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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 01, 2014 11:40 PM |
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actually, the current definition of democracy is very simple :
democratic : acts in the interests of the USA
dictatorship : acts against the interests of the USA (also may be socialist and give power to lower classes)
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 01, 2014 11:48 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 23:49, 01 Mar 2014.
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I realized this crisis has a lot to do with authority. Supposedly, the Crimean local government which enjoys some autonomy, requested Russian soldiers to come "protect" them. As I understand though, the local government has not the authority to invite the Russian army to Ukrainian territory. Which means both international law and treaties between Ukraine and Russia have been violated. The solution to this crisis must be for the Crimean local government to ask the Russian troops to leave. If Russia doesn't listen, then that's certainly an occupation by all definitions.
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 01, 2014 11:53 PM |
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Does any1 else see an escalation to war happening? Maybe even WW3? Daym, can't find any live streams! I'M MISSING ALL THE FUN! Someone help, please. 
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kipshasz
Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
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posted March 02, 2014 12:06 AM |
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I went around today and set my neighbour's house on fire than sat around and watched. also tossed aroud some Ukraine flags to tense up. It did felt like WW3.
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"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
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GunFred
Supreme Hero
Sexy Manticore
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posted March 02, 2014 12:06 AM |
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Stevie said:
Does any1 else see an escalation to war happening? Maybe even WW3? Daym, can't find any live streams! I'M MISSING ALL THE FUN! Someone help, please.
Nope. First the ukrainian and russian troops have to actually start fighting and then the west would have to join the ukrainians. And like most people here already understand, the west is never going to militarily support Ukraine against Russia. This does remind a little of WW2 where Hitler started to take territory after territory while the west watched in fear of the inevitable. Though it is probably very silly to believe that Russia would plan to start an era of expanion in these modern times. At worst they would see this as an opportunity to regain full control over an important piece of land I think.
Time for bed and I wonder how much will happen during this night. Perhaps Ukraine is re-drawn on the maps when I wake up...
Even scarier though is how many e-mails I will get from posts on this topic during the night...
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kipshasz
Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
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posted March 02, 2014 12:08 AM |
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Edited by kipshasz at 00:17, 02 Mar 2014.
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GunFred said:
Nope. First the ukrainian and russian troops have to actually start fighting
Seeing as Ukrainians greeted the Russians with flovers, I'd say it ain't gonna happen.
Here's a photo, but some retard put watermarks all over the snowing thing.
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"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 02, 2014 12:23 AM |
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The pro-russian Ukrainians on Crimea that is. The nationalists from the western part of the country certainly won't bring flowers. They will bring guns and risk getting killed by Russian soliders, which could trigger a civil war where Crimea actually tries to secede with the support of Russia.
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 02, 2014 12:26 AM |
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As far as we know, that guy with the flowers and the guy taking the shot might both be KGB agents...
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blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted March 02, 2014 01:31 AM |
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Aaaaaannd there are now Russian boots inside Ukraine.
I'm never moving to NYC or DC. If **** ever does get real, those people are so dead.
There are now intelligent human beings that are saying we're risking a 2nd phase Cold War and not just the usual internet swill. Oh Ukraine.
My thoughts:
I think a minor split is ultimately going to be the best solution. Eastern half of the country likes Russia. Western half likes EU. They should just give Russia a little piece of land on the peninsula so they can maintain a naval base their, sort of like how the UK has Gibraltar. There are people complaining that the vast majority of the pro-Russian crowd are themselves people (and the descendents of people) that were planted there by the USSR in the 1940s, but I see this as a rather moot point. Coulda shoulda woulda. It is what it is.
Nor should concessions from the West be seen as an invitation for Russia to continue to expand its political domain. Reason? Because Russia really has no means of achieving this other than in places east of Poland. There isn't a significant enough "pro-Russia" crowd in these other countries for protests of this scale to reoccur. Ukraine is a unique situation because you've actually got a large chunk of the population that is pro-Russia, so why handle the issue as though it is a slippery slope when all evidence is to the contrary? Concessions would not be a further invitation for Russian expansion, because no such conditions for it exist.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 02, 2014 02:22 AM |
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artu said:
my opinion on the matter is quite different from the ideology of the state, as a matter of fact.
would you mind specifying how, exactly?
@ stevie: no problem man, sorry for my misunderstanding. 
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kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted March 02, 2014 02:30 AM |
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Edited by kayna at 02:31, 02 Mar 2014.
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GunFred said:
I think of TRANSPARENCY as the KEY to a corrupt free society.
Yeah. Pretty much. That could even make a dictatorship better than our current democracies.
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kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted March 02, 2014 02:49 AM |
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Fauch said:
actually, the current definition of democracy is very simple :
democratic : acts in the interests of the USA
dictatorship : acts against the interests of the USA (also may be socialist and give power to lower classes)
That made me giggle.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted March 02, 2014 08:02 AM |
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Edited by artu at 08:04, 02 Mar 2014.
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kayna said:
GunFred said:
I think of TRANSPARENCY as the KEY to a corrupt free society.
Yeah. Pretty much. That could even make a dictatorship better than our current democracies.
Except of course, a dictatorship can not be transparent because of its very nature. Transparency is about people having the right to question and investigate things where as dictatorship means a single leader having the authority to do things people can not question.
fred79 said:
artu said:
my opinion on the matter is quite different from the ideology of the state, as a matter of fact.
would you mind specifying how, exactly?
First of all, my government's standards and yours are not the same. I was a kid in the 80's, right after the worst military coup in Turkish history, and a teenager in the 90's, just during the Kurdish civil war. The state's position and the official curriculum was anything but democratic.Secondly, 101 refers to university which is academic, and its curriculum and the academicians are autonomous, anyway. Besides, the evolving definitions of democracy is hardly a platform for conspiracy or ideological propaganda, it's too basic. It's like proposing "Saying monarchies can be symbolic" is a trick the British Royalty plays on us.
Other than "humanity sucks" you don't say much, anyway. And since we wont be purchasing a new humanity, this one will be governed somehow and I don't think if your next president decides to cancel the elections or violates your constitutional rights, you'll be taking it well. This is not directly about ideology anyway, it's about how definitions change according to political science and sociological progress.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted March 02, 2014 08:31 AM |
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Quote:
Nor should concessions from the West be seen as an invitation for Russia to continue to expand its political domain. Reason? Because Russia really has no means of achieving this other than in places east of Poland. There isn't a significant enough "pro-Russia" crowd in these other countries for protests of this scale to reoccur. Ukraine is a unique situation because you've actually got a large chunk of the population that is pro-Russia, so why handle the issue as though it is a slippery slope when all evidence is to the contrary? Concessions would not be a further invitation for Russian expansion, because no such conditions for it exist.
Russia doesn't "expand" like the US does, nor it's its purpose to do so at the moment. For the last decade the focus has been on stopping the "democratic push" toward its borders which always comes with missile shields and NATO bases closer to Russia's European mainland. Strategically the whole story has nothing to do with who likes democracy and who doesn't, it's a geopolitical thing with mostly military considerations - which usually trample all sorts of ideology on state level no matter where you live. Since the collapse of the USSR, Russia has been on the defensive and still is. When the pro-Western governments around its borders are removed, then some sort of expansion may start but it still won't be like the US one. Different priorities.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted March 02, 2014 08:38 AM |
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Edited by artu at 08:40, 02 Mar 2014.
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Quote:
Strategically the whole story has nothing to do with who likes democracy and who doesn't, it's a geopolitical thing with mostly military considerations - which usually trample all sorts of ideology on state level no matter where you live.
See, I was referring to the same layered approach right here:
Quote:
and yes, in every country there is a level of politics that is beyond the public's reach. That level of politics is not government politics but state politics, it's usually built upon decades and it specializes in international affairs.
It would be really swell, if people didn't confuse the two, even though they are not totally independent of each other.
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VOKIALBG
Honorable
Legendary Hero
First in line
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posted March 02, 2014 11:23 AM |
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Edited by VOKIALBG at 11:41, 02 Mar 2014.
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angelito said:
VOKIALBG said:
And I pity the Ukraine guys that did this just for the sake of EU. EU stinks. I won't get into details. It only harm the poor states of Europe.
Maybe because the poor states still don't realize why they became poor? Maybe they just don't want to evolve? Just look at greece. The people there just used all methods to not pay any taxes...and now they wonder why the whole country is bancrupt.
Just imagine where they would be now if they would have stayed outside of the EU...and there are more examples, especially in eastern europe...
You are right in you first statement. I agree. People here are lazy. They fled and went to the Great Western World. So they work there as slaves (not literal, since it was their choice). But the EU only harms us, that left here. Bulgaria was fulling its budget thanks to our customs, well now we must grand them to the EU. The quality of food is much lower after we got into EU. Because now we have huge import of low quality products. We cant even stop it. All the restrictions of the EU harm our farmers. For instance: today the eggs cost about 2 times their price before the EU. And its for the EU politics obligates the farmers to keep their hens happy. How? By having enough space for them. Thats all good, but this means you need funds to erlarge your farm. If you dont have them, you have to kill part of your animals. So half of the hens here got slaughtered. Thanks to the EU. This is ONLY 1 example. I can give you many.
I know, I know... animal rights and etc... but when you live here, and you dont have money to buy eggs... you dont really care for the animals. Lets first people be happy, then the hens and etc.
If you want to evolve, you need to start from somewhere. And starting from where the rest of the EU is already isnt quite right... right? It's kinda not effective to do.
The EU got us in for we have customs, we are one of the keys for Europe and also, we have a lot of people to work the the West, that they need. The EU dont need us as strong and independent state. They need us as the protectorate we are now.
If we were out side the EU, we would be better. I remember when we were outside. It WAS better. People here need the EU only for 1 reason: thanks to EU and EU citizenship they are able to go in UK, Germany, Italy, France, etc and work there for no money (for they are lazy, I admit) and leave what they have here. How we are going to develop a real state if all leave? All left already. But now they feed on the "West", as they call it here. So maybe this will give us chance for progress.
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kipshasz
Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
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posted March 02, 2014 11:42 AM |
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I remember a year ago when I was working at the kraut land and there was Easter coming up, the price of eggs(a pack of 10) in Lithuania was nearly 3 euros, while at the kraut land the same amount of eggs costed 89 cents.
snow logic.
If Ukraine joins EU then the brussels bums will have aditional 45 million white negros.
@Vokial: I'd argue that only the welfare abusing basterds are the majority that fled, as is the situation here. However also very skilled workers have left, for various reasons.
But not to worry, I'm sure soon enough our own countries will be flooded by pathetic little rats who came from war torn middle east.
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"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 02, 2014 12:13 PM |
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@Vokial: I could've swore you were from Romania. That's the exact situation we were in. I still remember one news report about vegetables and fruits, they said they have to have a certain size and shape to fill packaging and EU standards. And they threw away the rest even if they were good. How do you react at something like that?
P.S: This word "evolve" really drives me crazy. States and countries don't evolve, they develop, grow, progress. Please stop using that intrusive word.
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Baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted March 02, 2014 12:41 PM |
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Speaking of animal rights in the Western world.
The EU's not going to impose those over there, is it. There is nothing near this kind of animal cruelty in countries that still go for traditional farms.
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 02, 2014 02:20 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 14:27, 02 Mar 2014.
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Vokial: No, you're in the EU because your government(s) requested getting into the EU. It's not like you were annexed by Brussels.
That your eggs apparently became more expensive is probably because 1. EU rules don't permit your national government to subsidize them. 2. The EU paradoxically imposes its own regulations on farms regarding "animal cruelty" and such (which don't even work because it just ends up with you buying foreign products were standards are even lower). The latter can be prevented if you in the coming EU elections vote for people who want to get rid of such regulation.
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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