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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted July 27, 2014 03:58 PM |
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Warmonger said: Bad news for you, guys.
Not bad news =P
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hippox89
Famous Hero
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posted July 27, 2014 05:07 PM |
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Edited by hippox89 at 17:19, 27 Jul 2014.
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revolut1oN said: Hey guys, sorry but I have one total offtopic question about that Outlaw vs Firetosky game. Why did Fire turn on quick combat here at 5:43?
I dunno, but I know of another trick involving the AI. If you have tactics and you move your two hex creatures as far ahead as is possible and then turn the animation speed to 1 and then turn on auto combat then your two hex creatures will move one hex further than is manually possible by tactics otherwise. You need to turn off auto combat afterwards when whatever creatures you wanted to move futher has moved, of course. I haven't done it myself, but I think I watched Toganash do it in a SoD match. There might be a common rule concerning it in tournament play, but I dunno.
revolut1oN said: As for HoTa, I think the changes really enhanced the multiplayer so far, however I have a feeling that now there are too many banks which give creatures. I would kick out Fire Birds and Enchanters banks.
Why ban Enchanter dwellings? And what about Sharpshooter dwellings then? Maybe (but I'm not saying so) they should be guarded as you don't need to fight any of their kin in order to recruit them, but I don't actually know how pro players feel about these dwellings.
For fun I generated 3 8MMM6a, XL+U maps for both SoD and HotA and counted the results.
SoD results:
Count 1:
23 Griffin Conservatories
19 Dragon Fly Hives
Count 2:
14 Griffin Conservatories
33 Dragon Fly Hives
Count 3:
16 Griffin Conservatories
30 Dragon Fly Hives
An average of 45 creature banks
HotA 1.3.3 results:
Count1:
14 Griffin Conservatories
24 Dragon Fly Hives
21 Red Tower
Count2:
13 Griffin Conservatories
23 Dragon Fly Hives
14 Red Tower
count3:
12 Griffin Conservatories
32 Dragon Fly Hives
14 Red Tower
An average of ~55.7 creature banks
It does look like HotA currently generates a higher average of creature banks and not simple a more diverse generation, but please note that 3 samples per version is not enough to provide a clear image of the situation. Personally, I want to see more a more diverse generation (more than 3 creature banks), but I also don't want there to be too many of them present on the map.
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nik312
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted July 27, 2014 05:20 PM |
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Edited by nik312 at 17:25, 27 Jul 2014.
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revolut1oN said: Hey guys, sorry but I have one total offtopic question about that Outlaw vs Firetosky game. Why did Fire turn on quick combat here at 5:43?
Sorry for offtopic but I am really really curious but unfortunately I don't understand russian so I can't really find a reason to do that.
As for HoTa, I think the changes really enhanced the multiplayer so far, however I have a feeling that now there are too many banks which give creatures. I would kick out Fire Birds and Enchanters banks.
That's an old trick, that existed before HD+ became (with its replayable quick cmb) conventional. The point is not to loose archers but to loose rather a lot of melee troops. That's how AI was acting in quick combat those days. Can't say for sure if it acts the same nowadays as it was fixed in HD several times
Enchanters and Sea Serpent banks are not generated in RMG since 1.3.0
As for Firebirds... Everything is complicated 'bout those. There is a high probability, that they will be replaced on random maps by another cons in 1.3.4, but it is not certain yet.
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revolut1oN
Famous Hero
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posted July 27, 2014 05:23 PM |
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Hippox, you misunderstood me. I was talking not about Enchanters dwelling, but new HotA bank which gives them as a prize.
Edit: Thanks for your reply Nix! Another question. Are you planning any nerf to Sprites so that they are less overpowered in next versions?
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hippox89
Famous Hero
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posted July 27, 2014 05:26 PM |
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@revolut1oN
Ah, okay
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P4R4D0X0N
Famous Hero
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posted July 27, 2014 06:15 PM |
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I hope for 1.3.4 soon Atm I'm building a giant map (which take at least some time + balance), atm with tons of placeholders. Is it possible to extend the limitation of 8 players up to 12? Or is the limit hardcoded?
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Warmonger
Promising
Legendary Hero
fallen artist
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posted July 27, 2014 06:16 PM |
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Quote: It does look like HotA currently generates a higher average of creature banks and not simple a more diverse generation
This is how object generation works. Every object is threated equally and has some probability to spawn. If there are more object types, more of them spawn in total. However, since max number of space on the map is constant, individual types are less likely. Still, if more banks were added than other objects with similiar value, banks tend to dominate.
Keep in mind that values of mentioned banks are very different: 2K for Conservatory, 4K for red tower, 9K for Hive. So they occupy different zones on a map and do not exclude each other.
A solution would be to either reduce probability of individual banks or add a number of different objects of same value and proportional probability.
Quote: Is it possible to extend the limitation of 8 players up to 12? Or is the limit hardcoded?
The limit is actually limited by player color flags, interfaces, palettes, screen area and much more. It would take a LOT of effort to change that and so far no one proposed satisfactory solution.
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The future of Heroes 3 is here!
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted July 27, 2014 07:05 PM |
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nik312 said: As for Firebirds... Everything is complicated 'bout those. There is a high probability, that they will be replaced on random maps by another cons in 1.3.4, but it is not certain yet.
New conservatories?
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Lord_Immortal
Famous Hero
DoR Dev Team
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posted July 27, 2014 08:28 PM |
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Steyn said:
Hobbit said: No, they are NIXES - big water creatures, which had too many concepts to tell what it actually resembles.
Could you make more of these 'evolutions' of cove creatures? It is a really nice way to get a little bit insight in the creative process behind this great expansion.
There are some here in the Galeria - Modele, Szkice section
Btw, blue Nix is better than current. Its upgrade was crimson w. full armor. Why don't you release an alternate version patch for the Nyx appearence?
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baka
Tavern Dweller
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posted July 27, 2014 10:02 PM |
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as one of the "former" wog-crew i always tried to make good scripts that enchanted the game but not too much. when wog became too complex and too much options i lost interest.
one thing that i "tried" to create was a garrison/border gate that required specific "hero" conditions to let it pass, like "only hero above level X could pass" or "only hero level 1-5 could pass" or "creature amount less/above could pass" or other conditions. that would require the player to get the specific condition of each heroes and not just visit some tent.
another script that i created (but never finished) was a totally different approach of leveling. there are now a "set" of different path that the hero could choose, so he would not get random skills, instead he got random of the "set". so the "warrior" got warrior skills, a mage, more spell skills, etc. additionally each secondary skills got more levels. because of the limitation of skills, i needed to use the same skills but "renamed" them on-fly to give the right description (yes it was a lot of work)
i also made the primary skills not leveling up, so only artifacts boosted it. now, the secondary skills became very important, a warrior-path made melee attacks very strong in comparison of a "rogue or mage", but a mage now, his spells where much more useful.
of course, this would make the game very different, but i think it would be great with more complex paths of secondary skills.
another script was "pouch", used to store "mana-flask" or other potions that the hero could use. i also created a "picture" on the hero-screen where you could view the pouch.
well, that is all from me this time.
thx for the great work you are doing!
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hippox89
Famous Hero
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posted July 27, 2014 10:22 PM |
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Edited by hippox89 at 22:55, 27 Jul 2014.
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Warmonger said: This is how object generation works. Every object is threated equally and has some probability to spawn. If there are more object types, more of them spawn in total. However, since max number of space on the map is constant, individual types are less likely. Still, if more banks were added than other objects with similiar value, banks tend to dominate.
Keep in mind that values of mentioned banks are very different: 2K for Conservatory, 4K for red tower, 9K for Hive. So they occupy different zones on a map and do not exclude each other.
A solution would be to either reduce probability of individual banks or add a number of different objects of same value and proportional probability.
I see, thanks for the insight. But when you say 'Every object is treated equally and has some probability to spawn.'', are you then talking about the density values the zones? If not, what exactly is this 'probability' factor when every object else is treated equally by the generator.
Also, is it possible for the game to limit an object per zone and not the whole map? I have never seen two Churches in the same zone, but maybe it's possible. And what factor makes the Church spawn so rarely in general? If it was just a matter of there being a lot of objects with similar values then they'd all be just as rare. Has this got something to do about this 'probability' factor, perhaps?
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nik312
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted July 28, 2014 12:00 AM |
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Edited by nik312 at 00:01, 28 Jul 2014.
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Lord_Immortal said:
Steyn said:
Hobbit said: No, they are NIXES - big water creatures, which had too many concepts to tell what it actually resembles.
Could you make more of these 'evolutions' of cove creatures? It is a really nice way to get a little bit insight in the creative process behind this great expansion.
There are some here in the Galeria - Modele, Szkice section
Btw, blue Nix is better than current. Its upgrade was crimson w. full armor. Why don't you release an alternate version patch for the Nyx appearence?
That is one of the reasons why we don't publish those creature evolutions and old works overall. Most people w/o specific education see everything "new" as something better than existing (especially in graphics). That's really irritating for any artist who processed a huge work before final model was considered good enough.
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hippox89
Famous Hero
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posted July 28, 2014 12:31 AM |
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Edited by hippox89 at 02:09, 28 Jul 2014.
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The current Nix defs is clearly the work of a superior quality standard, though. Sure you might like the idea of another colour better or something like that. I personally think it's really cool seeing such evolutions, and it makes you appreciate the effort put into ending up with the finished product. I clearly understand what Nik says about the other side of it, too, though.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted July 28, 2014 01:22 AM |
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Clearly, final Nix is the best !!!
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Lord_Immortal
Famous Hero
DoR Dev Team
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posted July 28, 2014 11:13 AM |
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nik312 said:
That is one of the reasons why we don't publish those creature evolutions and old works overall. Most people w/o specific education see everything "new" as something better than existing (especially in graphics). That's really irritating for any artist who processed a huge work before final model was considered good enough.
I have a certain familiarity with modding, so I'm not a "Most people w/o specific education". It isn't that I see the blue nyx as new and like it more. The thing is, the final green Nyx is serpentine green that upgrades to some sort of teal both swampish-like colors. Plus he's very thin & lightly armored (with copper) for level 6.
The blue nyx has less swamp snake/lizard features and more sea snake/shark/sea monster features. Plus his blue color (and the crimson of his upgrade) together with the gold of his armor fit better to the sea theme. Not to mention that the blue Nyx is very imposing in stature, exactly what one would expect for level 6.
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Macron1
Supreme Hero
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posted July 28, 2014 11:18 AM |
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Edited by Macron1 at 11:20, 28 Jul 2014.
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I also think that beta version Nixes are more good.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted July 28, 2014 02:06 PM |
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nik312 said: That's really irritating for any artist who processed a huge work before final model was considered good enough.
This.
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Steyn
Supreme Hero
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posted July 28, 2014 02:29 PM |
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nik312 said:
That is one of the reasons why we don't publish those creature evolutions and old works overall. Most people w/o specific education see everything "new" as something better than existing (especially in graphics). That's really irritating for any artist who processed a huge work before final model was considered good enough.
That's a shame, but I understand your point. However, I can also understand those whining people a bit. At some point your work is already really good and the differences you make will be mostly based on personal taste/vision. As HotA is your creation, you have all the rights to decide which version should be in. And if the previous version was better, wouldn't there be a larger group of people asking for its return?
BTW, I thought I saw another version of the Nix that wasn't in that row. Am I right that there was a green 'hunchbacked' version in between the blue one and the final version? The screen shots I saw even gave me the impression of a possible third upgrade...
Anyway, I still would love to see some evolutions, like the pirates and the haspids, but I understand if you don't want to.
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted July 28, 2014 02:32 PM |
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Lord_Immortal said: I have a certain familiarity with modding, so I'm not a "Most people w/o specific education".
So much familiarity that you ask HotA team to release a minor patch to change some graphics when HotA team is well known to release only one version of their work...yeah right.
I completely understand nik. While people can have different opinions, this kind of requests are like an insult to all the efforts HotA crew has put into this MOD.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted July 28, 2014 02:40 PM |
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Storm-Giant said:
I completely understand nik. While people can have different opinions, this kind of requests are like an insult to all the efforts HotA crew has put into this MOD.
Exactly
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