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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted March 01, 2014 09:00 PM |
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mvassilev said:
artu said:
Dude, for the hunderth time, democracy isn't majority can vote out minority about every fundamental right.
That's what democracy is. To the extent that rights aren't up for vote, it's not a democracy. But that aside, even if some fundamental rights aren't up for vote, voters can still elect incompetent, populist, or otherwise bad politicians who pursue bad policies, such as if they vote on whom they'd like to have a beer with (see George W. Bush), if they're misled into feeling threatened, if they simply have false beliefs about the effects of policies, etc.
No, it's not and they teach that even in Sociology 101! Blunt logic (Democracy=vote, so if vote has less power, it's less democracy) won't let you solve everything and you really should stop being so overconfident in it. Democracies evolved from Ancient to Representitive to Liberal. Of course, politicians can be populist but their power is not limitless, it is controlled by the separation of powers. And yes, there are walk-arounds and there are greedy people who want to control everything but this is the system that puts the best checks and balances in the long run, not the other way around.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 01, 2014 09:17 PM |
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Democracy is majority rule. That's what it is. If you dislike majority rule or think it can go too far, fine, but then you have a problem with democracy. A liberal democracy is still a democracy, of course, but it's less democratic than an absolute tyranny by majority.
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Eccentric Opinion
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted March 01, 2014 09:22 PM |
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So, basically you repeat the same "Tomato is real, tomato is red, reality is red" pattern. Your stubborn head is thick as a brick sometimes.
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 01, 2014 09:24 PM |
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Edited by Fauch at 21:28, 01 Mar 2014.
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democray = power to the people
election = giving power to one man, taking it from the people
actually the problem may not be with election, but power. democracy also used to be about designing servants, not masters.
xerox said:
then why do you have a socialist president who implemented crazy high taxes on the rich?
it's not because we have some thousands people in favour of athenian democracy that it will magically happen. also a lot of people are not in favour of it or simply know nothing about it.
also, who is that guy you talk about? we do not have such a president. what we have is an ultra liberal, who instrumentalizes religions to divide people over pointless debates, while he signs anything that major companies and USA present to him.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 01, 2014 09:25 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 21:31, 01 Mar 2014.
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Doesn't demcracy just mean there is some kind of majority rule?
Like I've studied Iran's political system recently and with that definition, it is a democracy. Obviously, it's not the representative and liberal democracies people in the West are used to. But it annoys me when people assume that democracy equals liberal democracy. There are many types of democracies and Iran has one of them.
edit: hollande an ultra liberal LOL
a corporatist with a socialist rhetoric maybe (judging by your description of him)
as a leading social democrat here said: "The key is socialist rhetoric on right-wing policy."
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted March 01, 2014 09:27 PM |
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Edited by kayna at 21:29, 01 Mar 2014.
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artu said:
I'm so fed up with this "oh, democracy's so bad, democracy's just a show, it's all the same game" crap. Reminds me of a spoiled brat who keeps trying to accuse his parents for the luxury he's in. There are still enough theocracies/dictatorships/totalitarian regimes in this world of ours, I dont see any of you guys packing your bags and getting ready to leave. On the contrary, some of you are complaining about the immigrants who are running away to get into democracies. Yes, democracy is not perfect and yes, in every country there is a level of politics that is beyond the public's reach. That level of politics is not government politics but state politics, it's usually built upon decades and it specializes in international affairs. But come on! Is there one person here who will object to the fact that life quality really IS better in first world countries which somehow all happen to be democracies? So unless you are a sheikh or some oligarch, shut up about how awful democracy is because it is the best humanity could come up with as of now and I dont see any alternative that doesnt correspond to fairy land from you guys.
What you say is true. Yet, it is again that "look how worse it is in your neighbor's land, so shut your mouth" argument, which gets in the way of reaching perfection.
Try the experiment yourself. Every time you meet someone that whines, speak of the starving Africans. Every time someone whines about a mistake you did, say that you are an artist. It explains most of the crap on earth. ( lol. ) I hope we will not have to face such arguments as long as there will be other forms of governments than democracy on planet Earth, because otherwise, we will hear it for centuries ...
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted March 01, 2014 09:33 PM |
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Not exactly. I have no problem about people criticizing the system. I'm objecting to their choice of argument which is: Democracy is not preferable.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 01, 2014 09:39 PM |
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Yeah, but the discussion is more like "How much democracy?" rather than "democracy or not".
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted March 01, 2014 09:43 PM |
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Mainframe is, you're right. But I wasn't strictly talking about this thread. It's a common approach all the time in the OSM
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kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted March 01, 2014 09:44 PM |
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Haha. Allright. I'm more of a "it always depends" kind of guy.
Personally I think it has a lot to do with fear. Citizens often fear their leaders where as leaders don't fear their citizens as much. The world would be a much better place if we had a few high ranked law enforcement folk stabbing evil politicians in the back, but we rarely see that in the time we live in.
Due to sources of energy, machinery and increase in human population, the value of the human being is reduced day by day. This reduction in value of the human being enables the people that rules us to do a new, second selection ; Nature dictates that the rule goes to the strong, and our governments now dictates that the cock suckers will live a better life than the rebelious ones looking for a real and equal justice.
Whatever form it will take, from democracy to dictatorship, corruption will simply be harder and harder to deal with due to this new, second selection.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 01, 2014 09:45 PM |
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xerox said:
Yeah, but the discussion is more like "How much democracy?" rather than "democracy or not".
Can you explain me how did you quantify "democracy"? Cuz I'd really like to know how something can be more or less democratic.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 01, 2014 09:52 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 21:54, 01 Mar 2014.
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More democracy = more mob rule.
Less democracy = less mob rule.
Like Switzerland is more democratic than the US which has a stronger constitution protecting the rights of individuals from the judgement of the people. That doesn't necessarily mean the US is a worse democracy than Switzerland. It depends on how much you value individual rights versus. majority rule.
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted March 01, 2014 10:02 PM |
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Edited by artu at 22:04, 01 Mar 2014.
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The inclusivity of the word evolved in the other direction, for example, if in some under-developed country, the right of women to go to school is banned by majority rule, you will hear public statements such as this:
The spokes man said they see this as a serious violation of democratic rights and they will reconsider the prime ministers visit to XXX.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 01, 2014 10:03 PM |
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xerox said:
More democracy = more mob rule.
Less democracy = less mob rule.
Like Switzerland is more democratic than the US which has a stronger constitution protecting the rights of individuals from the judgement of the people.
So what if that democracy, which derives its power from the majority, is constrained by that same majority to remove the protection of the individual? Will it remain true to what democracy really means and act according to the majority's will? Or will Switzerland refuse, in which case it's no longer a democracy, but a republic? Who has the final say, the Law or the Mob?
There is no "more mob rule" or "less mob rule". There is "mob rule" or "no mob rule". You can't quantify democracy, that's what I wanted to point out.
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GunFred
Supreme Hero
Sexy Manticore
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posted March 01, 2014 10:03 PM |
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Wth, I leave for less than 2 hours to watch the Melody Festival(Xerox did not watch it because he is a traitor and part of the rebel alliance) and when I return my e-mail has been spammed with 31 new messages... 
Just a 1st world problem but it is still annoying when that happens. I really wish this forum had the ability to unsubcribe to topics.
Anyway, about time somebody rightfully defends democracy, gj Artu. 
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted March 01, 2014 10:09 PM |
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There's one incredibly wrong assumption that is the base of all mainstream propaganda that justifies all sorts of atrocities nowadays - that the current form of democracy in the Western countries is the ultimate form of social organisation that in every aspect is vastly superior to any other form of social organisation. There are even "scientific" studies that try to prove that nonsense (Fukuyama). This kind of thinking is dangerous because it's essentially very conservative, it's based on the logical fallacy that if one system is generally better than another, then any element of that system is better than any element of the other and this blocks all criticism of otherwise existing flaws.
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kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted March 01, 2014 10:09 PM |
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What the world really needs is a real way to deal with corruption, like politicians being followed 24 h day 4 years long with a camera crew that you can watch on tv or a vote to kill politicians instead of just impeaching them that would be initiated after x quantity of signatures ( hey totally arguable if your country has the death penalty somewhere ! ) or a law enforcement body that wouldn't be 100 % sucking cocks.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 01, 2014 10:12 PM |
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Stevie said:
Heck, shining light?! You guys are in total pitch darkness and you don't even have a clue. 99% 'muricans still think the country's constitution is the one the founding fathers signed, or that the Federal Reserve is the state bank, or the IRS, or 9/11, or the communist politics... You guys don't even know your own history which is more or less about 400 years. Not to mention you don't even take classes in Logic or study the Law. You should take arms and fight the Gov, that's your only solution right now. And it'll happen, sooner or later, maybe at the next depression when things'll just collapse...
But hey, all hail democracy. Look at all the freedom and advancements and life quality...
wow, you're smart. that's sarcasm, btw. you completely missed the point of my post.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted March 01, 2014 10:13 PM |
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Zenofex said:
There's one incredibly wrong assumption that is the base of all mainstream propaganda that justifies all sorts of atrocities nowadays - that the current form of democracy in the Western countries is the ultimate form of social organisation that in every aspect is vastly superior to any other form of social organisation. There are even "scientific" studies that try to prove that nonsense (Fukuyama). This kind of thinking is dangerous because it's essentially very conservative, it's based on the logical fallacy that if one system is generally better than another, then any element of that system is better than any element of the other and this blocks all criticism of otherwise existing flaws.
It's not definitely the ultimate as in Fukuyama's "end of civilization, that's it guys." but they are preferable to their contemporaries. Just look all around the world, where the rich send their children to school, it's always a very direct tool of observance.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 01, 2014 10:14 PM |
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artu said:
The spokes man said they see this as a serious violation of democratic rights and they will reconsider the prime ministers visit to XXX.
That's because in addition to meaning "majority rule", sometimes "democracy" is just used to mean "yay!" or "I approve", and similarly "undemocratic" means "boo!" or "I disapprove".
____________
Eccentric Opinion
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This thread is pages long: 
