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GunFred
Supreme Hero
Sexy Manticore
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posted March 09, 2014 10:45 AM |
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Zenofex said:
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Thanks to the "Bear", USA never got a chance to use the crisis there as an excuse to get rid of some weapons.
Except maybe the suspicion that the US actually does supply weapons to the rebels. Maybe not chemical weapons but conventional? Not unlikely at all.
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A good thing that comes out of this Crimea thing for my nation is that now the debate is alive about the swedish military defense. Everyone here knows how Russia could just steamroll the swedish military in a surprise invasion. But the politicians have felt too safe since the end of the cold war and with cooperative Nato nations nearby so they have slowly decreased the size and readiness of the military since the end of the cold war. Now that they know that the only potential threat is actually capable of invading other countries, no doubt there is going to be pressure to increase fundings and size of the military and hopefully it even becomes a big thing for this year's election. Being a pacifist nation that has not been in any actual war for 200 years is nice and all but if you want to keep your neutrality AND security, you have to have a respectable military.
It looks like Putin's manoeuvres have actually resulted in some Cold War-style paranoia in the west then. You are probably aware that no kind if military preparations can prevent Russia from steamrolling Sweden if it wanted to, the gap between what they have and what you have is... huge, to say the least. However, you may not be a NATO member but Norway is, as are all countries south of you - i.e. it's quite foolish to think that the Russians will suddenly decide to make a steamrolling exercise on your territory (Sweden of all countries? What the hell for?). Then again, at least some of the top-ranking people in Poland seem to think that Ivan may come for their heads again so it's not only you.
Was it not proven that Saudi Arabia(US allies) provided weapons, perhaps even chemical ones to some rebels? 
Of course there is going to be cold war paranoia in the west and rightfully so when Russia half-invades a nation in europe. Russia has practiced to invade Sweden to be prepared for the "unforseeable future" so we should do the same in return. Especially now that the "unforseeable future" seems slightly more likely after Crimea. And we swedes value our neutrality highly so officially joining NATO with the risk of being dragged into a war we want nothing to do with is unlikely. I hope we keep cooperating with NATO nations for goodwill and improving the currently declining army as we can't guarantee NATO's help in return for that neutrality of ours. Personally I would have loved a tight defensive military alliance with our nordic neighbours but I think there was a proposition somwhat like that recently but the norwegians refused unless we joined NATO...
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veco
Legendary Hero
who am I?
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posted March 09, 2014 10:46 AM |
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pooland? what is this, 3rd grade?
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none of my business.
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kipshasz
Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
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posted March 09, 2014 10:49 AM |
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no, actually it's 2nd grade.
you can thank your degenerates who fled to the west for that.
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"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
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veco
Legendary Hero
who am I?
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posted March 09, 2014 10:51 AM |
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reasonable as ever, I see
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none of my business.
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GunFred
Supreme Hero
Sexy Manticore
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posted March 09, 2014 11:04 AM |
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artu said:
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As amusing as it was watching the americans fall to their own words and looking like fools, now there is a horrible civil war that affects thousands upon thousands of innocent civilians and the greater of all the involved evils is sure to win. An american intervention may have been for the best (except for the dictator's allies such as Russia).
And since when is El Kaide militants who chop war prisoners' heads off while chanting a prayer is a better alternative for anything? They are worse actually, because they can turn on anyone who differs even slightly from them ideologically and that would be every one.
"the greater of all the involved evils"
I did say this and that a Russian intervention against might be better than the current situation.
JoonasTo said:
GunFred said:
about the swedish military defense.
Teh what? 
Oh you... 
You guys are like, 70% of our defense against Russia. Sweden has a historical weakness against Russia while Finland has a historical resistance against Russia. If not for blasted Russia, Sweden could have been the northern superpower it was destined to be... 
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veco
Legendary Hero
who am I?
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posted March 09, 2014 11:07 AM |
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Silly GunFred, you don't get to be a pacifist and a superpower
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none of my business.
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GunFred
Supreme Hero
Sexy Manticore
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posted March 09, 2014 11:14 AM |
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veco said:
Silly GunFred, you don't get to be a pacifist and a superpower
Very true but I just find the idea of what Europe and the world be like VERY facinating in an alternative history. Just imagine if christianity never got a hold on Scandinavia OR if the Swedish Empire took control around the baltic sea and perhaps replaced the USSR in history. But you are of course right and I am pretty relieved to be born here as I only need to truly worry about my happiness...
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted March 09, 2014 12:22 PM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 12:23, 09 Mar 2014.
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JoonasTo
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted March 09, 2014 12:37 PM |
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Yeah, Russia means the land of the Swedes, they don't like to be reminded of that too much though.
You know what's funny, Sweden actually thought it was a superpower, then they had the great idea of census and we all know what happened after that
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DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.
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GunFred
Supreme Hero
Sexy Manticore
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posted March 09, 2014 02:20 PM |
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Zenofex said:
Worry not, you are indirectly a superpower.
JoonasTo said:
Yeah, Russia means the land of the Swedes, they don't like to be reminded of that too much though.
Surely it was viking blood that made Europe successful (they were the explorers/colonials of their time) but if I say anything more I may quickly turn into a neo-nazi...
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted March 09, 2014 02:38 PM |
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Edited by artu at 14:39, 09 Mar 2014.
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GunFred said:
artu said:
Quote:
As amusing as it was watching the americans fall to their own words and looking like fools, now there is a horrible civil war that affects thousands upon thousands of innocent civilians and the greater of all the involved evils is sure to win. An american intervention may have been for the best (except for the dictator's allies such as Russia).
And since when is El Kaide militants who chop war prisoners' heads off while chanting a prayer is a better alternative for anything? They are worse actually, because they can turn on anyone who differs even slightly from them ideologically and that would be every one.
"the greater of all the involved evils"
I did say this and that a Russian intervention against might be better than the current situation.
By your context, that indicates Beser Esad not El Kaide, he is the one who remains in power without the intervention.
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GunFred
Supreme Hero
Sexy Manticore
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posted March 09, 2014 03:13 PM |
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artu said:
GunFred said:
"the greater of all the involved evils"
I did say this and that a Russian intervention against the rebels might be better than the current situation.
By your context, that indicates Beser Esad not El Kaide, he is the one who remains in power without the intervention.
I forgot to add the blue part I noticed now. I do not know of those names if it matters anymore after my correction...
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 14, 2014 12:25 AM |
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kipshasz
Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
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posted March 14, 2014 08:57 AM |
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and then suddenly... a second Chernobyl!
world leaders need to gather around, and play a round of polish roulette before something like this happens.
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"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted March 14, 2014 01:06 PM |
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It's interesting to read thoughts of some who sit hundreds kilometers away from here, heard something on news and make some conclusions, pretending that to be universal truth. Here are some points:
1) Protesters on the street of Kyiv in February are not bandits, everybody has right to defend their rights.
2) Russia did occupy Crimea. The estimate is 19000 soldiers in Crimea, which is far more than allowed by bilateral treaties. Also Russian soldiers removed their military tokens, which is forbidden by international law.
3) All Russian statements about reasons of their actions in Ukraine are based on lies: there was no oppression of Russians in Ukraine, no burning of Russian churches, no threats to Russian military bases, no threats to Russian language.
4) Indeed the majority in Crimea are Russians, but there are about 12% of Crimean Tatars and 24% of Ukrainians, and their rights have to be respected as well. On the other hand it is dangerous even to wear blue-yellow strips in Crimea as separatists are very aggressive.
5) Russia doesn't want to deescalate the conflict. OSCE observers were not allowed on Crimea territory. Many acts of violence against journalists (including international) reported. Russians even don't want to talk to Ukraine's government.
I cannot answer why Russia acts like this, maybe it's imperialistic nature of Putin. He is famous for saying that USSR break up is the biggest catastrophe of XX century. Maybe he wants to earn some points among his population by another short and winning war. Obviously Ukraine alone won't be able to stand against Russian army. And West countries are also in very nasty situation. If they don't help Ukraine, what should they say to Iran or North Korea about their nuclear programs. They won't have moral right to restrict other countries as the whole world's security system, that exists now will be destroyed and every country who have enough resources will try to develop its own nuclear weapons. This might lead to a catastrophe in the future. On the other hand Russia is not Iraq and is not Serbia and West countries have economic ties with Russia. So it is difficult to predict what will be next. But it looks like diplomacy step is over, everybody's waiting for referendum on Sunday and Russia's reaction.
Each side has to respect international law.
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kipshasz
Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
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posted March 14, 2014 01:38 PM |
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it doesn't matter that Ukraine is in rule of a Putin Putler puppet or a yank puppet, the regular ukrainian is raped in every hole possible anyway. same in all the ex Soviet countries, except maybe Estonia, which forbade anyone with commie party membership to be in office afaik.
Did I heard right that Ukraine wants a huge loan from that international fund crap? and in exchange for that cash they have to do things like increase the age of retirement, privatise all the mines etc. what's up with that?
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"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted March 14, 2014 01:51 PM |
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Quote:
it doesn't matter that Ukraine is in rule of a Putin Putler puppet or a yank puppet, the regular ukrainian is raped in every hole possible anyway. same in all the ex Soviet countries, except maybe Estonia, which forbade anyone with commie party membership to be in office afaik.
Yeah, partly that is true. Ukrainian market is new to Europe and 45 million of people who want to buy European goods can be very good benefit for EU. But it is Europe's interest to have Ukrainian people rich to be able to buy their expensive technology products. While Russia's economy is based on gas and Russians are not interested in Ukraine's wealth. The other major thing here is that Ukraine currently is highly corrupted country. It is considered to be poor, but that is not actually true. It is not poor, but robbed. EU can help as fight this corruption and trading with EU has good perspective. We believe that integration to EU can bring more positive, than negative things.
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Did I heard right that Ukraine wants a huge loan from that international fund crap? and in exchange for that cash they have to do things like increase the age of retirement, privatise all the mines etc. what's up with that?
It was not signed yet. The negotiations are being made. The truth is Ukraine desperately needs money to avoid default. Russia obviously canceled their 15 billion deal that was signed with previous Yanukovich's government, and now Ukraine tries to find it from EU, US and IMF. I don't know what conditions will be proposed by IMF, but obviously we will have to sacrifice something.
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kipshasz
Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
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posted March 14, 2014 02:10 PM |
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not untill you get rid of every basterd in the Rada, because otherwise it'll be the same as here, for something as simple as a kids playground at a public park will require millions from the EU which will be put in the ruling body's pockets.
Surely you remember what that huge faker and thief tymoshenko did. so yea. what needs is huge change, not ex boxers and retards you have to put up there now. mark my words, after a few years this whole crap will repeat itself again.
And yes, you do need money, I heard they finally payed back Russia for the gas. 88 mil, was it?
but basically the terms for a loan from TMF or whatev will put Ukraine into an eternal debt and decline of business, more than this whole protest thing did.
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"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted March 14, 2014 02:30 PM |
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not untill you get rid of every basterd in the Rada, because otherwise it'll be the same as here, for something as simple as a kids playground at a public park will require millions from the EU which will be put in the ruling body's pockets.
Surely you remember what that huge faker and thief tymoshenko did. so yea. what needs is huge change, not ex boxers and retards you have to put up there now. mark my words, after a few years this whole crap will repeat itself again.
That makes sense. We do understand that those who came to power now are not much better - at least I hope they won't command to kill hundreds of people on the streets. But there are actually some positive changes. I can name several ministers in our government that are pretty good. They are not from old oligarch camp - new professionals supported by majority of people. And they understand that reforms are necessary. In addition to this, it looks like after events of last 3 months, something changed in our way of thinking. Half a year ago every time traffic cop stops you, you understand he wants a bribe, now people force them to do their job responsibly. A lot of different civic organizations were established which take aim to control the new government. BTW it was officially announced about creation of new structure like anti-corruption bureau and lustration committee. If this works fine, then we will have more options to control the government.
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And yes, you do need money, I heard they finally payed back Russia for the gas. 88 mil, was it?
As I heard Ukraine paid some part yesterday, but the gas debt to Russia is still about 1.4 bil 
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OhforfSake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted March 14, 2014 02:45 PM |
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Ihor! You're alive  (I hope)
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This thread is pages long: 
