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Heroes Community > Heroes 3.5 - WoG and Beyond > Thread: [Official Thread] HoMM 3: Horn of the Abyss - Announcements, Questions, Features
Thread: [Official Thread] HoMM 3: Horn of the Abyss - Announcements, Questions, Features This Popular Thread is 420 pages long: 1 50 100 150 200 250 300 350 400 ... 411 412 413 414 415 ... 420 · «PREV / NEXT»
Hourglass
Hourglass


Famous Hero
posted May 01, 2020 12:04 PM
Edited by Hourglass at 12:07, 01 May 2020.

bloodsucker said:
It was when they nerfed the absurd values of Necromancy and Phoenix growth. It's way less when they butcher things like Slow, Logistics and Intelligence, that can get in the way of players being able to finish maps designed for their own mod.


On the other hand, when players have been talking over the years about spell/secondary skill balance, Logistics and Slow were often requested to be nerfed.

bloodsucker said:

One thing I agree with Phoenix is that the pre-requisites for upgrading the Magic Lantern are illogical when you consider how much easier it is to get Harpy Hags or Cerberi.



I agree that there probably isn't that much need for the Magic university requirement after the introducion of the 100 rounds per battle system. It's something they could re-think maybe.

I can totally understand that requirement thou. Unlike any other town, Conlflux can already split it's troops very effectively from the very beginning of the game (day 2). A hero with strong storm elementals + other troops and Luna leading an army of one-stacks. Basically mixing the Sprites to the picture as well could lead into a situation of Conflux being able to do battles in 3 different fronts without any real loses before any kind of troop chaining.

bloodsucker said:

It could even be ok if the restrictions only applied to human players but to force AI to fight with pixies for a long time is problematic.


Sprites aren't actually very ideal troop for AI, as it isn't coded to utilize the speed + no retalition anywhere near the player is able to. Tankiness is rather a stat AI wants from it early game troops, as it will place it's units in a range of enemy attacks. It would be a different story if Sprites could reach the other side of the field on turn 1 to strike enemy shooters, but unfortunately they can't.

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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Legendary Hero
posted May 01, 2020 12:52 PM
Edited by bloodsucker at 12:58, 01 May 2020.

Hourglass said:
A hero with strong storm elementals + other troops and Luna leading an army of one-stacks... Sprites aren't actually very ideal troop for AI, as it isn't coded to utilize the speed + no retalition anywhere near the player is able to.

Problem is AI doesn't have any idea of how to use Luna effectively either and those two are things I don't see how could they "teach" it to do it.
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foerno
foerno


Adventuring Hero
posted May 01, 2020 06:41 PM
Edited by foerno at 18:42, 01 May 2020.

bloodsucker said:

It was when they nerfed the absurd values of Necromancy and Phoenix growth. It's way less when they butcher things like Slow, Logistics and Intelligence, that can get in the way of players being able to finish maps designed for their own mod.



you know what, if in order to finish your map you need to rely on exactly one solution and some mechanics change could break it, then it's not a good map. good maps offer players multiple (infinite) choices and don't force them down a preconceived path. after all, this is a strategy game, not a puzzle.

hota team knows exactly what they're doing and their changes have been incredibly useful to the online community.

* expert slow used to be completely OP and sometimes getting earth on your hero vs not getting could be the difference between winning or losing a game. it's still incredibly powerful, but the balance was much needed.

* on larger maps, having a logistics specialist, or having a pair of boots, could give one player an immense advantage, allowing them to steal their opponent's towns while the opponent was unable to reach them. now with the decreased values, things are much more balanced. boots of speed used to be considered a relic artefact by pro players. now it's probably only a major artefact.

* intelligence change was also great. mages were simply too strong and having the option of doubling their mana points meant few people would chose a might hero as main on larger maps. now mages are still preferred but much easier to counter.

in short, few PVP players complain about changes that hota made, save for a minority of controversial ones (such as the new churchyard). it simply makes the game more balanced, giving players the chance to play a fair game, where skill will decide who wins. as for single player folks, i don't see how any of the hota changes could make your game experience worse, unless you're playing crappy "maps" which force a specific and only solution to complete it. in which case, try playing other maps, there is no shortage of good ones online.

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foerno
foerno


Adventuring Hero
posted May 01, 2020 06:49 PM

Hourglass said:

I agree that there probably isn't that much need for the Magic university requirement after the introducion of the 100 rounds per battle system. It's something they could re-think maybe.


i disagree. conflux is already considered a top 3 town on most templates and people pay good starting money to the opponent to be able to play it. there's no need to make it any stronger by lifting this restriction. sprites are totally OP for a level 1 unit and if you want them, you should be prepared to pay the price.

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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Legendary Hero
posted May 01, 2020 08:58 PM
Edited by bloodsucker at 21:32, 01 May 2020.

foerno said:
you know what, if in order to finish your map you need to rely on exactly one solution and some mechanics change could break it, then it's not a good map. good maps offer players multiple (infinite) choices and don't force them down a preconceived path. after all, this is a strategy game, not a puzzle.

Yeah! Because if two or three years ago someone decided to make a map using Elleshar (Maygwan, "Conquest of Heaven...") as main and trusting his specialty to win some hard battles or using Dessa and trusting his to reach some key points in a short amount of time, the map is a puzzle that forces you down a preconceived path.
Good argument.

foerno said:
few PVP players complain about changes that hota made, save for a minority of controversial ones (such as the new churchyard).

And this just proves how biased you are. They changed the churchyards cause some unusually cleaver guy found a way to abuse them, everybody copied it and now there are even tutorials on-line explaining how to do it. That's not a controversial change, it's a way to avoid a well known exploit (they said it themselves when they trade the WD for Zombies, even before changing their placement).
 
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Rhino
Rhino

Tavern Dweller
posted May 02, 2020 01:21 AM

I think it's a mistake that Factory is partly inspired by old westerns and not by Star Trek series, which had huge impact on both Jon van Caneghem and New World Computing (even the company logo is from the Star Trek, as you can see on the pictures below). All Science Fiction and advanced technology elements in Might and Magic games were inspired by Star Trek, and there were never any references to westerns or wild west in all 9 Might and Magic games and all 4 Heroes games made by NWC, not even single one. So in my opinion Factory is a mistake and it's not suit to this series.







And bonus:


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Gandalf196
Gandalf196


Known Hero
posted May 02, 2020 02:06 AM

Rhino said:
I think it's a mistake that Factory is partly inspired by old westerns and not by Star Trek series, which had huge impact on both Jon van Caneghem and New World Computing (even the company logo is from the Star Trek, as you can see on the pictures below). All Science Fiction and advanced technology elements in Might and Magic games were inspired by Star Trek, and there were never any references to westerns or wild west in all 9 Might and Magic games and all 4 Heroes games made by NWC, not even single one. So in my opinion Factory is a mistake and it's not suit to this series.




The first part is certainly not true while the second is probably true.
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LordInsane
LordInsane


Adventuring Hero
posted May 02, 2020 03:12 AM

If nothing else, Star Trek was highly inspired by westerns (to the point of the original pitch outright describing it as "Wagon Train to the stars"), so by extension there's a western tie there.

To tell the truth, I think Vernian steampunk filtered through the Wild West works as a 'barbarian' attempt at moving towards Ancient technology with native resources, which seems to be part of what the Factory is. The Ancients have a strong slant of Star Trek, yes, but these are not the Ancients or their androids we're talking about here, even Kastore's knowledge is limited and his access to Ancient technology even more so given the Forge project failed.

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Hourglass
Hourglass


Famous Hero
posted May 02, 2020 01:40 PM
Edited by Hourglass at 13:41, 02 May 2020.

Rhino said:
I think it's a mistake that Factory is partly inspired by old westerns and not by Star Trek series, which had huge impact on both Jon van Caneghem and New World Computing (even the company logo is from the Star Trek, as you can see on the pictures below). All Science Fiction and advanced technology elements in Might and Magic games were inspired by Star Trek, and there were never any references to westerns or wild west in all 9 Might and Magic games and all 4 Heroes games made by NWC, not even single one. So in my opinion Factory is a mistake and it's not suit to this series.


Hello and welcome to the forums.

If you're wondering about the design choices of Factory, I suggest you to take a look at this interview. It's already over year old, but I think it covers a lot of their philosophy behind Factory.

I bet Star Trek played a role back in the day, when world of Might&Magic was created. However, while there was a lot of scifi stuff in those M&M games, they never really tranfered to the Heroes of Might and Magic series. There were basically no signs of scifi in the first 2 games, and I bet you know how things went when they tried to introduce that kind of stuff to the Homm3 in the early 2000's.
To some extend, it could be argued that events from that time still haunt this community to this day, and it affects the decision making. Basically, I'm saying that there are still a lot of people that wouldn't want to see scifi in Homm3, so I think Hota didn't want to make Forge in it's "full glory", and instead of went with the steampunk style, which was also considered back in the day by original developers.

IMO that old western style goes nicely hand-to-hand with the steampunk and the rough wasteland terrain, but it's of course a matter of preference.

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Lord_Immortal
Lord_Immortal


Famous Hero
posted May 03, 2020 12:22 PM

Rhino might be a big Star Trek fan but understand that it would completely destroy the game having advanced robots & lasers vs other factions with swords, arrows and spears. Even in the M&M RPGs you fought sci-fi monsters only after you got blasters.

The steampunk theme is a much better choice than the original Forge. You could point out many design flaws in the Factory, such as the Gunslingers being too big or that I don't see how in the world Pikemen or Crusaders can take on the new Juggernauts (Maybe one of the early concepts that featured a Cyclops with tech equipment would fit better). Still, this version of the Factory is much better and not as absurd as the old Forge.

If it were on me, I'd design the Forge/Factory based on Da Vinci's sketches and maybe Rise of Legends game (which has an entire faction inspired from Da Vinci). Probably I'd "remake" the former Tank (with a gun wielding naga) to an oblong (2 hex) version of this.

However despite some of my critics, the Factory is without any doubt something I'm eagerly waiting to play in Heroes III.

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Sagez
Sagez

Tavern Dweller
posted May 03, 2020 03:13 PM

Why so many people have problems with technology in HoMM? I guess that all factions are developing in this imaginary world (slower or faster) and progress is natural.

Conquistadores were like gods/aliens to Indians, had superior technology, it just ccan happen that some countries have better technology. Who know if real aliens won't conquer us, humans, one day?

So it is totally logical that Enroth may be conquered by some aliens with laser and blasters, would it ruin the game? I don't think so, I dislike Conflux but I live with it
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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Supreme Hero
Making map for HotA then WoG
posted May 03, 2020 03:15 PM
Edited by FirePaladin at 15:16, 03 May 2020.

I agree with you.

P.S. The elementals in Conflux are aliens hired by the Ancients to kill the Kreegans, btw.
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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted May 03, 2020 04:09 PM
Edited by Galaad at 16:16, 03 May 2020.

Well, Kreegans are aliens in the first place, and Angels are robots. So, welp.

Hourglass said:
There were basically no signs of scifi in the first 2 games


Key word here being "basically"


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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Supreme Hero
Making map for HotA then WoG
posted May 03, 2020 04:44 PM

Medieval sci-fi! New kind of genre! Laser shooting cyclops and lightning throwing big boys!
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LordInsane
LordInsane


Adventuring Hero
posted May 03, 2020 05:33 PM

Lord_Immortal said:
Rhino might be a big Star Trek fan but understand that it would completely destroy the game having advanced robots & lasers vs other factions with swords, arrows and spears. Even in the M&M RPGs you fought sci-fi monsters only after you got blasters.


Not entirely true. Getting access to blasters in 6 was one of the last quests. Before then you'd already gone up against devils (one of the council quests to get access to the Oracle sent you against the Devil's Outpost), Guardians of VARN (there's a sidequest with a malfunctioning Guardian over in an lower-level area, and the quest to get access to the Control Center - where the blasters are - sends you to the Tomb of VARN - where, of course, quite a few Guardians of VARN abound) and Patrol/Enforcer/Terminator Units (found in the Tomb of VARN and the Control Center). I would need to check as I am not as personally familiar, but I am fairly sure that the earlier non-Enroth games were even more inclined to throw open sci-fi monsters at you without giving you sci-fi weaponry in turn.

What you can't have is a faction with the full logistical support for an entire sci-fi army. The Kreegan operate on limited resources and are out of contact with the interstellar swarm, the Forge was going to be an awkward hodgepodge reliant on a single functioning Heavenly Forge, if we posit an Egyptian-themed 'Guardian/Tomb of VARN' faction they would be limited to a subset of Ancient technology and magical artifice and be susceptible to being overwhelmed by superior numbers.

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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Supreme Hero
Making map for HotA then WoG
posted May 03, 2020 05:41 PM
Edited by FirePaladin at 17:54, 03 May 2020.

I'm pretty sure the forge was going to be dependent on resources A LOT, but you're mostly right. And earlier MMs did throw a lot of sci-fi enemies too. And remember, the Forge armies weren't gonna be big at all, but strongest tier vs tier troops, with low growth and insane prices.
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LordInsane
LordInsane


Adventuring Hero
posted May 03, 2020 05:58 PM

FirePaladin said:
I'm pretty sure the forge was going to be dependent on resources A LOT, but you're mostly right. And earlier MMs did throw a lot of sci-fi enemies too. And remember, the Forge armies weren't gonna be big at all, but strongest tier vs tier troops, with low growth and insane prices.

Reliant on the Heavenly Forge for their most advanced technologies lore-wise, I meant. The low growth and insane prices seems like they were meant to represent it in gameplay.

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Lord_Immortal
Lord_Immortal


Famous Hero
posted May 03, 2020 06:01 PM

@LordInsane

See, Kreegans are organic creatures and I always imagined the Guardians of VARN as organic too. Furthermore, none of the two uses blasters. As far as Patrol/Enforcer/Terminator Units are concerned I neither remember correctly where to meet them in M&M 6.

However when we pass to Heroes of Might and Magic III the question becomes very complex. See, Inferno is supposed to be a Kreegan town but the architecture is different plus none of the units is actually Kreegan. Also, when it comes to Angels/Archangels, nothing is said in the lore.

In Heroes III, creatures are supposed to represent what they are, Demons & Devils are not only Kreegans but also the beings of hell in "Conquest of the Underworld". The same towns also represent Greek mythology in "Myth and Legend". While the H3 campaign tells a story set in Erathia, the game itself is made to be able to tell ANY story one can imagine.

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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Supreme Hero
Making map for HotA then WoG
posted May 03, 2020 06:17 PM
Edited by FirePaladin at 18:27, 03 May 2020.

Tbh, there are mentions that Kreegans=Demons, but more advanced technologically. Also, in H3 they could hsave already adapted to the planet of Enroth. May I add that the Kreegans (the creatures, not civilization) "suck" energy from the conquered worlds/planets, a thing that fits the demons. There's also the problem of the Kreegans losing their technology when they crashed on Enroth; imagine that many of them probably died, and since they're so unorganized, they probably lost/broke their blasters, if they had any, and their ship was done and abandoned. Just like with crashing a plane; what much technology to recover?

Technologically advanced creatures/robots don't necessarily use blasters, but energy weapons, etc.

But you're right with any story thing.

However, as reliant on the H. Forge they were, the high prices and such were surely also because the technology and the production itself wasn't cheap.
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seiran
seiran

Tavern Dweller
posted May 04, 2020 01:39 PM

I'm not sure why a lot of these units are controversial here. No one bats an eye at titans throwing lightning bolts, but gunslingers with relatively primitive firearms are unrealistic/out of place? Historically knights were already using firearms in combat 4-500 years ago, and no one would say that Crusaders are out of place in HoMM. As for the Juggernauts, they're just bigger, fancier golems.
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