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Aron
Known Hero
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posted April 11, 2014 03:16 PM |
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Ye I know. You gotta have something to offer them to get in.
Maybe we can be chocolate tasters  ?
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Aron
Known Hero
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posted April 11, 2014 03:22 PM |
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Edited by Aron at 15:22, 11 Apr 2014.
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Also there was 1 polar bear in Iceland years ago.
He swam from the North Pole.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1024243/First-polar-bear-swim-Iceland-15-years-shot-dead-police-sightseers.html
But it's probably a scouting force.
Main Pole invasion force come later 
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted April 11, 2014 05:07 PM |
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Edited by Corribus at 08:41, 12 Apr 2014.
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I have reopened the thread after cleaning out the continued inflammatory, off-topic conversation that happened AFTER I handed penalties out. Please do not make me close this thread again.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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kipshasz
Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
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posted April 12, 2014 09:06 AM |
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backto topic, here's an interesting aritcle I found. I wouldn't take this you know, for the whole truth, but who the hell knows how it truly is.
Ihor, I respect you and you know, your choices and all, but the bubble will burst, and I guarantee you'll sing a different tune once the junta starts to fulfill the demands of IMF. the loan from there is the worst possible option.
And loaning money to pay off other debts is never a smart idea. Even I know that, and by society's standarts I'm a dumb good for nothing highschool dropout.
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"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted April 12, 2014 10:09 AM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 10:14, 12 Apr 2014.
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ihor said:
Ok, we agree that separatism is not a good thing. But you think that we have such situation because of some bad decisions made by interim government. What decisions? It is only for 1.5 months in power and its main objective is to prepare country to the elections.
My strong understanding is all this snow is heated by Russia. Doesn't matter what the interim government did at all! The key factor that Yanukovych is ousted and this pushes Russia to seek for a revenge, so all russian and pro-russian organizations here heat the situation up.
So you can either support ousting of Yanukovych or not. It is a proven fact that he is a criminal and everybody agrees with that here. That's why I support. Afterwards what bad decisions did the interim government make, that could bring the protests on east? In my opinion, nothing that bad up by now.
ihor, from what I know your interim government happens to have a xenophobic, radical right party in charge (or at least with strong influence) of key power positions in the government, including the prosecution which is supposed to investigate the Maidan shootings and the internal ministry which is supposed to "handle" the protests in the east. Correct me if I'm wrong. You think that this is no reason for the Russian-speakers to worry about anything, OK, but I can tell you that I'd be pretty worried if I was in their shoes. Even if there are no direct violent oppressions, I'd have no reason to expect anything fair in the upcoming elections. That alone is a damn good reason for protests, even if it doesn't really justify separatism. We already discussed the bad start of the interim government with the languages law on the other hand, that's nothing insignificant and just adds up to the rest.
Yes, Russia is quite likely to fuel the issues in the east, that's entirely in its interest. But think of it like that - would it have any chance to do so if the people there were convinced that nothing bad will happen? I'm not sure if the things are really as serene as you see them. Granted, I'm not there, I have only second-hand information but in general no manipulation would ever succeed if it is totally detached from reality.
Additionally, the polar stance "you're with X or you're against X" is the easiest way to fall into someone's trap. If everyone agrees that Yanukovych is a criminal who deserved to be ousted and the interim government hasn't done anything bad so far, why do they protest in the east from the beginning of March? You can put part of the blame on Russia but will be pretty naive to claim that it's entirely its doing. Maybe it is not simply "I'm with or against Yanukovych" and there are other, more complex motivations at play. Usually that's how it is with everything.
And by the way, the IMF loans are a time bomb just like the federalization. I'm not expecting you to believe me now but if you go for it, you'll certainly feel the ricochet after some time. Forget about independent economy or social politics, in a few years you'll hear the official propaganda explaining you day and night how normal it is to be poor for just 15-20 more years, after which the rivers of milk and honey will start flowing. Trust me, been there.
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BrennusWhiskey
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
The quickest H4 player
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posted April 12, 2014 11:27 AM |
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Its nice to hear what people not living in UKR teaches them how to live.
Very nice, but its not part of your country have been consumed. There are small countries which would be the next.
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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted April 12, 2014 11:48 AM |
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Edited by Orzie at 11:53, 12 Apr 2014.
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Crimea was a subsidized region anyways. Mostly it's the Ukrainian people self esteem which was damaged in the whole process. There are much more important problems for them I suppose.
And yes, I think you man should be exiled from 'this fascist site' right now and forever for your constant trolling. There are many more places for the troll to feed. Leave us alone.
This is the time I start thinking Macron was a really nice guy.
Zenofex said:
Additionally, the polar stance "you're with X or you're against X" is the easiest way to fall into someone's trap. If everyone agrees that Yanukovych is a criminal who deserved to be ousted and the interim government hasn't done anything bad so far, why do they protest in the east from the beginning of March? You can put part of the blame on Russia but will be pretty naive to claim that it's entirely its doing. Maybe it is not simply "I'm with or against Yanukovych" and there are other, more complex motivations at play. Usually that's how it is with everything.
Yes, unfortunately now it's common everywhere. If you say that you support Maidan, people can say 'ah, one more of them' and will not listen to you anymore. And vice versa. I have already stumbled upon such kind of attitude.
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted April 12, 2014 04:04 PM |
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@Kip
I never said that I blindly support the new government, I even mentioned that I am not going to vote for ones who has power now. The idea I try to carry is that we should judge by actions. We have nothing that bad as of now, your predictions might be true, we'll see, but that's just your predictions. And you have better idea than loans from IMF? We need money ASAP, what should we do?
@Zenofex
I'll repeat, they protest not because the interim government did something wrong, no. They are heated by Russia, some of them believe Russian propaganda about "fascist government" and other similar stuff. Most of them do not treat themself as Ukrainians, more like Soviets or Russians.
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kipshasz
Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
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posted April 12, 2014 04:08 PM |
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Edited by kipshasz at 16:14, 12 Apr 2014.
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one idea: arrest Tymoshenko's bank accounts
anotehr one: arrest all of the Rada's bank accounts.
third one: sell off yanukovych's crap in an acution like there's no tommorow. unless, all this perverted luxury is just a propaganda trick by the bandit leaders. which may be or may not be.
there. three snowing great ideas! Tymoshenko's bank accounts are full of money stolen from you, Ukrainians. they should've done that when they put that swindling b1tch in the slammer, and use that money to pay off the debts.
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"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted April 12, 2014 04:22 PM |
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Who will want to live in Yanukovych house? It costs now maybe 10% of the original value. Also 100 million dollars won't save us now. If Yanukovych already moved his assets abroad, then it is difficult to return.
As for bank accounts of Tymoshenko and MPs. That is not real. We pretend to be a lawful state (lol), so all this can be done only after directive of court, it must be proved that money are stolen. And we need them ASAP 
@Zenofex
To add to my previous post, Svoboda does control prosecution, but not interior ministry.
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kipshasz
Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
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posted April 12, 2014 04:29 PM |
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for how long she's been faking that she's dying in the can?
that was the time to act. not with retards taking over, using your dreams of a bright tommorow.
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"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted April 12, 2014 07:17 PM |
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Not sure what you mean.
She was faking her illness, yes, that's probably true. But that doesn't bring money  .
The government hadn't much time, so they started talking to EU, US and IMF about the money. I wouldn't throw stones into them because of this.
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seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted April 12, 2014 07:32 PM |
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ihor said:
Not sure what you mean.
She was faking her illness, yes, that's probably true. But that doesn't bring money .
The government hadn't much time, so they started talking to EU, US and IMF about the money. I wouldn't throw stones into them because of this.
It seems that poverty is indeed the mother of all problems.
There is a saying "Beggars cant be choosers", this holds true for slaves aswell.
So choose your masters, IMF loans or russian loans...
I hear from media that russian loans had better conditions, was that true, or was that just the front cover, while the back cover was about losing sovereignty.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted April 12, 2014 07:36 PM |
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ihor said:
I'll repeat, they protest not because the interim government did something wrong, no. They are heated by Russia, some of them believe Russian propaganda about "fascist government" and other similar stuff. Most of them do not treat themself as Ukrainians, more like Soviets or Russians.
....
To add to my previous post, Svoboda does control prosecution, but not interior ministry.
OK then, what is this guy doing on top of the national security council? It's not the ministry of interior, my mistake, but it's still a high position related to the internal affairs. Among other things, he seems to be quite friendly with the Right Sector guys. You're certainly not making Putin's job harder by keeping such people in key positions.
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seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted April 12, 2014 07:44 PM |
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I dont know whats the fuss about svoboda. They seem to be rightwing extremists... and?
In europe you have rightwing extremists winning left and right and in the EP. Then you have Putin, whose actions are self explanatory.
Besides, they want to ban...jews? Really? They must be living in the 1940s to stil believe that jews, at least the jews in their country, are controling everything. Really...
Fascist or not, in 20 years, I bet that europe will turn into a fascist heaven anyway.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted April 12, 2014 07:48 PM |
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The fuss is about Putin using this as a formal excuse for 99% of his actions since the beginning of the crisis.
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seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted April 12, 2014 07:55 PM |
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Edited by seraphim at 19:58, 12 Apr 2014.
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Zenofex said:
The fuss is about Putin using this as a formal excuse for 99% of his actions since the beginning of the crisis.
And thats an argument against Putin's actions? Really, he could have used any argument to justify its actions.
NGOs, extremist tatars, foreign nazis and so on. You are not dealing here with somebody who cares about popular support to justify his actions.
He also has access and knowledge about the two of the worlds most powerful intelligence agencies, FSB and GRU. He could have justified his actions with agents.
Besides, it seems that putins words about svoboda are true, so again, whats the deal? When the elections in urkaine happen, and svoboda loses, then it will be interesting.
I can guarantee you that putin will find other reasons to justify crimea.
Besides, he justified crimea by using US actions and the historical importance of Russia to it, not just svoboda.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted April 12, 2014 08:22 PM |
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You're mixing the real goal behind the whole thing and the propaganda. The goal is keep NATO out of Ukraine or at least key places in Ukraine and to undermine the Western influence in the long run. The propaganda part aims at providing socially acceptable reason for socially unacceptable actions. "We're taking Crimea to make sure that there won't be NATO bases there in a few years" is not a socially acceptable reason. "We are coming to protect our kinsmen against xenophobic oppressors" is. The masses fall for such theatros all the time. You can be certain that there would have been much stronger social response - including in Russia itself - if Putin just ordered his troops to capture territory X without any propaganda to cover the real interests pursued by this.
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kipshasz
Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
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posted April 12, 2014 09:46 PM |
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Edited by kipshasz at 22:16, 12 Apr 2014.
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@Ihor: I meant that while she was in the old slammer, they could have frozen all her bank accounts and property, run a court session in which they determine if all that was earned with stolen money, then confiscate the money and use it to patch up the holes in the bugdet, all the debts included.
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"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted April 12, 2014 10:11 PM |
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@Zenofex
What is wrong with that guy (Parubiy)? He is not from Svoboda, he was member of parliament from Tymoshenko's party (now resigned in favor of work in security council) and he is close to Right Sector just because he was a coordinator of self-defense. They coordinated their actions with Right Sector.
@Kip
I already mentioned, you just can't take somebody's money without court's decision.
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This thread is pages long: 
