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Heroes Community > Heroes 3.5 - WoG and Beyond > Thread: [Official Thread] HoMM 3: Horn of the Abyss - Announcements, Questions, Features
Thread: [Official Thread] HoMM 3: Horn of the Abyss - Announcements, Questions, Features This Super Thread is 548 pages long: 1 ... 47 48 49 50 51 ... 70 140 210 280 350 420 490 548 · «PREV / NEXT»
Hobbit
Hobbit


Supreme Hero
posted February 25, 2014 04:34 PM

Salamandre said:
In random, veteran players already banned necromancy and DD and is not any nerf which will convince them to play with.

I don't know, HotA is actually one of few mods which, as I noticed, does appear on tournaments, even though it changes a lot of mechanics. It's just different challenge than standard SoD.
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Orzie
Orzie


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted February 25, 2014 04:37 PM

Well, you know, there are approximately 10% of veteran players or even less, and others still play in casual style. HotA must be treated as the gameplay modification - starting with the accumulating creatures in dwellings. It will have its own gameplay builds, not similar to anything used in WoG, TE or classic H3, there is no opportunity to find many common things.

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valgaav
valgaav


Adventuring Hero
posted February 25, 2014 04:48 PM
Edited by valgaav at 16:54, 25 Feb 2014.

@Salamandre
In the same way you can argue that game bugs should not be fixed as some maps depend on them. Ai should also not be improved, because some maps depend on its flaws etc.

Heck I bet even an introduction of new town and heroes can break some maps (which HotA does).


And actually SoD could break many RoE maps too . Introduction of combined arts is enough change to do so ...



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Orzie
Orzie


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted February 25, 2014 05:03 PM
Edited by Orzie at 17:10, 25 Feb 2014.

valgaav said:
@Salamandre
In the same way you can argue that game bugs should not be fixed as some maps depend on them. Ai should also not be improved, because some maps depend on its flaws etc.

Heck I bet even an introduction of new town and heroes can break some maps (which HotA does).


And actually SoD could break many RoE maps too . Introduction of combined arts is enough change to do so ...



In some way I agree that they should not be fixed, because custom scenarios often depend on that.

As for the SoD and RoE comparison - you forget one important detail. The map format. It is predefined in map properties, and it is an identifier for the game to not to use SoD assets, objects and such if its RoE map. So that there is no conflict with SoD and RoE, if the author intend the map to be RoE. SoD won't affect it if you don't change the map format in map editor.

When you launch maps which are marked as WoG, it's different. Many WoG-based maps have the same format, but they are totally different because they are intended to be played with different mods active.

I start dreaming about the different map format for The Succession Wars Mod... to make people stop loading improper (classic H3) maps with the mod active and whine about bugs all the time. Fortunately, we are able to change the map basic directory to prevent that for our next release.

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Sav
Sav


Known Hero
posted February 25, 2014 05:05 PM

Quote:
Sorta SoD compared to RoE: SoD did not restricted spells or other mechanics, thus was compatible with RoE previous productions.

If you play RoE map in SoD - combo-artifacts (including Cloak of the Undead King) can appear at the place of any relic artifacts (in Dragon Utopias etc).

Quote:
In random, veteran players already banned necromancy and DD and is not any nerf which will convince them to play with.

In russian online community DD is allowed but only to be casted once by every hero per day (2 with exp. air on XL+U templates). Necro and flux are allowed but there are some restrictions when playing with them.


I don`t like when SoD maps become unplayable with HotA, but we want HotA to be played online without many additional rules and it require gameplay changes so incompatibility with some maps is inevitable.
I think, the best solution is to disable all HotA features (except interface and some bugfixes) and keep original gameplay for non-HotA-format-maps, like it is done in SoD for RoE and AB campaings. But I haven`t seen many complaints about SoD maps in HotA so far, so maybe most maps are playable and this problem isn`t critical just now.

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Orzie
Orzie


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted February 25, 2014 05:08 PM

Quote:
I think, the best solution is to disable all HotA features (except interface and some bugfixes) and keep original gameplay for non-HotA-format-maps, like it is done in SoD for RoE and AB campaings. But I haven`t seen many complaints about SoD maps in HotA so far, so maybe most maps are playable and this problem isn`t critical just now.


That's what I said. If Hota won't affect the maps with RoE or other classic H3 markers at all with any innovations, it will be more consistent, probably. People who would want to play the map with the new gameplay settings could probably manually change the map format in the editor.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted February 25, 2014 05:13 PM

A common set of rules could be added to HD mod, so HoTA does not need to work on. HD mod could propose to limit DD to x casts, remove necro heroes and towns, limit town portal if any and so on.

Note that I have no clue how HD mod could overwrite the executable in such cases, just that it would make more sense to have all changes handled by HD mod.
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Era II mods and utilities

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Orzie
Orzie


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted February 25, 2014 05:15 PM
Edited by Orzie at 17:15, 25 Feb 2014.

I suppose it's not the prerogative of the HD Mod, because it does not pretend to change the gameplay in any way (and this is one of the reasons it's so commonly used).

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rubanani
rubanani


Hired Hero
posted February 25, 2014 08:23 PM

@Salamandre

Try to consider HoTA as a new expansion. It doesnīt matter if maps arenīt compatible because everyone can still play them with the expansion/addon it is made for. And when someone wants to make a new map.. they can choose to make it for HoTA, or SOD, RoE etc.  

The enormous pile of maps already made wonīt be affected by any changes in HoTA because the mapmakers didnīt made them for HoTA anyway. You will need to launch the normal SOD or heroes complete version of course..

The only thing that is changing is that maybe some people don't want to play HoTA (random maps or whatever) because they don't like the changes. That would be sad if they do however like the other features (new town and everything).
But I think it will be a small number of people. Most people think DD is heavily overpowered anyway. Two casts a day seems fine to me. I understand the great feeling of winning with DD, but your opponent is probably angry because it is kind of gamebreaking.

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Macron1
Macron1


Supreme Hero
posted February 25, 2014 08:53 PM

rubanani said:
That would be sad if they do however like the other features (new town and everything).



And VCMI will decide their problem - user can play Cove without forcing to choose heretic changes in game balance/mechanics HOTA made.

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rubanani
rubanani


Hired Hero
posted February 25, 2014 11:23 PM

Macron1 said:
rubanani said:
That would be sad if they do however like the other features (new town and everything).



And VCMI will decide their problem - user can play Cove without forcing to choose heretic changes in game balance/mechanics HOTA made.


That is even better. Only winners: most HoTA fans will like the changes and those who don't like it can rely on VCMI. Great for all HoTA fans, great for VCMI.

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valgaav
valgaav


Adventuring Hero
posted February 25, 2014 11:34 PM
Edited by valgaav at 23:48, 25 Feb 2014.

Orzie said:

As for the SoD and RoE comparison - you forget one important detail. The map format. It is predefined in map properties, and it is an identifier for the game to not to use SoD assets, objects and such if its RoE map. So that there is no conflict with SoD and RoE, if the author intend the map to be RoE. SoD won't affect it if you don't change the map format in map editor.


That's very false.  If you play RoE map in SoD you:
1)will be able to combine arts
2)will get combo arts as random relicts on map , utopia etc.
3) In RoE elementals were neutral but conflux form AB changed it which can break any RoE map which was done with elemental dwells, units joining etc.

Point two actually brakes all the maps that have utopias random relicts placed on them. Which IMHO is one heck of a lot maps. It is a way worse breakage then what HoTA changes may do to most of standard h3 maps. The truth is that most of the maps will not be influenced in a big way.

Orzie said:
Quote:
I think, the best solution is to disable all HotA features (except interface and some bugfixes) and keep original gameplay for non-HotA-format-maps, like it is done in SoD for RoE and AB campaings. But I haven`t seen many complaints about SoD maps in HotA so far, so maybe most maps are playable and this problem isn`t critical just now.


That's what I said. If Hota won't affect the maps with RoE or other classic H3 markers at all with any innovations, it will be more consistent, probably. People who would want to play the map with the new gameplay settings could probably manually change the map format in the editor.

If that's the solution all new arts and Cove should be disabled too.... but then you get standard SoD anyway so I don't see a reason why those standard maps could not be just played in normal SoD. I'm sure there are maps which will be broken with cove and new heroes inclusion. Heck I made such map myself years ago (with limited hero access in tavern) that probably would be broken by inclusion of new Cove heroes in a small way...
_________________________________


But I don't think there is a point to go with this talk further. Maps issue was brought from DD limitation talk, and from what I can see it is not about a breakage to few maps (maps you could just play with normal SoD if you want or maps that could just be updated for HoTA) or any other stuff. It's all about that people who brought it don't like to see DD changed. They like it how it is and will come with most ridiculous stuff just to prove how it should stay the way it is. Just play SoD then...


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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted February 25, 2014 11:43 PM

valgaav said:
It is a way worse breakage then what HoTA changes may do to most of standard h3 maps.


Well, this also is a ridiculous argument, as you like to name them. In SoD editor you can prohibit any artifact or combo once the RoE map is converted (one click).

While in HoTA, once DD and necromancy are nerfed, you can only scrape your "you know what".

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valgaav
valgaav


Adventuring Hero
posted February 26, 2014 12:08 AM

Salamandre said:

Well, this also is a ridiculous argument, as you like to name them. In SoD editor you can prohibit any artifact or combo once the RoE map is converted (one click).


Such conversion should not be needed . Combo arts showing up as relicts on RoE is one of the biggest bugs/mistakes 3do left in the game.

One click converts maps and in SoD combo arts are set to not appear on map.... true but still how many h3 players never open up mapeditor ?

The second part is wrong though as  you have no way of turning of the assembly of arts. So if a map was for example done in a RPG style with an elf hero that starts with 3 archery arts he will assemble a powerful art out of them. Map difficulty changes and what was set to be a challenge is not a challenge anymore.  Fixing such RoE maps is not a one click.

Quote:

While in HoTA, once DD and necromancy are nerfed, you can only scrape your "you know what".

You can fix those as easy and with one click. Just play SoD instead if you don't like it so much.

Anyway you have your opinion I have mine. I care for balance you do not. No point in trying to convince the other person, because we will just always disagree. So lets just agree to disagree and end it at that.

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rubanani
rubanani


Hired Hero
posted February 26, 2014 12:39 AM

And now for something completely different.. I am in the proces of making a nice HoTA map, but I want to change the growth rate of some creatures in a castle. Is that possible without ERM (I don't want to wogify)?

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted February 26, 2014 12:44 AM

You cant wogify a HotA map anyway.

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rubanani
rubanani


Hired Hero
posted February 26, 2014 12:55 AM

But can I change creature growth in a castle in map editor (or using some tools in addition)?

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted February 26, 2014 01:06 AM

Town, events, give name, AI/human, set to repeat every 7 days, then creatures column, give.

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rubanani
rubanani


Hired Hero
posted February 26, 2014 01:46 AM

Haha, I wasn't specific enough. Sadly enough, I want to lower the amount of creatures available each week.

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Storm-Giant
Storm-Giant


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
posted February 26, 2014 10:16 AM

Unless you disable citadel/castle...
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