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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted January 04, 2020 04:51 PM |
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Rakso said:
Actually no, it's even going to the better...
Oh, thanks nonexistent god. I was wondering how will one of my favorite maps (Conquest of Heaven and Hell) behave now that Elleshar's Intelligence was cut to an half but since I've got the feedback from an expert I can rest my head.*
* In case some HotA apologist doesn't get it: THE PREVIOUS COMMENTARY IS IRONIC.
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Rakso
Adventuring Hero
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posted January 04, 2020 05:07 PM |
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bloodsucker said:
Rakso said:
Actually no, it's even going to the better...
Oh, thanks nonexistent God. I was wondering how will one of my favorite maps - Conquest of Heaven and Hell, behave now that Elleshar's Intelligence was cut to an half but since I've got the feedback from an expert I can rest my head.*
* In case some HotA apologist doesn't get it: THE PREVIOUS COMMENTARY IS IRONIC.
* Replying besides of the irony *
Obviously the author of that map should still edit it briefly to make up for the newest version - nothing happen if noone does anything, but that's quick to do, as I said, less than a day, maybe two. Maximum mana possible for HotA on last version was 11286. Now it's 6632(Andra + 99 knowledge + 74 level + Mana vortex) due to nerf, althrough you can still bypass limit up to max ever value, which is probably pff I dunno(32767?) simply by drinking mana potions along the way, which probably still is more than enough for that map. In case if you, or someone else know the map very well in detail, and it's author is innactive and at rest, you can update it instead for instance, just as Salamandre did for the Empire of the Earth DarkLord's maps.
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BADiViN3R
Tavern Dweller
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posted January 04, 2020 05:16 PM |
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Does anyone know if in Hota there is a limit of -3 and +3 luck and morale?
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted January 04, 2020 05:16 PM |
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@Rakso Just try the map. You spend all the mana over and over just to handle each battle and when I played it, last time was several months ago, I had him at level 74 with 99 in ALL primary skills before half of it was taken.
But for all I know Maygwan is active so it's his problem, not mine. Me on the other hand, I'll be replacing my Intelligence specialist for something else in my own map. (Yeah, I'm also working on one...).
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted January 04, 2020 05:29 PM |
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@slow nerf
They know better than creator. I don't think so.
Ok I can tell you. Capablanca who was world chess champion from 1921 to 1927. He developed chess board 10x10, normal chess board has 8x8. Ok to tournament for Capablanca chess board and his rule. He lost all chess games. But chess can no longer change rules, if Capablanca would have won it all. Nowadays we have a Capablanca chess board in chess shop.
What then? Alternative game. If you want to play HOTA like Capablanca chess board talked about balance.
Maybe idea is good, but implementation is bad. In reality player who doesn't want to lose game, therefore change the rules. Normally the rule is too difficult, psychologist said. But Homm rule isn't power than transport, etc JVC hasn't created rule than engine what you can do, and what you can't do, also he hasn't forced you to play the rule and the game.
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Fight MWMs - stand teach
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Hourglass
Supreme Hero
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posted January 04, 2020 05:31 PM |
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Galaad said:
Well it's not really justified to riot about something that is free... If a player doesn't like the changes no one is forcing him to play it. If he really wants to, he can try to mod the mod. Without doubt the crew is aware balance changes doesn't please everyone, but they do this on their free time too.
Couldn't agree more. What I meant was that I still have fresh in memory the time when Hota changed Resistance. People went pretty nuts about it, and not in a good way. BTW, that was propably the last time we saw nik312 around here, hopefully the harsh feedback (or "feedback") has nothing to do with that case.
Personally I think the Slow change is a step towards better gameplay. It makes the game harder, but people have complained about the OPness of slow nearly 2 decades, so it's about time something happens to it. I'm really open for new changes. Sometimes just changing some numbers can make a huge difference, but I hope that in some cases even dramtic changes can be done. (I'm looking at you, Eagle Eye) They have promised to stay as original as possible and trying to keep the original spirit of the game as it is/was, and so far, they have done really good job imo.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted January 04, 2020 05:38 PM |
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@Rakso
Well, if something as slow get even a minimal change, I know that all of my maps would be impossible to complete. How many maps on Hota you released, btw?
(damnt there is problem with pages display, I was replying directly after Rakso's comment but my post is now 1 page later)
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted January 04, 2020 05:47 PM |
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Yeah! They test everything pretty well and changes are always for the better even if sometimes mapmakers will have to retest all battles and so on...
So, don't you feel like Intelligence has a weird progression? I mean, starts at the same 25% then droops to 35% (what's this number?) to end at 50%. Why?
Well, my guess is: because if it was less then 25% Eovacious wouldn't be able to cast Clone at level 1. So, instead of giving him Water Magic or changing Navigators primary skills to 1/0/1/3, they nerfed the skill in a way that allows it.
Good to know where their priorities stand.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted January 04, 2020 05:52 PM |
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I have no problems with a mod being driven multiplayer only. I only say that for careful map designers it may become a pain in the a$$ if some mechanic gets suddenly a change. Despite what Rakso claims, a map based on close fights is unlikely to be just "updated" to the new configuration, you have to redo everything from scratch, because one change to one battle creates new parameters for the next battle and so on.
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted January 04, 2020 06:14 PM |
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Salamandre said:
I have no problems with a mod being driven multiplayer only. I only say that for careful map designers it may become a pain in the a$$ if some mechanic gets suddenly a change.
Yeah! I haven't thought about that before but... how about the Logistics nerf and all those maps where you start with no town and need exactly 7 days to take one? If Logistics or boots and gloves were taken into account bye, bye map. (Even if here it can really be just a matter of hours to make the changes)
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Gandalf196
Disgraceful
Supreme Hero
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posted January 04, 2020 06:14 PM |
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Ghost said:
@slow nerf
They know better than creator. I don't think so.
Ok I can tell you. Capablanca who was world chess champion from 1921 to 1927. He developed chess board 10x10, normal chess board has 8x8. Ok to tournament for Capablanca chess board and his rule. He lost all chess games. But chess can no longer change rules, if Capablanca would have won it all. Nowadays we have a Capablanca chess board in chess shop.
What then? Alternative game. If you want to play HOTA like Capablanca chess board talked about balance.
Maybe idea is good, but implementation is bad. In reality player who doesn't want to lose game, therefore change the rules. Normally the rule is too difficult, psychologist said. But Homm rule isn't power than transport, etc JVC hasn't created rule than engine what you can do, and what you can't do, also he hasn't forced you to play the rule and the game.
Nice, but just a little correction: Capablanca chess is played on a 10×8 board.
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gnollking
Supreme Hero
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posted January 04, 2020 07:00 PM |
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I don't really post here much (quite an understatement), but I've been working (and now sitting) on some juicy HotA maps for quite a while. The biggest one being well over a year in the making at the moment and still going strong. This update is by far my most favorite to date. Seriously love the wasteland stuff 
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Rakso
Adventuring Hero
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posted January 04, 2020 07:17 PM |
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Salamandre said:
@Rakso
Well, if something as slow get even a minimal change, I know that all of my maps would be impossible to complete. How many maps on Hota you released, btw?
Only a few, for older versions, even way before the Highlands update, but those weren't of the quality style which you undoubtedly prefer, but good enough atleast these are such a simple and classic type of maps, so they aged up with the updates pretty well, and could stand up to the news good enough. I switched for the in-depth mapmaking style later on(maybe not as Extreme to value every single battle with every single monster you meet, but still deep) and began to work with such a scenario later on, and still work in progress.
As for your slow problem that happens if fights on your maps have no alternatives for be outcomed in any exceptional way to the one you hint the player to perform. Puzzle fights with only one solution instead of atleast two or three valuable different tactics to win one. The change for giving few or multiple solutions on a fight can hurt your feelings of a perfect battle mashup and give no impossible threat on the battlefield itself to the player, but can weaken the player enough for other fights, if not kill him, if he performs them wrong. That solution causes more time based impact rather than showing rightaway the big mistake.
Salamandre said:
I have no problems with a mod being driven multiplayer only. I only say that for careful map designers it may become a pain in the a$$ if some mechanic gets suddenly a change. Despite what Rakso claims, a map based on close fights is unlikely to be just "updated" to the new configuration, you have to redo everything from scratch, because one change to one battle creates new parameters for the next battle and so on.
As you make your bed, so you must lie upon it.
Maps with one-directional set of solutions get a way bigger destructive impact suffering from the patches than maps prepared for so do. If your map can't stand the test of time and automatically appear to end up as impossible after a smallest of a patch, and reworking them needs total reworks from you, then the "pillars" were designed badly. It's quite obvious updates will come. Mapmaking the way you, or others do in this case is wrong. Perhaps HotA isn't meant for you. Good that there are alternatives such as SoD, ERA, or own modding case.
Desplite that, as long as the map is still played on the version of the mod it was meant for to exist it's still flawless and immortal. People use to create other instances of the game to just play a story custom map at times, only not to mess it with their multiplayer world on the other. Considering so happening, getting an older version of HotA wouldn't be an issue for them either I suppose, althrough it's rather on the mapmaker side of duties to make it easier for the player, to update the map aswell, unrequiring of him to addapt, rather than burying the creation as it is, claiming you are over with it. Personally I suppose it's hightly disrespectful as a mapmaker to do so.
bloodsucker said:
Yeah! I haven't thought about that before but... how about the Logistics nerf and all those maps where you start with no town and need exactly 7 days to take one? If Logistics or boots and gloves were taken into account bye, bye map. (Even if here it can really be just a matter of hours to make the changes)
Absolutely none "bye, bye". Oasis, watering place, road etc. Few minutes of work to fix the whole thing up. If you already calculated all the exact movement points before, then it's even simplier to playtest a single time to count how much you're lacking, so you'll know how much more you'll need to boost with the other means. You can make it up to abuse one Oasis even a bit of times, so that it's harder to notice for the hotheaded kind of players, if your map is meant to be more, you know what.
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LordInsane
Known Hero
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posted January 04, 2020 07:35 PM |
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Hourglass said:
I first also thought that the Diplo lost so much, but then I realized that they actually allow joiners now in tournament rules. I think it's a fair change overall, that breaks the OPness of diplomacy, while still allowing it to have it's core mechanic, which to me is about getting creatures, not getting free creatures. If you were playing without Tournament loses, this is somewhat a letdown, but I think overall this will enrich the PVP gamaplay.
Let's hope there's a limit to that kind of logic, then. I like HOTA, but the more something I'm not interested in the slightest in pushes changes to the detriment of what I am interested in, the less the mod remains something I can honestly recommend. This diplomacy change is relatively minor, but excusing it with "If you were playing without Tournament loses, this is somewhat a letdown, but I think overall this will enrich the PVP gamaplay" leads in a worrying direction for people like me.
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted January 04, 2020 08:53 PM |
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gnollking said:
I've been working (and now sitting) on some juicy HotA maps for quite a while. The biggest one being well over a
year in the making at the moment and still going strong...
Please, where are they published and under which name? I tried gnollking in maps4heroes and it returned 0... I'm truly curious, since I've used many things made by you in WoG.
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gnollking
Supreme Hero
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posted January 04, 2020 09:12 PM |
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bloodsucker said:
Please, where are they published and under which name? I tried gnollking in maps4heroes and it returned 0... I'm truly curious, since I've used many things made by you in WoG.
Unreleased at the moment. I will post here when I'm ready but don't hold your breath, will take some time. I did post quite actively in 2009-2012, and although my activity here dropped my time spent on the game didn't!
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gatecrasher
Famous Hero
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posted January 04, 2020 10:02 PM |
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Salamandre said:
I have no problems with a mod being driven multiplayer only. I only say that for careful map designers it may become a pain in the a$$ if some mechanic gets suddenly a change. Despite what Rakso claims, a map based on close fights is unlikely to be just "updated" to the new configuration, you have to redo everything from scratch, because one change to one battle creates new parameters for the next battle and so on.
The constant changes are annoying for MP, too. I'm open for skill changes but there should be a constant, final "set of rules" at some point.Currently it is an unfinished, moving-target situation.
Maybe that's intended and they want the MP playstyle to continuously evolve.
Doomforge said:
Slow - idk, I don't think the -1 really matters that much, it's the MASS nature of a level 1 spells that really matters. Haste should see a nerf too.
That -1 speed nerf is substantial, especially for slow creature banks. You may prefer the H2 mass spells over the H3 ones but changing this will profoundly change the game.
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted January 04, 2020 10:49 PM |
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Is it possible to just edit the templates so the maps will have 100% of the creatures joining? This is by far the change I like the least.
I admit I have quite a bad temper by I even get mad when some stack asks me twice his value to join, feels like I'm buying a shirt, I can see the price on the tag and the seller is asking me for the double.
P.P.S. It is.
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Dairy
Known Hero
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posted January 04, 2020 10:50 PM |
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Any actively updated game is shifted and evolving. People need to adapt to these changes and professional players more than anybody else. This trend is present in every single game. Even HotA guys needs to backtrack and debug some of their maps/campaign maps with these changes.
Some new info, if everything goes well we will have some new info until the end of January, otherwise its February-March.
3rd lvl unit "short animation" in link below:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=16&v=Lwalj8xE-Jw&feature=emb_logo
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Pollo2002
Famous Hero
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posted January 04, 2020 11:06 PM |
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Just love the new direction of hota, in fact i hope they go faster and significantly more aggressive with changes.
Hota is the reason im playing so much heroes now.
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