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SkeleTony
Hired Hero
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posted July 12, 2014 04:32 PM |
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malax83 said:
SkeleTony said:
Also there is no need to remove 'double attacks'. Crusaders are not exactly a powerful unit and usually get killed quite quickly and easily in my experience.
I make tests and yes, it feels i miss something.
There are very very good level 4 units anyway (if u consider the rest of humans units...). Probably, with vampire lords (a bit broken) the best level 4 units.
50 crusaders against 50 greater basiliks:
crusader wins, remains 19 crusaders.
How often did the Greater Basilisk's special trigger? Just curious, though I do not think that Greater Basilisks are considered to be more than garrisoned defensive units anyway and not units you really want to go attacking opponents with.
Quote:
50 crusaders against 74 horned demons: (no way with the same amount...)
horned demons wins, remains 36 horned demons
I am surpised the Horned Demons could win even if they had twice as many as the Crusaders but I have never been a fan of them so I probably don't know how to best use them.
Quote:
50 crusaders against 50 ogre mages:
crusaders wins, remains 2 crusaders
Did the Ogre Mages cast bloodlust? Who got to swing first in the exchange? And again, Ogre Mages are another 'support unit' more so than an attack unit (at least for the first few rounds of a fight and after that they primarily guard the shooters).
Quote:
50 crusaders against 8 red dragon
red dragon wins, remains 2 red dragon
So yeah u re right, there s no need to balance this units. Their upgrades give to units +2 attack skill, as for elvens archers. This is quite nothing but not necessary to me(as u know elven archers are strong)
Elven Archers are not THAT strong guy. Also the double shot just kind of has to be their special (especially since Peter Jackson's LotR movie and Legolas) it seems to me. It fits them far better than the double attack fits the Crusaders for example.
My overall point though is that there are ways to fix any perceived balance issues that don't involve stripping units of the characteristics which make them identifiable. But I can see your points and truth to tell, now that I think about it I would be in favor of toning down or tweaking several units' abilities, though I still think this is a low priority matter.
EDIT: Forgot to ask: How did the Crusaders do against Vampire Lords? Ice Elementals (with enough distance between the two that they get a few shots off)? Those 'Stormbird' upgrades? Silver Pegasi?
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hippox89
Famous Hero
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posted July 12, 2014 09:20 PM |
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Edited by hippox89 at 10:06, 13 Jul 2014.
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Vampire lords is the only commonly banned creature in pro-games in SoD. If a unit isn't restricted at this point in pro-games then it probably isn't OP when it comes down to it, however, depending on how much collecting bank creatures is toned down in HotA, it might make them more useful in the core army strength, I suppose. Also, it's kinda hard to just directly compare the same level creature vs. the same level creature from another Castle. You have to judge the Castle as a whole, and there's quite a few factors involved. It's also hard because the first unit to attack will probably win, right? So it's a bigger math equation. Of course, the abilities doesn't make it easier, and creatures can be serve different roles better or worse than others, i.e, defender, fast attacker, shooter/melee, etc. Crusaders' double attack makes the game more fun/deeper, imo. If you can take the retaliate off for relatively free before attacking then their attack seems quite strong. Casual-games does have a very different overall dynamic, but that also means that it probably doesn't come down to balance in such games, anyhow.
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malax83
Famous Hero
Game ranger, HotA Player
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posted July 13, 2014 12:22 PM |
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Edited by malax83 at 12:23, 13 Jul 2014.
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SkeleTony said:
How often did the Greater Basilisk's special trigger? Just curious, though I do not think that Greater Basilisks are considered to be more than garrisoned defensive units anyway and not units you really want to go attacking opponents with.
After a few bunch of tests, basiliks are only able to win if they cast petrify during the first round.
Quote:
I am surpised the Horned Demons could win even..
I m surprised to..
Quote:
Did the Ogre Mages cast bloodlust?
No they didn t, but yeah, it really depends on who is attacking first, in this case, if crusaders was attacking first, it remains 12 crusaders, but ogres mages defend pretty well.
Quote:
But I can see your points and truth to tell, now that I think about it I would be in favor of toning down or tweaking several units' abilities, though I still think this is a low priority matter.
I m working on this morning ;D
I m make another bunch of tests to Naga queens, in order to discuss
First round is a fight between naga queen and black knight, the second round is against knight. the only difference is the thing "who is attack first" but it doesn t matter in that case
- 24 naga queen against 36 black knight, it remains 4 naga queen (3*times)
- 24 naga queen against 40 black knight, it remains about 16-18 black knight (3*times)
- 24 naga queen against 30 knight, it remains 9 naga queen (3*times)
- 24 naga queen against 36 knight, it remains about 16-18 knight (3*times)
Instead the color of the "dada" will make a difference, it looks like, to me, there is a problem of continuity with the amount of opponent (not getting bigger as hell...)
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SkeleTony
Hired Hero
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posted July 13, 2014 04:00 PM |
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hippox89 said:
Vampire lords is the only commonly banned creature in pro-games in SoD. If a unit isn't restricted at this point in pro-games then it probably isn't OP when it comes down to it, however, depending on how much collecting bank creatures is toned down in HotA, it might make them more useful in the core army strength, I suppose. Also, it's kinda hard to just directly compare the same level creature vs. the same level creature from another Castle. You have to judge the Castle as a whole, and there's quite a few factors involved. It's also hard because the first unit to attack will probably win, right? So it's a bigger math equation. Of course, the abilities doesn't make it easier, and creatures can be serve different roles better or worse than others, i.e, defender, fast attacker, shooter/melee, etc. Crusaders' double attack makes the game more fun/deeper, imo. If you can take the retaliate off for relatively free before attacking then their attack seems quite strong. Casual-games does have a very different overall dynamic, but that also means that it probably doesn't come down to balance in such games, anyhow.
This^!
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nik312
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted July 13, 2014 06:00 PM |
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Edited by nik312 at 18:00, 13 Jul 2014.
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A big "Thank you" goes to hippox again for answering the questions so accurately, that I don't even have to bother 
Also thx to Storm, Skeletony and all others who answer some questions to the point they know and don't get "Macronish" at the same time, trying, for example, to talk about things they know nothing about as absolute experts 
As somebody did ask for our closest future-plans, here is some revealing:
Next version will be 1.3.4 - our multiplayer expert convinced us to add 2 more things before going into professinal community. So, after we will add those and fix all the known bugs, hopefully, 1.3.4 will be the final version of 1.3.X branch and we will be able to turn our attention to something more global.
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted July 13, 2014 06:58 PM |
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nik312 said:
Next version will be 1.3.4 - our multiplayer expert convinced us to add 2 more things before going into professinal community. So, after we will add those and fix all the known bugs, hopefully, 1.3.4 will be the final version of 1.3.X branch and we will be able to turn our attention to something more global.
Nice
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malax83
Famous Hero
Game ranger, HotA Player
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posted July 14, 2014 10:48 AM |
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Edited by malax83 at 12:40, 14 Jul 2014.
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You push the work on heroes 3 with a nice direction so i would like to post my wish list as i ve done with big daddy during christmas.
I m not arguing on changes made by HotA cause there clever in all shapes.
My wish list in terms of priority concerns movement of heroes, as any strategy games should own.
1 - Restore heroes 4 movement
To avoid caravans heroes. To make decision movement strategy. Already done in Heroes 4 with success.
2 - Cost of surrending
"If you have enought money. You can get it".
Actually cost of surrending is "Unit cost gold * Number of Unit / 2"
In other terms, the price to surrender is equal to the real value cost gold of your army (indeed, you lost half of your gold ressources and your opponent earn the half).
This change complete the first one, which is about movement heroes on the map. Retreat with no units (..sick..) or surrender, what did you chose ?
"Unit cost gold * Number of Unit / 2" TO "Unit cost gold * Number of Unit * 3/8" (represents 75% instead of 100%)
3 - Movement ship
Heroes lose all his movement when is going by ship, it s not deserving to movement heroes, as my two list points. Put 50% heroes movement lost.
4 - Mass Spells Balance.
I m complaining AGAIN. +3 haste master school. 66% slow novice, expert and master school.
5 - Music when starting a fight.
An option to disable music.
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted July 14, 2014 12:28 PM |
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malax83 said:
5 - Music when starting a fight.
An option to disable music.
You can press ESC to stop it and go directly to combat though
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted July 14, 2014 06:31 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 18:32, 14 Jul 2014.
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malax83 said:
1 - Restore heroes 4 movement
To avoid caravans heroes. To make decision movement strategy. Already done in Heroes 4 with success.
For me "caravan heroes" is part of the fun..
Quote:
Retreat with no units (..sick..) or surrender, what did you chose ?
wut ?
Quote:
3 - Movement ship
Heroes lose all his movement when is going by ship, it s not deserving to movement heroes, as my two list points. Put 50% heroes movement lost.
Again, imo losing all movement points while boarding/landing is part of the fun (landing day 6 for instance).
Quote:
4 - Mass Spells Balance.
I m complaining AGAIN. +3 haste master school. 66% slow novice, expert and master school.
I always found it the best system that you need to be expert in some magic to cast it massively. And YES, lvl1-2 spells are powerful if you used a slot for magic competence. HotA's artifact Cape of Silence is a great addition to the game !
Quote:
5 - Music when starting a fight.
An option to disable music.
Again, wut ?
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hippox89
Famous Hero
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posted July 14, 2014 06:51 PM |
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Edited by hippox89 at 19:05, 14 Jul 2014.
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Galaad said:
Again, imo losing all movement points while boarding/landing is part of the fun (landing day 6 for instance).
I agree such can be fun, but the other half of the times, you'll be missing that one step of movement, and then it's not very fun any more.
Storm-Giant said:
nik312 said:
Next version will be 1.3.4 - our multiplayer expert convinced us to add 2 more things before going into professinal community. So, after we will add those and fix all the known bugs, hopefully, 1.3.4 will be the final version of 1.3.X branch and we will be able to turn our attention to something more global.
Nice
Indeed. 
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malax83
Famous Hero
Game ranger, HotA Player
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posted July 14, 2014 07:03 PM |
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Edited by malax83 at 19:11, 14 Jul 2014.
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Surrender is not an option, it s a big loss of gold. My percent is about :
retreat = 98%
surrender = 2%
2% cause i m afraid of confusing all.
Maybe 80% instead of previous "75% total gold cost of army" is ok..
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted July 14, 2014 07:05 PM |
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hippox89 said:
Galaad said:
Again, imo losing all movement points while boarding/landing is part of the fun (landing day 6 for instance).
I agree such can be fun, but the other half of the times, you'll be missing that one step of movement, and then it's not very fun any more.
You mean the half when you are in the castle ? ;-)
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hippox89
Famous Hero
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posted July 14, 2014 07:40 PM |
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Edited by hippox89 at 20:11, 14 Jul 2014.
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Galaad said:
You mean the half when you are in the castle ? ;-)
Oh, I didn't focus on that part in the brackets. Loosing all movement points does create a certain type of dynamics, but so would, say, loosing only a fixed amount without being nearly as punishing as when you're that one step short of boarding/landing.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted July 14, 2014 08:39 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 19:13, 15 Jul 2014.
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Quote:
loosing only a fixed amount without being nearly as punishing as when you're that one step short of boarding/landing.
Yes but you also don't loose any after boarding if you're not short a step.
The best I could cope with would be getting to keep one step of mvt after boarding/landing from some artifact or Expert Nav. ?
Anyway your suggestion changes too much original gameplay in my POV.
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malax83
Famous Hero
Game ranger, HotA Player
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posted July 14, 2014 08:44 PM |
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Edited by malax83 at 20:47, 14 Jul 2014.
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hippox89 said:
but so would, say, loosing only a fixed amount without being nearly as punishing as when you're that one step short of boarding/landing.
Why fix the amount ? .. I don t understand where is the problem, u need half of your amount to go by ship,
if you have less of half movement u pass the all night to load, then your movement on sea is equal to 0.
For example, an unknown hero has 16 movement. He s going by sea at the 12 movement points. It remains : 12 - (16/2) = 4, spending on movement sea.
I think it s common sense.
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kko
Hired Hero
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posted July 15, 2014 12:32 AM |
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re: mass spell balance
my $0.02: I love how this works, and most spells have counterspells anyway (haste/slow, bless/curse, mirth/sorrow).
I like the idea of Cape of Silence, even though I haven't had the chance to use it too much yet.
What I thought could be another neat addition is an artifact that works sort of like magic resistance but only for mass spells.
- x% chance to resist a negative mass spell cast by the enemy on my units (on a per-unit basis)
- x% chance to stop a positive mass spell cast by the enemy on her units (on a per-unit basis)
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted July 15, 2014 10:07 AM |
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Edited by Maurice at 10:07, 15 Jul 2014.
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I'm not sure if this is the best place to post about this bug, as it isn't very critical. This occured in v1.3.3 at least, don't know about previous versions.
In the second map of the second campaign (first map was with Bidley, second map with Jeremy and Catmetra (?)), there is a pink/purple portal in the southwest corner of the map, leading to an underground area in the southwest as well. Part of that underground area is sealed off due to a misplaced mapobject. I could see a Manticore Lair guarded by some Pit Fiends behind it, but it was unreachable.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted July 15, 2014 11:06 AM |
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Edited by Galaad at 11:06, 15 Jul 2014.
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Maurice said:
I'm not sure if this is the best place to post about this bug, as it isn't very critical.
here 
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hippox89
Famous Hero
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posted July 15, 2014 12:23 PM |
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Edited by hippox89 at 22:33, 15 Jul 2014.
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malax83 said:
For example, an unknown hero has 16 movement. He s going by sea at the 12 movement points. It remains : 12 - (16/2) = 4, spending on movement sea.
I think it s common sense.
Well, that'd work if movement was unified between land and sea, but a hero with a higher pool of movement points would still have to pay more movement points than a hero with a lesser pool.
It all depends on how the conversion (or lack of) between land movement and sea movement is handled.
Let's try some amateur hippox-maths just for fun. The point is to try and make it relevant how much LMP (land movement points) and SMP (sea movement points) that is left of the total of these two pools when a hero boards/debarks, and then try to make a sensible conversion between these factors.
I made two maths equations with hero-1 and hero-2.
Okay so, let's say that hero-1 has 1500 LMP and 1500 SMP (no navigation). Boarding costs 500 LMP. That's 1500 LMP - 500 LMP = 1000 LMP. Now we have three factors, 1000 LMP (which is a clean 2/3 of his full LMPs) and 1500 SMP. We multiply 1500 SMP by 2/3, and so we'd have 1000 SMP left to go by sea.
But what if hero-1 decides to debark the same day?
Well, hero-1 still has 1000 LMP (hidden) and 1000 SMP currently. Debarking also costs 500 SMP, so 1000 SMP - 500 SMP = 500 SMP. Now we have three factors again, 500 SMP (a factor of ~0.333 of his full SMP) and 1000 LMP. We multiply 1000 LMP by 0.333, and so we'd have ~333 LMP left.
Should hero-1 be allowed to board again with only 333 LMP left? I'd probably say 'no', but I'm not sure.
Let's try again with hero-2 who has expert navigation.
Okay so, hero-2 has 1500 LMP and 3750 SMP. Boarding costs 500 LMP. That's 1500 LMP - 500 LMP = 1000 LMP. Now we have three factors, 1000 LMP (which is a clean 2/3 of his full LMPs) and 3750 SMP. We multiply 3750 by 2/3, and so we'd have 2500 SMP left to go by sea.
But what if hero-2 also decides to debark the same day?
Hero-1 still has 1000 LMP (hidden) and 2500 SMP currently. Debarking costs 500 SMP, so 2500 SMP - 500 SMP = 2000 SMP. Now we have three factors yet again, 2000 SMP (a factor of ~0.533 of his full SMP) and 1000 LMP. We multiply 1000 LMP by 0.533, and so we'd have 533 LMP left.
Overall, it seems a 500 MP cost is actually a little too high to me, but that's adjustable, of course.
As I said this was just done for fun, but it does highlight some of the factors that could be involved in a non-unified approach, I think. I'm sure that's other (better) ways of during it, too, of course. If so, please share if you want.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted July 15, 2014 12:23 PM |
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Galaad said:
here
Thanks for the pointer . I assumed that it was for graphical issues though, but I may have been put on the wrong footing due to Hippox' contributions in that thread  . If so desired, I can put the map error there as well.
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