Thorgrim GG" and the icon to be Thorgrim's face with his tongue sticking out.

No need to be ridicolous.
Thorgrim was just as big of a potential problem with old resistance as he is with new one (provided the orb of vulnerability was dealt with). Just the anti-berserk and blind have been replaced  with 1-round for all buffs/debuffs (except you can have round-extending artifacts and fully counter that) and anti-summon/ressurect.

Quote:
Who knows when we will receive the next patch? (if ever, with these kind of reactions)

Exactly. Probably no earlier than New Year anyway (no plans, just a feeling).

Quote:
If black orb, resurrect, elemental summon is overpowered they should just nerf them instead of butchering well-known secondary skill.

All right. One last time. It's really excruciating to rephrase the same points time and again since nobody seems to (want to?) get them anyway. But I will try one final time to combine it all and after that I will not make any further comments on it.

First premise - the old resistance had to go. In a sense that the mechanic had to be removed from the skill completely. Why? Because it is a badly designed element for a strategy game. It occupies an extremely important and rare resource (skill slot), while at the same time having no impact in most of the games (black orb) and even if your opponent doesn't find the black orb - there is evidence of a ridiculously high number of games where 20% resistance has no impact on the match whatsoever for the whole entirety of it. No, not even against mass-slow since most times you care only about 1 or 2 particular stacks. At the same time - if it suddenly triggers a couple of times in a row - the game is screwed. There are little ways to recover after 1 skipped cast, there are almost none after 2 or more. If both opponents know what they are doing that is. For that reason you cannot increase the percentage. The same facts force any decent offline player to save-load like crazy in every important battle involving resistance. And mapmakers to account for it. "But Nik, I don't save-load like crazy in my games against AI!". Too bad, you'll underperform on any map harder than RoE campaigns and hard maps should not be balanced with you in mind.

Now that we understand that the old mechanics has to go, what would fit in its place? Obviously nothing random-related, since we're not trying to increase the random factor in an already quite random game. So, either full block of some spells, or the reduction of their effectiveness. [A year and a half of discussions ensue]. Full block doesn't click in any form. Effectiveness reduction mostly makes sense in a golem style, but it obviously makes the skill weaker than before. 30% golem resistance is not worth a whole skill slot. 50% is too much for a single slot. 40% looks and scales weird. Also, too easy for Thorgrim to reach 80% and artifacts don't really fit in well enough (mathematically). At the same time out of all magic threats this would only work on the most boring and easily countered one already - damage spells.
There is however a classical mechanic that affects most spells effectiveness, including the most powerful ones like Summon and Resurrect (both are kinda on-par with implosion in terms of usefulness). Spell Power. And while it is a little weird for "Resistance" to work by directly affecting enemy magic - the impact of such mechanics is strong and interesting enough to let that slip.

That is a shortened story of why resistance had to change in that way. While first part can not change, we may eventually decide that the new mechanics doesn't provide enough results to justify its problems. Maybe we'll change the name and some numbers. Maybe we'll change the flavor of the visuals. Maybe we just give up and send it into golem-oblivion.  

P.S. Since most people tend to forget the beginning of my posts when they reach the end: do not expect me to react to your counter-arguments on any point, unless I really feel like it (trying to provoke me by ridiculousness or rudeness definitely won't work).

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Alyx182008
Alyx182008


Hired Hero
posted March 24, 2018 12:04 PM

nik312 said:

And while it is a little weird for "Resistance" to work by directly affecting enemy magic...


I hope you realize that's one hell of an understatement.
I'll say it again, if HoTA Crew's plan is to ultimately turn this addon in a competitive/eSport version of Heroes 3, that's fine with me (although I'd prefer if this was stated openly and clearly).
But what was done here with Resistance skill is pretty much what a video game dev should never do: sacrifice lore in favor of mechanic. Do you know why Skyrim, even if it's the shiniest Elder Scrolls game, is considered one of the worst of the series? Because they first and foremost decided they wanted a certain mechanic in the game, and then they butchered some lore to fit around it, even if it didn't really make sense (Similar to how the new Resistance is "a little weird").
If HoTA is to become an eSport, than problems with lore don't matter that much, and the Crew can tweak mechanics, such as Resistance, however it wants. I'd just wish people didn't call HoTA an expansion in the same spirit as the original.
But if HoTA crew is not aiming for eSport status, a piece of advice: tread carefully when it comes to lore and mechanics making sense.

P.S. I don't care in the slightest if you are anyone else responds or not.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Legendary Hero
posted March 24, 2018 12:46 PM
Edited by bloodsucker at 12:49, 24 Mar 2018.

nik312 said:
P.S. Since most people tend to forget the beginning of my posts when they reach the end: do not expect me to react to your counter-arguments on any point, unless I really feel like it (trying to provoke me by ridiculousness or rudeness definitely won't work).

Well, since you asked this previously (and notice I'm just talking about custom maps), if you have to fight an enemy whose defense is much higher then your attack the obvious solution is to cast Disrupting Ray and at first sight this seams not to be affected by the change, since Disrupting Ray doesn't have a duration, so SpellPower doesn't affect it. The problem starts when you need to cast it to two or more units, a dozen times each, but the duration of your Slows and Blinds was reduced to an insignificance and you have to constantly recast them. Just try to beat King Minos in my original version of The Red Tent with the new Resistance...  

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
just0
just0


Adventuring Hero
posted March 24, 2018 01:07 PM

nik312 said:
Maybe we just give up and send it into golem-oblivion.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
imid
imid


Hired Hero
posted March 24, 2018 01:17 PM

just0 said:
imid said:
maybe because it is a great change and most of the players like it?
I very much doubt this. I think we can all agree that the vast majority, if not all heroes 3 players, play for nostalgic purposes. For many, that nostalgia is going to take a hit when they see an iconic skill changed in such a drastic way. Especially when it seems there are perfectly balanceable alternatives that would keep more of the spirit of the original mechanic intact.


Well sure, nostalgia is important but, at least for me, it is not enough. H3 is a boring game with all the useless skills and spells, we need some intelligent changes and HOTA team provides us that. These guys take care of all the details...I do not see good arguments in the favor of the old "resistance", except the spirit of old H3, nostalgia, some complains that people can't use a specific strategy, nothing consistent. I think it's time to go one step further and accept some well thought changes that make the game better. I didn't play the game for a long time, I prefer AOW 3, but with the new change(s) here I am again

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted March 24, 2018 01:29 PM

The problem, in my opinion, is not the skills but the actual templates. Nobody puts the question about why heroes have stats over 20, relics equipped, 5th level spells and tons of wiverns/angels as soon  as 3rd week kicks in. When you get such anomaly, of course most skills and vanilla mechanics will start to bleed, they were not fit for that, then weird solution will be proposed. Implosion or summon elemental are end-game spells that should be rewarded after sacrifices and fights, not just from some free zone, or utopias who should not be there. The power of implosion is clearly unbalanced vs 2 weeks army, it was not supposed to be available so early. I think people look in the wrong direction.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Nik312
Nik312


Promising
Famous Hero
posted March 24, 2018 01:37 PM
Edited by Nik312 at 13:43, 24 Mar 2018.

bloodsucker said:
nik312 said:
P.S. Since most people tend to forget the beginning of my posts when they reach the end: do not expect me to react to your counter-arguments on any point, unless I really feel like it (trying to provoke me by ridiculousness or rudeness definitely won't work).

Well, since you asked this previously (and notice I'm just talking about custom maps), if you have to fight an enemy whose defense is much higher then your attack the obvious solution is to cast Disrupting Ray and at first sight this seams not to be affected by the change, since Disrupting Ray doesn't have a duration, so SpellPower doesn't affect it. The problem starts when you need to cast it to two or more units, a dozen times each, but the duration of your Slows and Blinds was reduced to an insignificance and you have to constantly recast them. Just try to beat King Minos in my original version of The Red Tent with the new Resistance...  


The particular situation suggests a lot of solutions. Ring of Magi being the most obvious one. If its components are not available - just get enough mana and/or Magi ability. If there was some ridiculous number of resistance already (like 70-100%) that this is impossible - it probably didn't work with the original resistance as well. Also, I suspect that are very few maps where the whole idea of an enemy is him having a ton of resistance and you having to overcome it by casting something a 100 times.

P.s. But I will check out the map you mentioned

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
imid
imid


Hired Hero
posted March 24, 2018 01:42 PM

Sav said:
imid said:
I'm only worried about the AI, is it better with the new changes? Is there any HOTA mate around to clarify this point?

Yes, AI calculates it not worse than the original one (and even a bit better, as for original one it always calculated an average value, that often did not describe the situation well).

-
As for spellcasting creatures neither new resistance, nor the old one work on creature casts. The second case is not oblivious from game texts, but it works this way in fact.


Thanks Sav! For me it's clear that some important smart changes should be made to balance the game so that all the players can still enjoy H3. If the game is fun and challenging, I'm sure new maps and campaigns are going to appear. As long as the new changes are implemented in the right way, which is in fact true only for this mode, I support HOTA team 100%! Cheers!  

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
imid
imid


Hired Hero
posted March 24, 2018 02:04 PM

Salamandre said:
The problem, in my opinion, is not the skills but the actual templates. Nobody puts the question about why heroes have stats over 20, relics equipped, 5th level spells and tons of wiverns/angels as soon  as 3rd week kicks in. When you get such anomaly, of course most skills and vanilla mechanics will start to bleed, they were not fit for that, then weird solution will be proposed. Implosion or summon elemental are end-game spells that should be rewarded after sacrifices and fights, not just from some free zone, or utopias who should not be there. The power of implosion is clearly unbalanced vs 2 weeks army, it was not supposed to be available so early. I think people look in the wrong direction.


This is a very good point, the templates are also very important besides balancing some of the skills.

If you want implosion or summon elemental (and maybe other spells) to really be end-game spells, they should depend of the heroe's level...and "learning" should let the hero learn the spells earlier by decreasing the number of levels required to learn a new skill. Is there a different proposed solution or a discussion about that?    

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted March 24, 2018 02:08 PM

imid said:
I do not see good arguments in the favor of the old "resistance", except the spirit of old H3, nostalgia, some complains that people can't use a specific strategy, nothing consistent.

I provided many good arguments against it, so did others, but you did'nt care to read any of those?

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
imid
imid


Hired Hero
posted March 24, 2018 02:52 PM

phoenix4ever said:
imid said:
I do not see good arguments in the favor of the old "resistance", except the spirit of old H3, nostalgia, some complains that people can't use a specific strategy, nothing consistent.

I provided many good arguments against it, so did others, but you did'nt care to read any of those?


yep, I've read your stuff but didn't find the arguments interesting enough. I would agree, though, that the skill should be renamed. I hope that the new version at the end of the year is going to come with important balance changes. But the real discussion should include the templates (I'm with Salamandre on this one) and how to improve AI in the battles (if that's possible).

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Jump To: « Prev Thread . . . Next Thread » This Popular Thread is 324 pages long: 1 40 80 120 160 200 240 280 ... 298 299 300 301 302 ... 320 324 · «PREV / NEXT»
Post New Poll Post New Topic Post New Reply

Page compiled in 0.1993 seconds