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Aron
Known Hero
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posted April 07, 2014 07:34 PM |
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Edited by Aron at 19:40, 07 Apr 2014.
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The big problem in Ukraine is the underlying structure of corruption, usurpation of state wealth and ineffective industries that no longer benefit from a central plan that they were designed for. It's a mess.
Unless some of the oligarchs that are pro-west are willing to donate portions of their wealth then something will have to break. I read it's at the point where military recruits have to pay for their own food.
I honestly think that Ukraine people need massive reforms, closing of their borders and they need to understand that they messed up really badly. Young people in Kiev don't get this. They have it "OK". People in the country side or in the industrial cities have nothing. Mass austerity and the community engaging in mass work projects like in the US/USSR/Nazi Germany during the 30's. Creating programs for each other like communal theathre, communal cinema, infrastructure works, etc. But modern luxuries will have to go. People who earn alot will have to share. (Taxes in the US during the depression went up to 95% for the richest people. Yes, friends, taxes in the US during Roosevelt-Eisenhower were 95% of the richest peoples income, in Nazi Germany companies were told to provide resources for almost free and in the USSR people just had their stuff stolen and then starved...).
If you guys don't do this you'll be used as a pawn in a geopolitical scheme for the next 100 years. But sitting around is impossible. Closing everything down is impossible. "Saving money" is impossible. Industry and services need to be restarted. Ukraine doesn't have the GDP to feed its people and provide modern luxuries today. That's the reality. Pick one or pick the other.
I would create state loans funded by taxation on great wealth and even through inflation to be given to small businesses in growth sectors and to farmers. Services and goods that can then be exported to the EU. I would lower taxation massively on Ukrainian businesses and increase it massively on high incomes, dividents and financial transactions. Forcing funds to stay in the economy and be re-invested.
Dunno those are my two ideas.
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kipshasz
Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
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posted April 07, 2014 10:07 PM |
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well, I think that the main reason those regions rebelled after Crimea is because the price of gas had doubled and the bandit goverment wishes to take a loan from Russia so they'll pay off the gas bill, also because the senior pension have been cut in half. How to live on in these conditions? basically everyone is snowed, not only the seniors. The bills for gas and heating will be unbearable the next season.
In the EU Lithuania pays the most for gas to Gazprom. And it's not because of the market. It's because our politicians bash Russia for every little problem out retards encounter.
Now every meat producer whines because Russia doesn't want to import our meats, and that is the least of the businessmen problems. Back in the Soviet era, the best from the food industry was exported to Russia. not a single snowing thing has changed since then.
GG politicians, GG. contine if you wish to screw up entire countries completely.
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"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
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Aron
Known Hero
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posted April 07, 2014 10:54 PM |
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Well that's what happens when you try to shake of your leash while having bills to pay. Besides, they are all about accountability. That's the only way they can get even more loans from the IMF 
Obv declaring bancrupcy should be the way forward. It's the IMFs/EUs/Russias fault taht they tried to rail in a suffering country using debt bondage. But that would shake investor trust and all of that.
And yup, they can't survive. I wonder if that oligarch that was put in charge of Donetsk ever got there. Dude got appointed like 3 days after the new gov took power. Kinda funny, removing old oligarchs for new. I'm sure he has some money to pay for gas.
In Dnipetrovisk or how ever the city is spelled I think the guy who owns the major steel plant there got to be mayor xD It's so corrupt they are not even trying to hide it anymore.
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted April 07, 2014 11:27 PM |
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You guys say absolutely correct things, and the vast majority of average Ukrainians understands this, but who will do these things? Who will increase taxes for rich? Our political elite is so tightly entwined with oligarchs, so I just can't believe any of the parties in current parliament can lead this process. Intelligent fair people here try to find new leaders, but no luck as of now, we keep making the same mistakes for 23 years. The system breaks those who try to break the system. They all have to be controlled, always and everywhere. I think that's the ultimate lesson we learned from Maidan, and I hope that is the way out of this circle, the time for refresh.
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Aron
Known Hero
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posted April 07, 2014 11:32 PM |
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Well you guys survived maniacs like Beria/Stalin så you'll survive this too. Dictatorships are easy ^.^
Either it's a good dictator or a bad dictator.
Democracies are hard. Nobody knows who runs who or for what New game now, lol. And you cant easily attack the system because the system tells you "Well you voted for them" and taunts you back.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted April 08, 2014 08:26 AM |
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Well, Putin was ready to give 14 billion greens to Ukraine under pretty good conditions. Now the EU, the IMF and the US promise to give less than that, for a longer time period, under worse conditions. In both cases the party that gives the money expects loyalty and obedience, only that the Russians will not even try to hide that while the Westerners will claim that they have Ukraine's best interests at heart and no, they don't want to mess with its internal politics. My country's been there already. In the end, you have to choose what you prefer - blunt overlords or eloquent liars.
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BrennusWhiskey
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
The quickest H4 player
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posted April 08, 2014 08:37 AM |
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Zenofex said:
Well, Putin was ready to give 14 billion greens to Ukraine under pretty good conditions.
You have to learn something: nothing is for free, especially in global politics.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted April 08, 2014 08:38 AM |
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And you have to learn to read.
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BrennusWhiskey
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
The quickest H4 player
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posted April 08, 2014 08:43 AM |
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Zenofex said:
And you have to learn to read.
You wrote give? Mb you have to learn how to write in a meaningful way?
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kipshasz
Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
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posted April 08, 2014 09:02 AM |
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Edited by kipshasz at 09:06, 08 Apr 2014.
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Zenofex said:
And you have to learn to read.
that's far beyond his ability actually.
I think the maps should be soon redone and east Ukraine should be marked as "Russian Federation" from now on, if their bandit goverment continues their bullcrap.
Ihor: Is this what you and your fellow protesters been freezing your arse off for? I thought you guys wanted change to the good side. And cutting down on pensions increased commodity prices don't seem to me as a good change. was it worth it?
Surely living under yanukovych's "regime" isn't such a bad thing now, is it?
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"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
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BrennusWhiskey
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
The quickest H4 player
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posted April 08, 2014 09:37 AM |
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kipshasz said:
Zenofex said:
And you have to learn to read.
that's far beyond his ability actually.
I think the maps should be soon redone and east Ukraine should be marked as "Russian Federation" from now on, if their bandit goverment continues their bullcrap.
Ihor: Is this what you and your fellow protesters been freezing your arse off for? I thought you guys wanted change to the good side. And cutting down on pensions increased commodity prices don't seem to me as a good change. was it worth it?
Surely living under yanukovych's "regime" isn't such a bad thing now, is it?
Insulting is your specialty?
Tell us more your fascist opinions.
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GunFred
Supreme Hero
Sexy Manticore
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posted April 08, 2014 10:01 AM |
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Don't give the long tentacles of the CoC a reason to close this thread as well...
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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted April 08, 2014 02:29 PM |
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Edited by Orzie at 14:30, 08 Apr 2014.
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BrennusWhiskey, I beg you gently to read Zenofex's post carefully. A thread like this should live a little longer.
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Baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted April 08, 2014 03:35 PM |
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The only way for all this bickering and dickering to have a point would be if Brennus got banned and his post count divided between Kip and Orzie.
Ihor could also get a few and then promptly delete them all.
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted April 08, 2014 04:11 PM |
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BrennusWhiskey said:
Zenofex said:
And you have to learn to read.
You wrote give? Mb you have to learn how to write in a meaningful way?
He writes:
Quote:
In both cases the party that gives the money expects loyalty and obedience, only
Not an obscure insinuation, a very plain statement, now, isn't it?
And you reply:
Quote:
You have to learn something: nothing is for free, especially in global politics.
Maybe, you wanted to sound cool and wise, but really, listening is the part that makes you wise.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 08, 2014 04:17 PM |
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How does the EU expect loyalty and obedience from Ukraine in ways that are secret?
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Aron
Known Hero
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posted April 08, 2014 04:32 PM |
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Edited by Aron at 16:38, 08 Apr 2014.
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Kiph I think living under that old fart was bad. It's just that this is worse. That doesn't mean that things couldn't have been better.
None of this that has happened in the past matters.
All that matters now is that eggs have been thrown. I repeat eggs have been thrown.
Altho I don't have any information on who is throwing and why.
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BrennusWhiskey
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
The quickest H4 player
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posted April 08, 2014 05:21 PM |
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Baklava said:
The only way for all this bickering and dickering to have a point would be if Brennus got banned and his post count divided between Kip and Orzie.
Ihor could also get a few and then promptly delete them all.
I prefer substancial discussion than trolling and collecting stars. If it's a reason for ban go ahead 
Do you have some substancial remarks?
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seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted April 08, 2014 05:32 PM |
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 08, 2014 06:46 PM |
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You shouldn't read RT. It's controlled by the Kreml.
Ukraine needs the EU so that it can realistically embark on reforms that will reduce its state and corporatist corruption, protect its sovereignty from the Russian destabilization efforts that we already have seen so much of aswell as connecting their economy with the 500 million people EU internal market.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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This thread is pages long: 
