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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted March 24, 2018 03:16 PM |
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Edited by Maurice at 15:21, 24 Mar 2018.
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I would like to ask everyone to cool down a little. Take a step back from the monitor, take a slow breath or two and clear your head, as I have the feeling that things are heating up a little too much - and not in a good sense. We can also do without the meme's, thank you.
The HotA team have stated that this is the first of some important skill changes and/or balance attempts to remove some rather ugly and glaring inconsistencies in the game. One of the major hurdles to overcome is perhaps not the programming aspect, or even the internal discussions, but overcoming the public emotions about these changes.
In the end, though, in order to change some long-lasting imbalances, you have to make an incision at a certain point and start cutting, in hopes of making changes that in the end will make for a better product. Now an important aspect here is that the HotA team has a vision for where they want to go with this game - which would be trying to remain as true to what makes Heroes 3 Heroes 3, while at the same time rectifying a few ugly corners that the original developers took. It doesn't matter much at this moment in time whether the original developers didn't have the time, money or simply the will to remedy those ugly parts - it's up to us now, as fans of the game, who still have emotional attachment to it.
Since we as players lack the insight and vision of the HotA development team, we can only pass judgment on what is released so far. Such a radical skill change - and I have to agree, this change makes for a new skill, not a changed one - is not unlike any other radical change in the history of humanity at large: it's bound to cause friction, people who have their own thoughts and ideas, without grasping the full scope of what the developers have in mind.
Now I am not sure if it's a wise idea for the HotA team members to already unveil what other changes they have in mind, as that might spark even further friction and resistence to it, or whether it's better to just wait patiently while they do their magic. But in the end, I have much more faith in their ability to do what is "right" for the game than I had in what UbiSoft ever did with the recent titles they released.
On a personal note, I do have a few questions that I wonder if it has crossed the minds of the HotA team members. As far as I can see it, this skill change - and the upcoming ones in the (near?) future - all present basically changes to the framework of the game, not unlike what the original developers did in the base game when they released its expansions. Maps were divided into different eras, each even displayed as such with a specific icon. It indicated in which version of the game and with which expansion in mind the map was created. Maps that became unplayable were fixed with a new version of the same map, if I am not mistaken. The question therefore is, with such major changes to the core of the game, isn't it worthy of re-versioning the upcoming patch from HotA 1.5.x to HotA 2.0.0? You can then put every map currently existing under the HotA versions up till now with its own section, just like the original developers did with the maps when they first released Armageddon's Blade and then Shadow of Death. They even took care of backwards compatibility, for instance by making the "live" Lord Haart available in the RoE maps and campaigns and the "undead" Lord Haart from Armageddon's Blade onwards. In this particular case, the game would use the "old" Resistance skill for all maps marked as pre-HotA 2.0.0, while using the "new" Resistance skill for all maps from 2.0.0 onwards. Same as for other skills and spells that will see changes. Would such a thing be a feasible solution to implement? It would alleviate all of the concerns of map makers and players alike, I would think.
The second question I have, is since the skill is such a radical change from the old one: have you considered just adding it as a new skill instead? I realise this impacts game balance just as well, since adding a full new skill would bring it up to 28 and mess up all the odds of getting skills across the board - including the odds of getting it from Witch Huts and Universities.
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nik312
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted March 24, 2018 03:35 PM |
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Quote:
Would such a thing be a feasible solution to implement? It would alleviate all of the concerns of map makers and players alike, I would think.
The second question I have, is since the skill is such a radical change from the old one: have you considered just adding it as a new skill instead? I realise this impacts game balance just as well, since adding a full new skill would bring it up to 28 and mess up all the odds of getting skills across the board - including the odds of getting it from Witch Huts and Universities.
We usually update the official maps with each change and encourage mapmakers to do the same. For now we plan to continue this approach. The changes to existing elements are not regular enough for it to be a huge problem.
As for the second question... We did consider it. We may consider it again. But if this is the way it eventually goes — the old skill will be definitely banned by default.
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phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted March 24, 2018 03:42 PM |
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Awesome idea Maurice! 
Have the new Resistance be a completely new skill, then map makers can turn both Old and New Resistance on or off at will.
Then HotA will also have to come up with a new name for the new skill, something like "Magical Suppression" sounds about right.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted March 24, 2018 04:00 PM |
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phoenix4ever said:
Awesome idea Maurice!
then map makers can turn both Old and New Resistance on or off at will.
I would make them mutually exclusive, though  . Keep in mind that this would also affect Thorgrim and his specialty.
And yes, I have to agree that the name of the skill doesn't match up with its new function. Perhaps it could be renamed? But that's up to the HotA team.
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just0
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 24, 2018 04:11 PM |
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Edited by just0 at 16:50, 24 Mar 2018.
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Maurice said:
And yes, I have to agree that the name of the skill doesn't match up with its new function.
Given that "Resistance" was never called "Magical Resistance" I think it's safe to say we could just call the new skill "Suppression" by itself.
I also like the idea that it is an aura of mental dissonance that only affects enemy heroes. So I think the name "Dissonance" would work as well.
However, remaking skills like this presents the difficulty with Thorgrim and other heroes that start with "Resistance" as "Suppression/Dissonance" just wouldn't fit these heroes properly.
Which is why I am for a change that would keep more of the spirit of the original mechanic intact, even if it does "send it into golem-oblivion" like Nik says.
If the name/icon for the new "Resistance" does change, I think Thorgrim should be replaced with a former pegasus rider, as the magic damper aura would be more in line with an aura of suppression/dissonance. At least on maps that use the new mechanic. Kind of like Sylvia/Beatrice.
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phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted March 24, 2018 04:46 PM |
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Maurice said:
I would make them mutually exclusive, though . Keep in mind that this would also affect Thorgrim and his specialty.
You are right, both can't be active at the same time, it would'nt work with the artifacts either.
Then we could have Resistance or Suppression, that should satisfy old school players like me and fans of the new mechanic as well.
That really seems to be the best solution.
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Hourglass
Supreme Hero
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posted March 24, 2018 05:13 PM |
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I agree on renaming and giving new resistance a new icon. It's very likely that a player new to Hota will just download the file. Even he would read the patch notes, I feel that stuff like this is easy to miss. What comes to the new name, I would vote for "Suppression"
Since Hota is aiming to be "the" multiplayer platform, one solution could be making the new resistance a standard option in random maps and banning the old one there, as it's not like many multiplayer games are played in custom maps. The old one could still be used by map makers, and this would make the old maps fully combatible with any future patches.
Also, I feel banning Thorgrim in random maps, and introducing a new "suppression specialist ranger" could be a good idea, as Thorgrim is kinda iconic and well-known for his magic resistance ability. I feel other heroes starting with resistance could stay as they are, but start with new resistance secondary skill instead.
I'm sure this would not satisfy everyone, but atleast map makers would avoid any problems this change might cause.
Peace
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just0
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 24, 2018 05:18 PM |
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Edited by just0 at 17:19, 24 Mar 2018.
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Hourglass said:
Peace
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Djangoo
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 24, 2018 06:33 PM |
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Edited by Djangoo at 18:34, 24 Mar 2018.
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Salamandre said:
The problem, in my opinion, is not the skills but the actual templates. Nobody puts the question about why heroes have stats over 20, relics equipped, 5th level spells and tons of wiverns/angels as soon as 3rd week kicks in. When you get such anomaly, of course most skills and vanilla mechanics will start to bleed, they were not fit for that, then weird solution will be proposed. Implosion or summon elemental are end-game spells that should be rewarded after sacrifices and fights, not just from some free zone, or utopias who should not be there. The power of implosion is clearly unbalanced vs 2 weeks army, it was not supposed to be available so early. I think people look in the wrong direction.
Absolutely, 100% right, I wish there had been more discussion about the richness of templates in the past. Before the Hota template editor, there was not a single template that I considered balanced or fun.
Just take a look at how the old vanilla maps were designed, that is what the game is to supposed to be balanced around imo and like he said, you were supposed to win with creatures mainly from your starting town and not tons of wyvern every game.
Not complaining though, just a different perspective from someone who only recently started playing random maps with awesome Hota Tempalte editor.
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StrikerX
Known Hero
The Bringer of Rain
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posted March 24, 2018 07:40 PM |
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Djangoo said:
Salamandre said:
The problem, in my opinion, is not the skills but the actual templates. Nobody puts the question about why heroes have stats over 20, relics equipped, 5th level spells and tons of wiverns/angels as soon as 3rd week kicks in. When you get such anomaly, of course most skills and vanilla mechanics will start to bleed, they were not fit for that, then weird solution will be proposed. Implosion or summon elemental are end-game spells that should be rewarded after sacrifices and fights, not just from some free zone, or utopias who should not be there. The power of implosion is clearly unbalanced vs 2 weeks army, it was not supposed to be available so early. I think people look in the wrong direction.
Absolutely, 100% right, I wish there had been more discussion about the richness of templates in the past. Before the Hota template editor, there was not a single template that I considered balanced or fun.
Just take a look at how the old vanilla maps were designed, that is what the game is to supposed to be balanced around imo and like he said, you were supposed to win with creatures mainly from your starting town and not tons of wyvern every game.
Not complaining though, just a different perspective from someone who only recently started playing random maps with awesome Hota Tempalte editor.
The template editor is definately the way to go. I've been creating a few and it's easy to trim down maps to exactly what you want by removing amounts of resource piles that can appear, warehouses, and anything else like amounts of conservatories and wyvern trees that can appear. It's become to easy to get resources even starting on impossible difficulty it wasn't even needed to capture mines and still have 100's of each resource.
In the starting zones I removed any of the main creature banks that gave alot of resources or made them to appear only once, trimmed down the hero training buildings to max of 1 each and allowed only 1 watermill, windmill, etc on most everything else. Maps turn out pretty good with a variety of stuff and more of a need to capture mines.
On that note is there a place to download player made templates besides the ones provided with HotA? I do alot of random maps now that we can create pretty decent ones and would be cool to play other templates especially more H/XH/G ones.
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just0
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 24, 2018 07:45 PM |
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StrikerX said:
especially more H/XH/G ones.
Yes, please.
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Gauvain
Tavern Dweller
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posted March 24, 2018 08:46 PM |
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For H XH and G maps HotA need more players and towns, 8 players it's insufficient.
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just0
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 24, 2018 09:18 PM |
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Edited by just0 at 21:19, 24 Mar 2018.
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Gauvain said:
For H XH and G maps HotA need more players and towns, 8 players it's insufficient.
XL+U is larger than H. XH is only slightly larger than XL+U.
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StrikerX
Known Hero
The Bringer of Rain
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posted March 24, 2018 09:51 PM |
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Edited by StrikerX at 21:53, 24 Mar 2018.
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I created a link to a XL template I made in a separate post. It's a simple 8 player map but well balanced to not have a ton of resources and spells like resurrect and town portal, fly, dd, etc are banned.
HotA Template
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted March 24, 2018 10:02 PM |
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The resources quantity is not important, neither the spells in guilds. If you want proper and calibrated game, design it into 2 zones, 1-2 towns each, remove ALL guards between and goodies as relics and utopias. You will see how skills as scouting, intelligence and eagle eye, as well as magic casters will become very handy early. Well, that would be my choice anyway, I believe game is about interaction, not each one preparing in his corner.
____________
Era II mods and utilities
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StrikerX
Known Hero
The Bringer of Rain
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posted March 24, 2018 10:12 PM |
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Edited by StrikerX at 22:57, 24 Mar 2018.
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Salamandre said:
The resources quantity is not important, neither the spells in guilds. If you want proper and calibrated game, design it into 2 zones, 1-2 towns each, remove ALL guards between and goodies as relics and utopias. You will see how skills as scouting, intelligence and eagle eye, as well as magic casters will become very handy early. Well, that would be my choice anyway, I believe game is about interaction, not each one preparing in his corner.
Well if you have any templates you'd like to share 
I don't do mp so it's not designed for it and games against AI are just way too easy with town portal and resurrect. Instant gg with earth magic.
For me limiting resources was very important to making it harder on a random map against AI's. Even on impossible with normal settings, I had 50 to 100+ of each resource fast with no mines and was too easy to build up town quick.
For this map it's just a fun, well balanced map around a treasure center with 1 utopia and 1 enlightenment building in center area. All other hero's training are limiting to 1 each at default frequency and just 1 black market.
Also I have many 'ai useless' secondary skills disabled like eagle eye, scouting, learning, etc.. I'd rather the AI get useful secondaries like expert fire for berserk or other expert mage abilities.
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OrrinIsTheBest
Known Hero
Invest in your future.
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posted March 25, 2018 09:59 AM |
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Very rich template that can be played on XL+U-G+U. I designed it for 1v1 and 2v2 PvP matches but can be played with AI too:
Template
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted March 25, 2018 12:44 PM |
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OrrinIsTheBest said:
Very rich template that can be played on XL+U-G+U. I designed it for 1v1 and 2v2 PvP matches but can be played with AI too
Uau, you said it all... 
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just0
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 25, 2018 05:55 PM |
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Edited by just0 at 18:34, 25 Mar 2018.
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I modified the "Original template pack" using the template editor but it crashes when I try to even select it from the dropdown.
Is this a bug or have I done something wrong?
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Sav
Known Hero
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posted March 25, 2018 06:02 PM |
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Newline symbol in description is wrong. Have you edited the description using template editor or just opened as a plain text?
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